oddments from the octave archive (1)
Feb 23 2001 03:19:20 EST
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
[octave] Fwd...Musical Alchemy
In discussing the enneagram/octave I've often felt the lack of a grasp of
musical theory, obviously it would be helpful. Stuff on the musical modes
would be useful too.
Meanwhile, I came across the following interesting post while searching for
Ramon Lull. Lull is one of the more obvious sources of the enneagram. The
concept of "musical alchemy" immediately brings to mind Gurdjieff's
ennneagram...
-j
-------------Musical Alchemy----------------------------
From: bogus address (bogus@purr.demon.co.uk)
Subject: musical alchemy
Newsgroups: rec.music.early
Date: 2000-11-29 15:51:02 PST
The following comes from Thomas Norton's "Ordinal of Alchemy" (1477),
a verse treatise on the subject. This is from a chapter on, more or
less, experimental procedure. He parallels alchemical method first
with grammar (selecting compatible materials for the work) and rhetoric
(planning the right sequence of steps) and then uses arithmetic and
music to describe the quantitative aspect. (Raymonde = Ramon Lull).
Ioyne them to-gedir also Arismetically,
Bi subtile mombres proporcionally,
wherof a litil mencion made there was
when Boecius seid: Tu numeris elementa ligas.
Ioyne your elementis Musicallye,
For ij causis: one is for melodye
whiche theire accordis wil make to your mynde
The trewe effecte when that ye shall fynde;
And al-so for like as Dyapason,
with diapente & with diatesseron,
with ypate ypaton & lekanos Muse[d],
with accordis which in musike be [vsed],
with their proporcions causen Armonye,
Moch like proporcions be in Alchymye,
As for the grete nombres actualle;
But for the secret nombres intellectuall,
ye most seche them, as I seid bifore,
Owte of Raymonde & owt of Bacons loore.
The interesting thing about this is that the ratios of diapason (2:1),
diapente (3:2) and diatesseron (4:3) are the sort of simple proportions
you get in inorganic chemistry, e.g. something like 2Sb + 3S -> Sb2S3
(making antimony sulphide, an alchemically important substance). Music
is here being used to describe the laws of proportion that were only
later explained by Daltonian atomism.
What are "ypate ypaton & lekanos"? The glossary to the edition I've
got doesn't hazard a guess.
Has anybody seen other parallels like this between music and alchemy
in this period?
I'm guessing that by "melodye" he means the phenomenally observable
sequence of changes in the materials as they react, but maybe somebody
has a better idea? The whole book is written with the usual exoteric/
esoteric duality of alchemical texts, but the practical predominates,
so there has to be some specific chemical meaning.
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Archive for Enneagram & Octave Discussion List: Message #258
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Date:
Mar 21 2001 04:02:52 EST
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Re: [octave] ogham link
Um, and the site was
http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/library/oghamdiv.htm
----------------------------------------------
What I've called the "celtic enneagram", more precisely "an alternative
glyph of the enneagram encountered in neo-druidic and witchcraft
ccircles".....continues to excite some interest.
I encountered it associated with a spellcraft (or "active meditation
technique" or something if you prefer) associated with the ogham tree
alphabet. This does not seem to have been published anywhere, and every now
and then I have a surf of the net looking for signs of this particular
tradition.
In doing so I turned up the following neo-druid site which may be of
interest.
-j
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Archive for Enneagram & Octave Discussion List: Message #225
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Date:
Oct 23 2000 01:10:54 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Re: [octave] Enneagram of Divination?
Jonathan writes as below. I think Bennett wrote that the enneagram was used
for divination but didn't give details.
I've see the "Celtic" glyph of the enneagram used for divination with Tarot
cards.
You ask for people to identify themselves in terms of Personality Type. I
guess you'd call me a "Five with a Four Wing"....that's usually the sort of
feedback I get anyway. Which is to say I'm an Avarice Type with a sideline
in Envy. I think people often forget too easily that the Personality Types
are essentially "sin types" referring to False Personality in Gurdjieff's
terms. They are not like star signs.
