random oddments from octave archive
Archive for Enneagram & Octave Discussion List: Message #267
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Date:
Apr 23 2001 23:32:15 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
[octave] Again Homer and enneagram...
On the theory (forwarded here in a recent post) that Homer's Odyssey
contains an account of the enneagram....I've just been looking through
Robert Graves' discussion of Odysseus' journey in his _Greek Myths_. Graves
reckons that the Odyssey is constructed out of (at least) two parts, the
quasi-historical legend of Odysseus' return from Troy and the story of how a
sacred sacrficial king refused death at the end of his reign. The well-known
"magical" incidents of Odysseus' return happen by this theory to be part of
the sacrficial king component theorized by Graves, which for the sake of
distinction he calls the "Ulysses" story. ("Ulysses" apparently means
"wounded thigh".)
Graves refers to the "nine-fold refusal of death" as part of the "Ulysses"
story, although the list is not quite identical to the list given in the
forthcoming book. The continuous narrative in the Odyssey can be broken up
in several ways. And Graves seems to be assuming that the story has
material, historical, origins....although to be sure these appraoches are
not necessarily mutually exclusive.
One point that is often missed in discussing the Odyssey is that for the
Cyclopes and all that we only have the word of Odysseus! These stories of
magic and monsters are contained in the account of his travels that he tells
the Phaecians....they clearly don't believe him; and indeed Odysseus is the
King of Liars, and clearly presented as such; Athene herself praises him for
his ability to conceal the truth.
So maybe we are intended to be sceptical as well. And also, maybe we are
intended to take the stories of the "nine-fold refusal of death" separately
from the rest of the Odyssey; this would leave the Phaecians out of it
(rather than representative of the 'One' type).....I'll post Robert Graves'
relevant comments when I get around to it.
luv, j
Date:
Mar 26 2001 21:32:51 EST
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
[octave] Serotonin etc and type.
More stuff of interst from EM Archive (see previous post for URL):
____________________________________________________________
Biological Basis of Type
Tina Thomas & Eric Schulze
The Enneagram has proven to be a very precise and predictable grid for the
description of human personality. We believe that not only is the Enneagram
a powerful descriptive tool, but also that it belies a biological truth that
has yet to be discovered. In this article we will outline our theory on
the biological basis of personality based on the Enneagram. We believe that
this theory is an important step towards identifying the chemical and
genetic “elements” that form the basis of personality.
We propose that the Enneagram (that is, the 9 basic types with wings, the
Triads, the Hornevian groups, and the Harmonic groups) is explained by
genetically determined high, medium or low levels of three dominant amine
central nervous system neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters are chemicals
that modulate brain activity in predictable patterns. These three are
Dopamine, Serotonin, and Norepinepherine.
Dopamine can be considered a basic modulator of physical endurance or drive.
Serotonin can be considered a basic modulator of psychological well being.
Norepinepherine can be considered a basic modulator of focused thinking
and mental drive.
We hereby propose a theory of personality whereby high, medium, and low
activity of each of these three neurotransmitters systems are distributed in
an enneagrammitically logical way. We propose that the basic triad groups
(Head, Gut and Heart) correspond to the level of activity of the
Norepinepherine system. The thinking triad types (5, 6, and 7) appear to
have high levels of norepinephrine activity and are generally mentally
active. The instinctual triad types (8, 9, and 1) appear to have relatively
low norepinephrine activity, and the heart triad types (2, 3, and 4) appear
to have medium levels of activity of the norepinephrine system. We believe
that the activity of Dopamine corresponds to the Hornevian Triads
(Assertive, Passive, and Compliant). The assertive group (3, 7, & 8) has
high levels of dopamine activity and have a lot of energy and drive. The
passive group (4, 5, & 9) has low levels while the compliant group (1, 2 &
6) has medium levels. Finally, thanks to work of Riso and Hudson who
identified the Harmonics, a third way of categorizing the Enneagram, the
levels of Serotonin correspond to the Harmonic System (Positive Outlook,
Reactive, and Competency groups). The positive outlook group (7, 9, & 2) has
high levels of Serotonin and generally has an upbeat outlook on life, the
reactive group (4, 6, & 8) has the lowest levels, and the competency group
(1, 3, & 5) has intermediate levels.
Ordering each of the basic nine personality types in combinations of high,
medium, and low neurotransmitters yields the following results:
Type Serotonin
Norepinephrine
Dopamine
One
Medium Activity. Stable mood neutral sense of well-being.
Low activity. Low anxiety, deliberate thinking,
Medium confidence. Adequate drive, energy, and endurance.
