|
A little background info is in order. Todangstupid is a the pseudynm we decided to give the atheist in question. Unfortunately after writing a critique on him and his website he decided to have our website closed by tattle-telling to the yahoo authorities. I guess he couldn't take the heat. Also, you'll notice that many references (i.e. links) are not available. They are. But at the risk of having our website closed we decided to take them away.
Anyway, Todangstupid has a little something about his past he wants to hide. We caught Todangstupid thinking in the dark when the subject of defining "beg the question" came up. When challenged on it at a forum in infidelguy's website, this is what Todangstupid had to say:
|
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:05 pm
I wonder if you know what the fallacy of "begging the question" is.
Here it is defined for you:
BEGGING THE QUESTION petito principii - Phrasing a question so that a respondent is restricted to the answer an arguer already presumes will be found.
|
Begging the question is "phrasing a question"? Can't it be put in a statement and not necessarily a question? I guess not. Seems like Todangstupid gave us an example:
"If you don't think God created the world, then who did?"
You can find more at his website here.
We decided to e-mail Todangstupid about the quote:
|
Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 20:29:29 -0700 (PDT)
Dear Todangstupid,
While surfing through the internet I found your website. It's quite
challenging to the faith I must say. I wanted to see what other
Christians though of it. After an extensive search, I happen to chat with a
presuppositionalist who said he had a discussion with you concerning the
definition of "Begging the Question." He claimed you defined it as
"BEGGING THE QUESTION petito principii - Phrasing a question so that a
respondent is restricted to the answer an arguer already presumes will be
found." He directed me to a forum at infidelguy.com and sure enough you
defined it that way! Do you seriously believe that begging the
question is a "phrasing of a question"?
Hoping to hear from you,
Corey W.
|
This is what Todangstupid had to say:
|
Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 09:03:55 -0700
From:"Todangstupid" & gt;
To:"Corey W" <coolguy247365@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: definition of begging the question
You have severe psychological problems. You need help immediately. You
must learn to let things go.
I will be posting this on infidelguy.com. Seriously, seek mental help
immediately.
|
Wow! Todangstupid reminded us of so many fundamental atheists we've confronted in the past.
It appears that Todangstupid has a history of bizarre, uncontrolable, and violent outbursts:
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
After discussing Christian Jason Gastrich, Todangstupid says the following:
Dated: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:29 am
When I find myself going through the f***ing nightmare that dissertation work brings, I find that I want to hunt down bastards like this and kill them.
Just to relieve some tension, mind you....
This prick couldn't even get an interview at a real school.
**Bolds and underscores mine.
|
Wow, the madness! There you have it guys, if Jason Gastrich is murdered we know who the prime suspect is. Oddly, Todangstupid's signature is a quote from the great moral sage, Socrates: "Those that know the good - do the good." Uh, it looks like Todangstupid ain't following Socrates' own advice.
Anyway, couldn't you have come up with a better response than that to Corey? So, Corey responds:
|
Todangstupid,
Are you actually denying that you wrote what you did on infidelguy.com?! It's right there in black and white! With all due respect, you'd have to be mental to think that begging the question is a "phrasing of a question"! Is that why you're taking it out on me? Anyway, i'm a member at infidelguy.com, you can tell everybody I said hello. And you can pass on this e-mail if you'd like. I would like to know their reaction to your definition. Anyway, thanks for nothing.
Corey W.
PS Would you not mind if I pass your e-mail along to a buddy of mine?
|
Todangstupid's response:
|
You are in desparate need of mental health services. Please, please get
some help quickly.
|
Todangstupid ain't finished! He sends us another e-mail:
|
Your bitterness and anger are indicators of serious mental problems.
You need to seek mental help immediately.
|
Corey responds:
|
Hey Todangstupid, you defined "begging the quesion" the same exact way on your website. Go ahead, look it up. LOL, deny it all you want, but you still remain to be the mental one. Anyway, since you're sending the e-mail to infidelguy's for all to see I guess it wouldn't hurt to pass your e-mail along to my friend. By the way, he's making a website where he actually mentions you. Thanks a bunch.
Corey W.
|
Todangstupid writes back:
|
Please have an adult, or someone with an IQ over 70 read this to you,
slowly. Then seek out mental help for your anger issues.
CIRCULAR LOGIC Any argument wherein the conclusion to an argument is
held to support the premise just as the premises are held to support the
conclusion. In short: using a conclusion as a premise.
Example: We must believe the there is a God because it is so taught in
the Holy Scriptures, and we must believe in the veracity of the Holy
Scriptures because they are the word of God"
Descartes, in his famous works to prove the existence of God actually
quoted such an argument on the first page of his book "Meditations", but
he noted that others might consider it circular logic.
Example 2:
Person 1) I am the pope!
Person 2) Prove it
Person 1) dont you dare question the pope!
BEGGING THE QUESTION petito principii - A specific form of circular
logic, begging the question occurs when one phrases a question so that a
respondent is restricted to the answer an arguer already presumes will
be found.
"If you don't think God created the world, then who did?"
In other words, the arguer presumes that some intelligent entity did
create the world.
Another example is the famous Soviet claim that their cosmonauts proved
the non-existence of God when they "failed to bump into any angels"
while orbiting the earth - the question presumes that angels could only be
within the range of space they traversed and that they must be
corporeal (physical) beings.
Warning catchphrase - no general catchphrase - but watch for an overall
restrictive nature to a question. Additional warning: Question begging
may not even be a purposeful deception - A question phrased within the
epistemological assumptions of an physicalist/atheist may be inherently
question-begging to a fideistic theist. (I.e. "If God is real, point to
him!")