In terms of the "Essence Types" which some people on this list (not me) are
cluey about, I'd claim to be a Solar.....but so I gather does everyone! Some
of them gotta be right though!
Luv, J
> Hey,
> My name's Jonathan, and I haven't been active in
>this list to much. I'm 18, and a Four with a Five
>wing (but I also feel my Three wing). I have a
>one-to-one subtype. But I really feel sort of like a
>Two with a One wing. What are everybody else's types?
> Can the enneagram be used for divination? I would
>really like to know.
> Thanks ALOT,
> -Jonathan
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Archive for Enneagram & Octave Discussion List: Message #222
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Date:
Oct 17 2000 02:51:59 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
[octave] A Man and His Goat
At least some of the people likely to read this will remember that in the
introduction to _Meetings with Remarkable Men_ Gurdjieff mentions the old
puzzle of the the Man, the Wolf, the Goat and the Cabbage. The y are on the
bank of a river and have to get to the other side. They have a boat but the
trouble is that the man can only take one of his charges at a time (it is a
_very_ big Cabbage, we must assume). And the trouble with that is that left
to themselves the Wolf will eat the Goat and the Goat will eat the cabbage.
Not necessarily in that order.
Gurdjieff remarks to the effect (I don't have _Meetings_ open in front of
me) that this story is a good figure of the work we must do, as we must
preserve the Wolf etc in each of us, and it takes an extra trip across the
river to do this. (One might object that all the Wolf seems to be risking is
dinner, but that is apperently by the way.) On the face of it, it is another
of Mr G's rather odd remarks which don't seem to lead anywhere much.
Anyway just the other day I came across a site, which I now can't find,
which pointed out that the Crossing Puzzle is an enneagram. It seems to be
an octave (and thus enneagrammable), and rather an interesting and thought
provoking one too; in the light of Mr G's remarks and also structurally....
DO All on the near river bank.
RE Goat crossed to far bank.
MI Boat returned to river bank
=>MI-FA
FA Wolf (or Cabbage) crossed to far bank
SOL Goat returned to near river bank
=>SOL-LA
LA Cabbage (or Wolf) crossed to far bank.
SI Boat returned to near river bank (to fetch Goat)
DO All on the far bank.
The relationship between SI and DO is one of the areas of the enenagram I
notice my difficulties with, and this octave gives me food for thought on
that. I think the above is right, even though at first thought I expected
that "All on the far bank" would be at SI.
I'd be grateful for anyone's thoughts. And has anyone come across the link
which made this connection for me?
-Jeremy
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Archive for Enneagram & Octave Discussion List: Message #223
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Date:
Oct 18 2000 01:05:38 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
[octave] Lifestage Enneagram
This refers back to earlier posts on this list, some of them roughly around
about message 150. Because its been a while I feel the need to briefly recap
some old stuff before making a tentative new point.
There are six permutations of the "three forces", "Active Passive and
Neutralizing" as they are sometimes called, or "1, 2 and 3" by the
convenient convention. It is clear from Bennet material (and implied in
Ouspensky material) that these six permutations can refer to the "three
shocks" of the enneagram (ie, DO, =>MI-FA, =>SOL-LA) to give enneagrams of
different types.
So, Bennett's "Kitchen Octave" is a 321 enneagram. The Kitchen itself is
force 3, the raw Food is 2 and the community of Diners is 1. Or the Ray of
Creation is a 123 enneagram. It may be that the Food Diagram eneagram is a
213.
Now, I've proposed that the "enneagram of personality" (the Palmer/Riso/etc
stuff) can be related to the process enneagram by considering the Lifestage
Enneagram. The Lifestage Enneagram I've suggested (working from a hint in
published Nicoll material) follows. The basic concept is that each lifestage
has "legitimate tasks", and the Personality types can be seen as fixations
on the legitimate tasks of each lifestage. The relation between enneagrams
(such as the lifestage enneagram) and static or reified enneagrams(such as
the enneagram of personality) has been little explored.