Two
High activity. High sense of well-being. Content calm & happy.
Medium activity. Some anxiety, good arousal level, stimulated but not
restless.
Medium confidence. Adequate drive, energy, and endurance.
Three
Medium Activity. Stable mood neutral sense of well-being.
Medium activity. Some anxiety, good arousal level, stimulated but not
restless.
High confidence, energy, drive, and endurance.
Four
Low activity. Low sense of well-being, reactive, moody, aggressive.
Medium activity. Some anxiety, good arousal level, stimulated but not
restless.
Low confidence, drive, energy & endurance.
Five
Medium Activity. Stable mood neutral sense of well-being.
High activity. High anxiety, restless mind, high-strung, over-stimulated.
Low confidence, drive, energy & endurance.
Six
Low activity. Low sense of well-being, reactive, moody, aggressive.
High activity. High anxiety, restless mind, high-strung, over-stimulated.
Medium confidence. Adequate drive, energy, & endurance.
Seven
High activity. High sense of well-being. Content calm and happy.
High activity. High anxiety, restless mind, high-strung, over-stimulated.
High confidence energy, drive and endurance.
Eight
Low activity. Low sense of well-being, reactive, moody, aggressive.
Low activity. Low anxiety, deliberate thinking,
High confidence, energy drive, and endurance.
Nine
High activity. High sense of well-being. Content calm and happy.
Low activity. Low anxiety, deliberate thinking.
Low confidence, drive, energy, and endurance.
[it goes on, check out the article if inteested!]
Um, and the site was
http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/library/oghamdiv.htm
----------------------------------------------
What I've called the "celtic enneagram", more precisely "an alternative
glyph of the enneagram encountered in neo-druidic and witchcraft
ccircles".....continues to excite some interest.
I encountered it associated with a spellcraft (or "active meditation
technique" or something if you prefer) associated with the ogham tree
alphabet. This does not seem to have been published anywhere, and every now
and then I have a surf of the net looking for signs of this particular
tradition.
In doing so I turned up the following neo-druid site which may be of
interest.
-j
ate:
Feb 18 2001 05:54:12 EST
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
[octave] Lull...
Just recently was leafing through that book in the _Eastern Mysteries_, its
a pair with a book on the _WEstern Mysteries_....author a guy called Hulse.
Published by Llewellyn in 2000.
Anyway the Eastern one has a chapter on the enneagram, fairly uninformative
except for a comment that "Gurdjieff and Ouspensky" were studying Lull
together in St Petersburg c1916. Lull is an obvious source of the enneagram,
his Great Art involved a nine-pointed figure. The points were associated
with a whole pile of things including personal vices and virtues.
But I've never before come across the claim, made casually as fact, that
Lull studies were part of the curriculum so to speak at the time the
enneagram was first unveiled as part of the Fourth Way package.
I'll get around to writing to Hulse about it eventually...but does anyone
ahve more info on this?
-j
Date:
Oct 18 2000 01:05:38 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
[octave] Lifestage Enneagram
This refers back to earlier posts on this list, some of them roughly around
about message 150. Because its been a while I feel the need to briefly recap
some old stuff before making a tentative new point.
There are six permutations of the "three forces", "Active Passive and
Neutralizing" as they are sometimes called, or "1, 2 and 3" by the
convenient convention. It is clear from Bennet material (and implied in
Ouspensky material) that these six permutations can refer to the "three
shocks" of the enneagram (ie, DO, =>MI-FA, =>SOL-LA) to give enneagrams of
different types.
So, Bennett's "Kitchen Octave" is a 321 enneagram. The Kitchen itself is
force 3, the raw Food is 2 and the community of Diners is 1. Or the Ray of
Creation is a 123 enneagram. It may be that the Food Diagram eneagram is a
213.
Now, I've proposed that the "enneagram of personality" (the Palmer/Riso/etc
stuff) can be related to the process enneagram by considering the Lifestage
Enneagram. The Lifestage Enneagram I've suggested (working from a hint in
published Nicoll material) follows. The basic concept is that each lifestage
has "legitimate tasks", and the Personality types can be seen as fixations
on the legitimate tasks of each lifestage. The relation between enneagrams
(such as the lifestage enneagram) and static or reified enneagrams(such as
the enneagram of personality) has been little explored.
Anyway, the Lifestage Enneagram you may recall:
Do-Unborn (Relates to Type 9, fixated on pure being, tasklessness)
Re-Baby (Type 8, fixated on survival)
Mi-Toddler (Type 7, fixated on tasting the world)
=>Society....Type 6, fixated on reaction to social control
Fa-Child, (Type 5, fixated on learning, making sense of world)
Sol-Youth (Type 4, fixated on individuation)
=>Mating....Type 3, fixated on image building
La-Parent (Type 2, fixated on nurturing)
Ti-Elder (Type 1, fixated on judging)
So much for recapitulation.
