> Can anybody verify this Jefferson episode?  I have seen this in print
> several times, but never with any citation or reference.  The most recent
> was in the Spokane Daily newspaper, the Spokesman-Review in an editorial
> by Joseph Laconte of the Heritage Foundation.
>
> (start quote)
>
> "One Sunday morning during Thomas Jefferson's presidency, a friend stopped
> him on his was to Christ Church, then meeting on Capitol Hill.  The
> president had a prayer book tucked under his arm. The man was incredulous. 
> "You do not believe a word in it," he said.  Jefferson, pilloried as the
> village atheist during his first presidential campaign was unruffled.  "Sir,"
> he replied, "no nation as ever yet existed or been governed without
> religion. Nor can be."  He explained that , as the nation's chief executive,
> he was obliged to give religion its public due."
>
> (end quote)
>
> To me this has all the making of a Jefferson "founder's legend"  (as opposed
> to an urban legend).
> I have searched, in vain, in all the Jefferson archieves and papers, but
> find nothing.
>
> Any suggestions as to where I can actually verify this?

I am sorry, but I am unable to provide an authentic source for the story.
According to "The Religious Life of Thomas Jefferson," by Charles R.
Sanford, "While president, Jefferson not only referred to God frequently in
his public addresses and studied the Bible in private but took pains to
attend divine services in the House of Representatives."  Therefore, the
basic premise of the story admits of its possibility.  Sanford also relates
that in a letter to Jefferson dated June 28, 1786, "Francis Hopkinson
promised to send Jefferson a copy of the 'new Book of Common Prayer,'" so we
can assume that Jefferson had a copy of the prayer book.  But the key
statement, "no nation has ever yet existed or been governed without
religion. Nor can be." is very un-Jeffersonian, in my opinion.  I believe I
have seen that statement or one similar to it said by either Washington or
perhaps Adams or Madison, but not by Jefferson.  The statement is included
in several places on the Internet, and one has it in this form:

"[Prof. Gertrude] Himmelfarb relates the following account of a conversation
between Jefferson and an unknown interlocutor, drawn from historical
documents recently discovered in Washington:
'Sir,' said Mr. J. 'No nation has ever yet existed or been governed without
religion. Nor can it be. The Christian religion is the best religion that
has been given to man and I, as chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to
give it the sanction of my example.'"

It is hard to reconcile that statement with Jefferson's "equal opportunity"
attitude towards ALL religions, or with the following in a different
context:

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children
since the introduction of Christianity have been burnt, tortured, fined and
imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity." --Thomas
Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVII, 1782. ME 2:223

On the other hand, Jefferson did recognize the value of the Christian
religion in its purest form:

"The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the
clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity
of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to
liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind." --Thomas
Jefferson to Moses Robinson, 1801. ME 10:237

It may be that the source cited on one of the webpages has further
documentation:

One Nation, Two Cultures
by Gertrude Himmelfarb.
Alfred A, Knopf, 146 pp, 1999.
Suggested Retail Price, $23.00

In any case, the incident and Jefferson's statement is not likely to be
found in any of Jefferson's papers.  It apparently is an incident related by
the person speaking to Jefferson, and exists as a story told by someone
acquainted with Jefferson, not by Jefferson himself.  Even if actually
reported by a contemporary, however, its accuracy might still be suspect.
Frankly, the language doesn't sound like Jefferson to me, though that is
just a guess on my part, and I could be wrong.

Nevertheless, I will make some inquiries from some knowledgeable friends,
and if I learn anything more, I will get back in touch with you.

. . . . .

In looking further into this very interesting question, I came upon the
following authentic quote from Jefferson that would tend to support the key
statement.  This quote was in response to a statement falsely attributed to
Jefferson:

"The importance of religion to society has too many founded supports to need
aid from imputations so entirely unfounded."  TJ to James Fishback,
September 19, 1816.

Notice especially the first phrase.  Apparently, Jefferson felt that
religion had importance to society.  Jefferson also wrote the following,
which might tend to make some persons think he felt that religion was a
detriment to society:

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of
ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always
avail themselves for their own purposes." --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander
von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

But obviously, the presence of religion does not necessitate "a
priest-ridden people."  It would be a mistake to move from Jefferson's
criticism of SOME religious practices and beliefs to a criticism of ALL
religion.

. . . . .

I have received the following from a correspondent:

> Interesting!  I vaguely recall seeing this "quote" in the past.  I can only
> confirm that Jefferson did attend interdenominational worship services at The
> Capitol in 1801.  He was the one to approve having services there.  In
> addition to King James Bibles, he also owned his father's Book of Common
> Prayer in which he recorded family marriages, births, and deaths.
>
> I have a notation about a letter Jefferson wrote to John Bacon in April 1802
> in which he said something about not wanting his administration  to be a
> "government without religion" but simply one which will
> "strengthen...religious freedom."  I do not have a source for or a copy of
> this letter, and I could not locate it at the LC site.