Anyway, the Lifestage Enneagram you may recall:
Do-Unborn (Relates to Type 9, fixated on pure being, tasklessness)
Re-Baby (Type 8, fixated on survival)
Mi-Toddler (Type 7, fixated on tasting the world)
=>Society....Type 6, fixated on reaction to social control
Fa-Child, (Type 5, fixated on learning, making sense of world)
Sol-Youth (Type 4, fixated on individuation)
=>Mating....Type 3, fixated on image building
La-Parent (Type 2, fixated on nurturing)
Ti-Elder (Type 1, fixated on judging)
So much for recapitulation.
What "type" of enneagram is the Lifestage Enneagram? I think its a 231,
based on the feeling that the =>Mi-Fa shock was Neutralizing and the
=>Sol-La Active.
Now, the Lifestage Enneagram begins with birth. Gurdjieff seemed to suggest
that what begins at birth is Essence insofar as that can be distinguished
from the Body. (Sometimes he treated Essence as including the Body when he
was dealing with both in contradistinction to Personality. The clearest
treatment of Essence and Body as distinct things I have found in the
_Views_)
So the Lifestage Enneagram begins as a Do at the =>MI-FA point of the Body
Enneagram. Presumably the Body Enneagram begind with the DO of conception.
(I would imagine that quickening is its RE and functionality of the foetal
lungs its MI, but that needn't be settled for my present point.)The Body
Enneagram reaches its second DO at the =>Sol-Fa point of the Lifestage
Enneagram, ie a new conception occurs (in our very idealized model of
course).
Now the possibility has already been discussed on this list that with
octaves interesecting in this way then the shock points can be treated as
holding their character for all the relevant octaves. So if the shocks at
=>Mi-Fa and and =>Sol-La of the Lifestage Enneagram are Neutralizing or 3
and Active and 1 respectively then those shock points in connected
enneagrams can be treated as the same.
At this stage I better do a diagram:
BODY LIFESTAGE("ESSENCE") PERSONALITY SHOCK
DO=> ACTIVE(1)
RE
MI
=> Do=> PASSIVE(2)
FA Re(Baby)
SOL Mi (Toddler)
=> =>Society =>do NEUTRAL(3)
LA Fa (Child) re
TI La (Adolescent) mi
DO=> =>Mating => ACTIVE(1)
[ETC]
This would suggest that the Body Enneagram was "123" enneagram which in
Collin's list of enneagram characters would make it an enneagram of
"Growth or Multiplication". This seems possible. The Personality Enneagram
would be associated with "Corruption" as "312" enneagram; Karl on this list
has associated the 312 with "lies". This seems to fit the picture of
personality given in the material.
(Mind you, I'm not trying to oversimplify the picture. One of the things
which happens at the transition from toddlerhood to childhood is the impact
of the wider society, but other things happen too. The difficulty with
framing useful octaves is with simplifying the picture enough to see basic
principles.)
Anyway, hoping this is useful for someone somewhere...even if only as a
Force 2 influence! I'd appreciate criticism and debate. Instruction, even.
Luv, Jeremy `
Archive for Enneagram & Octave Discussion List: Message #233
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Date:
Nov 07 2000 01:19:21 EST
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Re: [octave] Goats, Alec Edgington
Found it, the Goat stuff I mean. The site is:
http://www.oocities.org/Athens/9212/wgcm9grm.html
I'll think about this analysis, but it seems in any case quite likely that
Gurdjieff's little parable is correctly placed on an enneagram.-j
................................................................
The Enneagram of the River Crossing
Description of the Enneagram
The River Crossing
Point 9, the do, represents the initial and final positions: the man and his
three charges, first on one bank and then on the other.
The octave between do and do is the crossing of the river.
The notes re, mi, fa, sol, la, and si, occupy the points 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, and
8, respectively. Points opposite one another on the
enneagram represent positions which are identical on opposite banks. In this
way the enneagram is the river. The enneagram is
a moving symbol.