What "type" of enneagram is the Lifestage Enneagram? I think its a 231,
based on the feeling that the =>Mi-Fa shock was Neutralizing and the
=>Sol-La Active.
Now, the Lifestage Enneagram begins with birth. Gurdjieff seemed to suggest
that what begins at birth is Essence insofar as that can be distinguished
from the Body. (Sometimes he treated Essence as including the Body when he
was dealing with both in contradistinction to Personality. The clearest
treatment of Essence and Body as distinct things I have found in the
_Views_)
So the Lifestage Enneagram begins as a Do at the =>MI-FA point of the Body
Enneagram. Presumably the Body Enneagram begind with the DO of conception.
(I would imagine that quickening is its RE and functionality of the foetal
lungs its MI, but that needn't be settled for my present point.)The Body
Enneagram reaches its second DO at the =>Sol-Fa point of the Lifestage
Enneagram, ie a new conception occurs (in our very idealized model of
course).
Now the possibility has already been discussed on this list that with
octaves interesecting in this way then the shock points can be treated as
holding their character for all the relevant octaves. So if the shocks at
=>Mi-Fa and and =>Sol-La of the Lifestage Enneagram are Neutralizing or 3
and Active and 1 respectively then those shock points in connected
enneagrams can be treated as the same.
At this stage I better do a diagram:
BODY LIFESTAGE("ESSENCE") PERSONALITY SHOCK
DO=> ACTIVE(1)
RE
MI
=> Do=> PASSIVE(2)
FA Re(Baby)
SOL Mi (Toddler)
=> =>Society =>do NEUTRAL(3)
LA Fa (Child) re
TI La (Adolescent) mi
DO=> =>Mating => ACTIVE(1)
[ETC]
This would suggest that the Body Enneagram was "123" enneagram which in
Collin's list of enneagram characters would make it an enneagram of
"Growth or Multiplication". This seems possible. The Personality Enneagram
would be associated with "Corruption" as "312" enneagram; Karl on this list
has associated the 312 with "lies". This seems to fit the picture of
personality given in the material.
(Mind you, I'm not trying to oversimplify the picture. One of the things
which happens at the transition from toddlerhood to childhood is the impact
of the wider society, but other things happen too. The difficulty with
framing useful octaves is with simplifying the picture enough to see basic
principles.)
Anyway, hoping this is useful for someone somewhere...even if only as a
Force 2 influence! I'd appreciate criticism and debate. Instruction, even.
Luv, Jeremy `
Date:
Jun 13 2000 06:21:34 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Re: [octave] [GoldenMean] Re: Light & Endocrine Glands
Dr Starman writes:
> There's also the effects discovered in the past 30 years of light >on
>the
>pineal (third eye), once thought a vestigal organ... produces more or >less
>serotonin...
Yeah, this is one of my reservations about the Body Types system, it seems
to be based on old science and to ignore the importance of the pineal gland
and of serotonin; which is a serious limitation.
Interestingly, Gurdjieff and Ouspensky's primary stuff does not seem to be
so limited. If we go back to the Food Diagram in ISOTM we will remember that
"impressions" are hydrogen 48; and so is ordinary thought. There is little
doubt in my mind that serotonin and other neurotransmitters (which I believe
were unknown to science back in 1917) are one of the things covered by
hydrogen 48. ("Hormones and vitamins" in general were referred to hydrogen
96).
But "impressions" is also hyrogen 48...from which we may easily infer that
light (and other electromagnetic radiation) is included under hydrogen 48.
It will be remembered that "Fire" is the generic term for hydrogen 96.
In any case the interaction of light and serotonin/melatonin and its
consequences is rather easily reconciled with the Food Diagram and is in my
view good supporting evidence of Gurdjieff's claims to have accessed a
source of wisdom.
_Jeremy
Archive for Enneagram & Octave Discussion List: Message #205
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Date:
Jun 14 2000 01:10:41 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
[octave] Llul, lifestages etc
Anthony writes:
>I am yet
>to see how the inner dynamics of the enneagram have
>been used in these personality types.
Well....the inner lines are regarded as "stress lines" and are in fact the
main point of learning one's type, which might otherwise be just narcissism.
>The fundamental idea behind this system is that each
>person has a core fixation around which the 'false
>personality' or 'ego' is constellated. These fixations
>or 'passions' (associated with the Christian seven
>deadly sins, with deceit and fear added to make nine)
>are the fundamental means by which we deaden and
>impair ourselves.