COMPLEX QUESTION A 2 part question that , like begging the question,
compels one to supply the answer sought. Everyone knows the most famous
example of the complex question fallacy : "Do you still beat your wife?"
If this is answered, it becomes an argument with the conclusion that
you do in fact beat your wife. The problem is that a complex question is
really two questions that demand one answer. This can be committed out
of ignorance, but it can also be a purposeful deception.
Another form of this fallacy is to ask for an explanation of something
which is untrue or not yet established.
MEANINGLESS QUESTION Questions with statements that commit the
existential error - i.e., items that do not exist. The ultimate example: What
happens when an irresistible force meets and immovable object? The
proper response to this question is to point out that if there were a
irresistible force, ipso facto there could not be an immovable object (and/or
vice versa.) Most meaningless questions are equally incoherent, because
they are basically built upon contradictions, or make reference to non
existent entities.
|
Corey responds with:
|
Todangstupid,
I know how you defined it. In case you forgot, I said I even found it on your website. You practically pasted the whole thing in your e-mail here. For the record, Todangstupid, in case you forget again: "I KNOW HOW YOU DEFINED 'BEGGING THE QUESTION'"!
Hope you get the confirmation,
Corey W.
|
Todangstupid writes:
|
Then you realize you are an idiot. You need mental help immediately
|
Corey writes:
|
Hey Todangstupid,
I'm not so sure why you think I'm bitter or angry, but at least, I know you are. I'll be sure to let my friend know about this e-mail. I just hope he publishes it on his website.
Thanks,
Corey W.
|
He writes:
|
because you have carried on this personal vendetta for months, using
multiple phoney names on infidelguy.com
And now you write me here.
You have a severe mental problem, seek aid at once.
|
Corey writes:
|
Hello Todangstupid,
So, let me get this straight. I first e-mail you telling you that you defined "begging the question" in a peculiar way and I even quote you, then you tell me that what "begging the question" is repeating your same quote and the very same thing on your website when you already knew I knew this and I even told you that and now you think I'm the idiot? And, you think I always had it in for you for months? For the record, Todangstupid, I visited your website about 3-4 weeks ago. So, I guess you can say I had a "vendetta" against you for weeks. Anyway, I think our conversation is coming to an end just about now. Because all you're doing is attacking me personally.
Anyway, it was interesting,
Corey W.
|
When Todangstupid Attacks!!!
Wow, Todangstupid is really pissed off now! He sends us another e-mail:
|
Then learn how to read, your answers are all there.
But you do not care, because you are a mental patient with an angry
personal vendetta
|
And he sends another!!:
|
You have severe mental problems. You sincerely and seriously need help
immediately. You continue to hold this anger and agression towards me
from the time I refuted you on infidelguy.com. All of your claims were
already refuted there, and there is no need for me to refute you again.
Please, please, please, get some help. You need to learn how to grow
and let things go. This is not a personal attack, it is a sincere and
honest appraisal of your problems.
Please seek help.
|
And another!!!:
|
I already refuted your claims on infidelguy.com months ago. You need to
get over your hurt from this fact. You need to seek out professional
help. You need to stop this.
This is not an insult, it is a real plea for you to learn how to deal
with your anger and your hurt. You must let this go. You must get on
with your life. Please, seek out treatment at once.
Please.
|
Corey writes:
|
Todangstupid,
For the record: do you think I'm presupp?
Corey W.
|
Todangstupid finishes with:
|
You need mental help. I am serious. This is not a joke. Please try a
college clinic, they are inexpensive. Tell them about your anger issues,
and your inability to let things go.
Please, do it asap.
|
Corey concludes:
|
Todangstupid,
You DO think I'm presupp! And you think I need mental help? This conversation is over.
Bye,
Corey W.
PS Michael Jackson is actually presupp.
PPS That was a joke, by the way.
|
Todangstupid still ain't finished - the madness!:
|
This is not a joke, nor an insult. You have carried an angry, hateful
grudge for months. You have created numerous phoney accounts on
infidelguy.com to continue your attacks, now, months later, you write emails
pretending to be someone else yet again.
These are all signs of a serious problem. You really do need help. Try
a college counseling center, they offer therapy for very cheap.
Good luck with your problems, you can learn to overcome your obsessions
if you try.
Take care
|
In conclusion, dear readers, we've learned that ad hominem attack won't work when justifying one's idea of what "begging the question" means. Did you get that, Todangstupid? You psycho with a bad haircut.
Todangstupid is Still NOT Finished!!!
|
Sat, 15 May 2004 11:35:29 -0700
From: "Todangstupid"
To: coolguy247365@yahoo.com
Hi there
A friend of mine told me about you and your frequent need to
continually discuss an issue that you were soundly refuted on. (He let me use
this email address.)
I just wanted to make sure that you were seeking professional help for
your problems, from what he showed me, you are in desparate help and
have serious anger issues.
Good luck
|
Thanks Todangstupid. Anyway...
Here's a better definition of "begging the question" that comes from the Skeptics Dictionary:
|
begging the question
Begging the question is what one does in an argument when one assumes what one claims to be proving.
An argument is a form of reasoning whereby one gives a reason or reasons in support of some claim. The reasons are called premises and the claim one tries to support with them is called the conclusion.
If one's premises entail one's conclusion, and one's premises are questionable, one is said to beg the question.
|
Read anything about "phrasing a question"? I hope you understand that you can still beg the question without putting the statment in a question-phrase. Like so:
"Capital punishment is wrong because it is an example of doing something we have no business doing, namely, taking a person's life."
See?
Yet we were unable to find a similar definition to ol' Todangstupid's that describes begging the question as "phrasing a question". Maybe you guys can help us (just be sure you have a reliable source). Quickly now, the clock is ticking.
|