The man is operative at the points 3, 6, and 9. At point 3, he must guard
the wolf lest it destroy the goat. At point 6, he must
guard the cabbage lest it be destroyed by the goat. At point 9, he must
guard the goat lest it destroy the cabbage or be
destroyed by the wolf.
The goat is the heart. The man's journey begins and ends with the heart. But
he must make a sacrifice. The long dark night of
the soul comes between points 4 and 5. Here the man must carry the goat
back. This is the extra crossing to which Gurdjieff
referred.
Alec Edgington
_________________________________________________________________________
nded Headers
Date:
Oct 08 2000 23:10:55 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
[octave] Astrology and Enneagram- Mansions of the Moon
Gurdjieff made some intriguing remarks about astrology, directly and by
implication.
One of the "by implication" remarks that doesn't seem to have been widely
picked up on concerns his reference to the number of human essence-types (as
reported by Ouspensky in that "Miracalous" book). That is, that the number
of human types was 12 or "some say" 27.
Elsewhere different numbers were stated or implied, but the common factor is
the relation of essence-type to astrology. The "12 types", obviously seem to
refer to the 12 signs of traditional astrology.
But 27? It is 3x9, of course, but if there was a straightforward
astrological reference to 27 analogous to the signs; should we not look at
that reference in hopes of enlightenment?
As a matter of fact there is; the number 27 refers to the obscure but very
ancient (well, so it is said) and certainly widespread system of astrology
based on the "Mansions of the Moon". A Mansion of the Moon is the arc the
moon travels in a day; something over 13 degrees. In a year the sun travels
through 27 "Mansions". For more about this see the following site:
http://jyotish.net/nakshatras.htm
Another version of "M of the M" is based on the approximation of the Mansion
at 13 degrees, yielding 28 Mansions which the sun crosses in 13 days each.
This seems to be the form current in Arabic astrology.( I don't have the
reference to hand but seem to recall that Ouspensky talks of "28" types
somewhere and also of "18" types...18 types would seem to be a reference to
an Egyptian astrology of 18 signs)
This form is clearly the base of a system of astrology I encountered in
witchcraft circles which combined 13 months of 28 days (the widely available
"Tree Calendar") with another cycle of 28 13 day periods. (The odd day of
the solar year being treated separately). The 13 day periods follow cycles
of seven (related to the coloured 'rays' of theosophy which clearly relate
in turn to the enneagram typology) different for day and night....adding the
day and night of the odd Year Day makes nine, of course.
The coloured rays of the Theosphical typology appear clearly to be the basis
of Gurdjieff's remarks on astrology in "Views From the Real World". There he
refers to seven ("or nine") coloured rays which determine essence type.....
The witchcraft system I encountered may well be pastiche, I make no claims
for it.
But the realtionship of the Mansions of the Moon to Gurdjieff's typology
seems sort of likely.
Is anyone out there well-informed about the Mansions....?
http://www.avesta.org/picatrix.htm
Date:
Apr 25 2001 22:55:26 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Re: [octave] Concerning Inner triangles & Plants
I wrote:
>Incidentally, it seems to me that the Plant Octave as sketched above would
>be a 321 (or Neutral-Passive-Active) octave like the Kitchen Octave etc.
Urk...well, one might expect it alternatively to be a 123 or "growth" triad?
There are a lot of issues here. The relation of "evolutionary" and
"involutionary" octaves is an issue I find difficult. (I've always
assumed that this is aka "ascending" and "descending" octaves, anyone care
to dispute this assumption?). In the real world evolutionary and
involutionary processes are entangled........
Before going on I want to acknowledge the point that this difficulty is
especially clear where we are talking of natural processes, where there is
no clear "hierarchy of animacy" between the elements of the triad. Consider
for example the Kitchen Octave where the triad is Kitchen-Food-Community, it
is fairly easy to see that Food should be passive; and also it makes sense
(even if not quite so intuitively obvious) that the Community is the active
participant in the triad. [Perhaps, and I merely throw this up for thought,
we should recognise a "seventh" triad, which might be thought of as "333"?]