Which is to say that, in fourth way terms, it is an attempt to classify
"Chief Feature"; a connection which Palmer for one explicitly makes.
The source of the "two extra" deadly sins would have to be the medieval
mystic Ramon Llul (or Lully or Lull) who associated these 9 sins with the
nine-pointed figure which was the centre of his Great Art. You should be
able to find a translation of Llul in your local university library, and
there are also a few links on the web, including one from my page......Llul
is one of the *obvious* sources of the enneagram, his Great Art was very
well known.
The personality enneagram has another obvious source in the enneagram of
lifestages; there is a little about this on my page but a few interesting
things can be found by playing around with the lifestage enneagram (which I
did not invent, applying the ennneagram to lifestages goes back to the days
of O at least)....the commonplace observation that most people keep a
"typical age" throughout their lives leads directly to the personality
enneagram.
>The enneagram of personality is not really part of
>Gurdjieff's teaching, mainly because it confuses two
>similar but distinct ideas in Gurdjieff's thought:
>essence and personality.
I don't think anyone said it was...although it has roots in his teaching,
much like the essnece types stuff. Both enneagram typologies
seem to me to tend to confuse essence and personality...maybe because some
essences are more likely to wear some personalities, so there is not
altogether free variation.
Disentangling essence and personality types will in my view reqire going
back to the enneagram of lifestages. If we put human growth on an enneagram,
the basic *Body* enneagram presumably begins at conception, DO. We know that
the body continues to grow past puberty...at first pass I'd reckon the most
likely place for the =>MI-FA shock to be birth. This is a Do...the Do of
what? Apart from the "lifestage octave"? Well according to G birth is when
astrological influences kick in, and they act on essence....insofar as
essence can be separated from body, we might say that physical birth is the
Do of essence. (The bodys' RE I'd guess to be quickening at around 16
weeks).
For the "lifestage" Do Re Mi, there do happen to be materials available;
weaning at Re, puberty between Fa and Sol, mating at =>Sol-La; and the rest
is pretty easily worked out. You'll notice that the body reaches its SI at
Sol...the body has reached the end of its cycle when it reproduces. So where
does the personality come in? G tells us that personality begins with a
child's first lies, its a product of social interaction, which is to say
that the do of personality is at =>Mi-Fa; where the child is socialized.
The mi-fa of persoanlity then is at the Sol-La of the lifestage enneagram,
and the SI of the body; the mating point. Or, as was remarked to me only
recently "Isn't it odd how people who don't marry somehow don't seem to grow
up." Or, one function of celibacy is to control the personality...
Anyway, I'm cross-posting this to octave again, for obvious reasons to be
sure; but no more, I'll avoid cross-posting in future.
-Jeremy
Date:
Sep 10 2000 00:11:27 EDT
From:
Outrequin@aol.com
Subject:
[octave] Gossip
Dear Jeremy
Lurking about at deja.com I saw your efforts at discussion and was
impressed by the, um, faithful countenance of those efforts. After
checking out alt.consciousness.4th-way list in morbid fascination
for the past year (and it's assuredly 2% diamonds) I'm afraid it is
verifiably alt.consciousness.lunatics&tramps. (Which I suppose says
something about the fact I check it out anyway...looking for diamonds,
mind you!)
But this 4th way list phenomena is something to behold. Either
flame wars or vegetative co-existance. Will Bill Gates be food for
the moon? ;-)
Lisa
ate:
Jun 13 2000 04:58:25 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
[octave] Descending octaves
Some recent discussion on Golden Mean has reminded me that I still have no
real grasp of descending octaves.
In "Beelzebub" the the creative "Ray of Creation" octave is spoken of as if
it proceeded do-re-mi from the absolute like an "ascending" octave; and I
notice in the collection of Bennett material published as _Enneagram
Studies_ the refraction of light is also treated like this. Yet both these
octaves are surely involutionary, the Ray of Creation goes do-si-la in
Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous ("ISOTM")....and it seems clear that
the refraction octave, or "Rainbow Octave" is also a descendinding octave;
apparently of the same type as the Ray of Creation , ie a '123' with
Positive Force at do and Negative at =>mi-fa.
The form in which the octave is presented in the 4th way ,with the "false
shock" at sol-la, suggests that the octave can be "worked
from either end" so to speak, being symmetrical.
I still think that looking at the Medieval Modes, one of which resembles a
4th way octave, is likely to through light on this...I'll eventually get
round to posting on this if no-one else does.