Anyway, still looking at the Kitchen Octave, we have the triad:
3(kitchen)
(community)1 2(food)
(Hope yr browser doesn't distort that!)It is interesting to see that the
Cooking Octave will be a 213...we would seem to have Gurdjieff's, or at
least Beelzebub's authority for this as the baking of bread is given in
_Beelzebub's Tales_ as an example of the law of three. In the Kitchen Octave
the cooking process takes place between 2 and 1 at the "notes" fa-so; so the
Cooking Octave is not the Food-Community-Kitchen octave which sounds as do
at Food (ie at =>mi-fa). However I think it an interesting strong hypothesis
worth investigating that this octave will be 213, and the octave beginning
at Community will be a 132......
This would suggest two "families" of octave types:
321, 213 and 132 (that is, two evolutionary and one involutionary),
and 123,231 and 312 (contrariwise).
I'm sort of meandering towards my point....the Cooking Octave is 213, and is
normally considered an "ascending" or "evolutionary" octave, yes? (The same
as the first octave in the Food Diagram). The octave 312 is usually
considered to be "corruption" or the like. We might assume that the souring
of milk by bacterial action is likely to be a 312 octave. The Active
ingredient would be the bacteria. (By the strong hypothesis suggested above
the octave beginning with the bacteria would be 123, "growth", which makes
sense.). This octave is of course the formal opposite of the Cooking Octave;
213, 312; although it can also be used to prepare food as in yoghurt (etc).
Maybe the study of the relation between "ascending" and "descending" octaves
could begin here? That was what I was getting to! Can anyone make comments
on the octaves of cooking/souring?
sees yas,
jeremy
Archive for Enneagram & Octave Discussion List: Message #270
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Date:
Apr 26 2001 20:58:48 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Again Re: [octave] Concerning Inner triangles & Plants
Yer.....triads and all that. Collin stuff has the most detail, but it seems
clearly to be the same system underlying Bennett's extended discussions on
the enneagram.......I would take all detail with a grain of salt, but. The
only real source of knowledge, I strongly believe (ah doo be-leeeve) is
working with actual examples and seeing how they work out.
The site I referred to in the last post, I just found it half-an-hour ago,
really is worth a visit. Again:
http://www.rahul.net/raithel/otfw/third/sixProcesses.html
At this point, I may as well publish a schema used in some pagan circles (no
pun intended on this occasion):
123 ("active spirit")
231 ("fire") 312 ("earth")
___ ("neutral. spirit")
321 ("air") 132 ("water")
213 ("passive spirit")
"In many counsellors there is wisdom" and I quote this stuff purely in that,
um, spirit. Leaving aside the elemental attributions, the polarities are
perhaps worth looking at.
-j
Date:
Apr 26 2001 20:17:03 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Re: [octave] Concerning Inner triangles & Plants
An interesting Collin-lineage page discussing the "six processes", or the
triads.
http://www.rahul.net/raithel/otfw/third/sixProcesses.html
The following is a sample of the page (chosen for the obvious reason of its
especial relevance to this thread).-j
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The Process 312
The classic example here is the virus. Not life itself, but a form that acts
on life, ultimately reducing life to matter. In human affairs, an example is
a repressive government, such as the former Soviet system, that applied a
form restricting the livelihood of citizens, ultimately destroying the
source on which it fed. On a more psychological level, formatory mind acts
with this triad: Form is applied to a new idea and the new idea is
killed.
The Process 231
An estranged couple who's marriage is revitalized through marriage
counseling is an example. A broken bone aligned with a splint to help
restore its proper functioning is another. An infection treated with an
antibiotic to restore health still another. The type here is the loving
Venusian.
The Process 132
Life (1), acting on form (3), produces matter (2). I smash the pot.
Life, that is active force, is applied to a form, resulting in the
destruction of that form into constituent matter. The type is Mars, the
gland is the
adrenal, the characteristics of this stage are bonding/splitting (what I've
elsewhere called "affinities".) This is a "descending octave", because
we begin with life and end with matter. Interesting to note that this stage
always proceeds any real development, which should make it clear to
us that "descending octave" is no kind of value judgment, and descending
octaves may be right action in the proper place.
The Process 213
The food diagram is the pre-eminent representation of this triad in the
human being. Pre-eminent because it includes all levels of matter refined
or possibly refined within us, and shows in it a form which is just an
anthopomorphized enneagram. Regarding food, for example, the triad often
begins outside of us: We first cook the potatoes or beans (potato - 2; fire
- 1; cooked potato - 3), then chew it (cooked potato - 2; chewing - 1;
masticated potato - 3); and so on. Or we receive a neutral visual impression
- 2; we divide our attention, energizing that impression - 1; a finer
hydrogen results - 3, to be wasted, used, or further refined.
The Process 321
We apply a form to matter and bring it to life. A Shakespeare uses mere
words to create something that moves and informs people for centuries.
A Leonardo mixes mere pigments and creates art capable of transmitting
objective knowledge across 500 years. An anonymous Chinese
sculptor forms a Buddha out of local stone that inspires receptive viewers
through millennia.
A teacher brings to life a form in the presence of students. The students
imitate the form first, apply it in their lives, and, if successful, create
new life by the use of it. Enabling them to pass on the example of the use
of form on matter to create life.
The fourth way is just such a form designed to bring life. The matter it is
applied to is the student. We study the system, practice the ideas,
apply it to ourselves, and gradually convert it from an external set of
ideas to a living teaching by living it.
The Seventh Process
This process is the source process of the six processes, it contains them
all in that it is not ordered one way or another, but all forces act in the
same place at the same time.
Archive for Enneagram & Octave Discussion List: Message #272
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Date:
May 29 2001 20:39:05 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
[octave] Fwd: [GoldenMean] Re: Octaves
Having at last realized that to work with the enneagram I must get some
proper grasp of music I've taken up the recorder....to the unspeakable pain
of all my relatives and ex-friends.
I better also forward the end of this correspondence from Golden Mean, to
which thanks.
-j
--- In GoldenMean@egroups.com, Jelke Wispelwey wrote:
> Hi Durwood and John,
>
> I've done a bit of piano-tuning in my days (as a hobby) and, if I
> remember correctly, the equal temperament is simply dividing the
octave
> of 12 semi-tones up into parts with an equal relationship to each
other.
> This ratio is, of course, 1/12th of the total which is approximately
> 1.06. Thus every next semi-tone is tuned to be 1.06 times the
previous
> one. Clearer??
>
> Jelke.
Jelke-
That's quite correct - to achieve equal temperament. But its
NOT "1/12th of the total" of anything. It's 1.059... and it is the
TWELFTH ROOT OF TWO - that number that you would multiply times
itself twelve times to get two - or an octave. It imposes a
logarithmic function on the scale to get exactly even sounding spaces
between each note.
The underlying frequencies do not increase so nicely. If we tune a
note to 120 cps, the next version of that note an octave up is 240
cps. Well lets just make the spacing ten cps per half step for our
twelve half steps on our way up from this starting point. But wait!
The next version of this note another octave up is 480 cps! Do we
suddenly jump to 20 cps spacing per half-step in this next octave if
we want twelve equal steps again?? No. Try sing actual A 440 and then
A 880 and then A 1,760 to play with this. Those define two real
successive octaves on the real piano.
So you are using the twelfth root of two and it spaces the notes
evenly like gradually wider and wider waves coming from the spot
where you tossed a pebble into a still pond of water. Very
convenient. It also slightly abandons the simple ratios of actual in-
tuneness (3:2 the fifth, 5:4 the major third, 4:3 the fourth) - all
except for the 2:1. It's brilliant. It works. It leaves us a little
out of tune, however.
Regards, JB