Just BTW, on the question of the enneagram and astrology, the modern
astrological theory of harmonics seems like an obvious place for interesting
stuff to appear...
Regards, jeremy
Date:
May 31 2000 18:12:28 EDT
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
[octave] Second Shock Re: Enneagram
I'm taking the liberty of ccing this to the octave list; apologies to those
who will thus get it twice. This is because it goes over my understanding of
some fundamental stuff relevant to the octave list...
andrew writes:
>Does he, or does he not, identify the nature of these additional >shocks?
In preparing to rise to this challenge I looked back at andrew's earlier
post:
>the space between sol and la supplies the shock between si
>and do of the "lower" octave.
and realised that I'd read it carelessly. If this is taken with pedantic
literalness (which may not be intended) it is not in fact the same as what
I've called the 'accepted explanation', although it is related to it.
Consider the Food Diagram, that and the Ray of Creation are the only octaves
discussed in any detail in ISOTM.
Remember, the Food Diagram deals with 3 octaves. The first octave deals with
the transmutation of literal Food, "first food". When it reaches the MI-FA
point the Do of the "Air" octave enters and serves as the necessary shock,
and when "Air" reaches its Mi-Fa point the do of impressions enters; and can
serve as the necessary shock to enable the Air octave to develop.
You will see, and this is of great importance, that if you superimpose the
octaves, the Mi-Fa point of Air and the do of impressions * occur at the
SOL-LA point of the "first food" octave*. Beelzebub talks about the
significance of the SOL-LA point explaining that the form the octave takes
depends on whether it is isolated from the outside world at the SOL-LA
point. So it is the do of air that can provide the shock at the SOL-LA
point.
When we get to the SI-DO point of the "first food" octave we find this lines
up with the Sol-La point of the Air octave and the mi-fa point of the
impressions octave. It would seem that that the impressions octave cannot go
forward without an extra shock, and neither can the Food Octave. It is
implied in the text that these are the same shock; the famous "Second Shock"
of human transformation. (The "first" being the impressions shock at Air
Mi-Fa, "self-remembering"; the earlier shock at MI-FA is mechanical)
The Air octave, interestingly, can go forward without the Second Shock, as
the text notes with disingenuous casualness, and produce "higher hydrogens".
As the Air octave is at Sol-La the absence of a shock does not prevent it
proceeding to La but *the nature of La will be different*. Thinking about
this is quite informative. In my view, understanding this sheds light on
what Gurdjieff meant by "opening the fourth room with a skeleton key"....and
also on what Ouspensky meant when he told the story about how the Sly Man
learnt the Fourth Way from the devil. And a few other things.
But anyway, getting back to your question....when one ties it to the
specific example of the Food Diagram (and tying it to specific examples is
in my view the way to proceed at this stage) then your question becomes
"what is the Second Shock?". On an intellectual level I think I know, more
or less, much good that does me. I believe that you can find the what of it
described in, for example, the Sermon on the Mount. (With the reservation
that Jesus seems to me to have worked directly on sexual energy SI 12, hence
the emphasis on chastity; Gurdjieff warns of the dangers of this) The how of
it is I guess what we are all still working on.
Taken literally, your explanation has things backwards, although I'm not
sure that you meant it that way; and in any case taking things backwards is
often fruitful......
But the big thing is to play with practical examples, if you check through
the archives of the octave list you will see some practical examples worked
out (a bit!), discussed and disputed.
Bennett used the example of a kitchen with raw food (Do) entering at MI-FA
and "the community" entering to feed at SOL-LA. From the point of view of
the food in this octave, the community enters at the Mi-Fa point of the
food's octave, the do here will be to do with the ingestion of the food...
luv, jeremy
ate:
Mar 06 2000 05:06:50 EST
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Re:Yoghurt (Legal Advice Octave
karl wrote:
>
>I would have assumed [yoghurt making was an example of a 312 octave in
>action] although your distillation octave has left me a little
>uncertain. I'd have to be more familiar with the process to be sure.
Thinking about this, assuming that yoghurt-making was 312, what would it be
if the purpose of the process was to extract lactic acid?
If fermentation continues undisturbed what we get in the end is not alchohol
but vinegar....Could it be that if the fermentation octave begins with the
"mash" at Do, a solution of sugary organic matter, then the ti would be at
the vinegar stage? Or does the fact that another organism is involved in
making vinegar indicate necessarily another octave?
It seems to come down to the relation of inner octaves to the
...um..."outer" octaves.
Incidentally, my reference to the Rainbow Octave ssomewhat misrepresented
Pledge...will get back to this and other matters.
-Jeremy