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Date:
Jan 04 2000 01:08:01 EST
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Nine Star Ki?
Just looking through "Beelzebub's Tales" (Gurdjieff's opus) lately; and I
notice that he attributes the origin of the expression of the "law of seven"
as a "law of nine"; (ie the inclusion of the two shocks in the octave to
make 7+2=9) to Chinese "true scientists" (First chapter in book 3). In
Beelzebub Gurdjieff nowhere speaks of the enneagram directly, this reference
to the law of seven conceptualized as a "law of nine" is thus especially
relevant.
While little in Beelzebub may be literal, I think that even less is
meaningless. Was Gurdjieff suggesting a Chinese provenance for the
enneagram?
Date:
Jan 05 2000 23:06:15 EST
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Re: Nine Star Ki?
Anthony wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------------
The enneagram is a device to illustrate the law of seven AND the law
of three and how they work together.
Anthony
-------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, but where were they first combined in a single symbol?
Gurdjieff's "Beelzebub" went to the trouble of explaining where the two
shocks in the octave were first treated as points in themselves to make a
nine-fold pattern. He attributes this to two Chinese brothers, "true
scientists", as also describes their experimental apparatus in considerable
(and so far to me, puzzling) detail. Presumably he did not do this for
nothing; "Beelzebub's Tales" was meant to carry his teaching. This is the
closest he comes in "Beelzebub's Tales" to a direct reference to the
enneagram (although the laws of seven and three are of course referred to
elswhere in the book). I'm talking about the first chapter of book three
here.
So...what is the significance of the clear implication that the enneagram
has a Chinese origin? Maybe he simply had in mind the Tradition of the
Prophet "Seek wisdom, even as far as China". Or maybe
more is meant. In this connection it is worth remembering the importance
Gurdjieff gave to alchemy; and the existence of a very great alchemical
tradition in China, far more openly concerned with "inner alchemy" than
Western stuff. And in fact China is not so very far from Gurdjieff's known
and reputed stamping grounds.
Sime time ago rosewood offered to post some stuff about the Chinese "Nine
Star Ki", my feeling is that this would be informative. There are some
aspects of Taoist thought which have strong parallels with Gurdjieff's
stuff, notably the place of sexual energies in making the soul and other
matters surrounding this.
-J
Date:
Jan 05 2000 23:57:59 EST
From:
Anthony Craig
Subject:
Re: Nine Star Ki?
Original message from: "jeremy dixon"
So...what is the significance of the clear implication that the
enneagram
has a Chinese origin?
Well this is certainly an interesting angle and if you follow it up I
would like to see what you find. However there seems to be every
indication that the enneagram was first used by the Sarmoung
brotherhood, which J G Bennett was convinced actually existed around.
(See "Gurdjieff: Making a New World")
I think there are also very few "clear indiciations" about anything in
"Beelzebub's Tales;" Gurdjieff made a point of burying not only the
bone deeper, but the dog itself. I have found reading Bennett's "Talks
on Beelzebub's Tales" useful in this respect.
Kind regards,
Anthony
Date:
Jan 06 2000 00:55:16 EST
From:
Anthony Craig
Subject:
Re: Correspondences
Original message from: "jeremy dixon"
I think you'll find that all the glands synthesize their own hormones;
even
the thymus which last I heard produced "thymosin" (or the like) among
its
other talents.
Almost true; the exception is the posterior pituitary (which shares
nothing of its nature with the anterior except position); it receives
it's hormones from the hypothalamus, which may account for the Jovial
being a passive type.
I would have thought that the pituatory's production of the "nursing"
hormone prolactin was worth having a look at.
This comes from the posterior lobe and may also be why the Jovial is a
"maternal" type, even the males.
Anthony
Date:
Jan 06 2000 01:55:31 EST
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Re: Correspondences
Anthony wrote:
>Almost true; the exception is the posterior pituitary (which shares
>nothing of its nature with the anterior except position); it receives
>it's hormones from the hypothalamus, which may account for the Jovial
>being a passive type.
I'll hit the old physiology texts a bit before getting into this one much
deeper! Meanwhile...the same could be said of the adrenal cortex and medulla
couldn't it? That they don't have much in common besides position I mean.
Maybe it'd make sense to look at the hormones themselves more than the
glands, especially as different glands can synthesize the same hormone and
the same gland can synthesize a variety of hormones (and indeed the same
hormone can have a variety of functions, eg serotonin, norephedrine)?
Or alterntively/as well take the physical site seriously and look not just
at the gland but also at the local nerve plexus ("the brain nodes of the
spine" as whatshisname called them) and other factors. Look at the "chakra"
in other words. I can't help but think that this would tend to de-emphasise
the distinction between the anteriors and posteriors etc (the thyroids and
the parathyroids for example).
Luv, J
NB This post was sent to "octave" apparently in error for "bodytypes" where
the post it was relying to was. So, I've cross-posted it.
-j
Date:
Jan 06 2000 21:44:53 EST
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Re: Correspondence with Esquire
At home somewhere I've got an old "Esquire" article from the 40s or 50s
based on the same (questionable) psycho-physiology as the Collin system of
body types. Glandular psychology used to be fashionable between the wars.
Anyway "Esquire" discusses the glandular types of women, describing the
physical mental and erotic characteristics of the thymic type, the adrenal
type, the post and anterior pituitary type and so forth. Its a jokey
article, obviously, but no more a caricature than the use bodytyping makes
of the same material.
Interestingly, it makes no mention of a pineal type. In those years little
was known of the pineal gland and the hormones associated with it, notably
serotonin. Mainstream scientific research has since clarified the crucial
part of serotonin in brain function. Numbers of modern psychiatric drugs
operate by screwing around with serotonin in the brain. There is little
doubt in my mind that serotonin is closely associated with the "48"
vibration Gurdjieff is reported as being the level of the material of human
thought and the food of impressions; I don't have time to go right into this
at the moment.
My present point is simply that it would be a pity to base too much on
outdated scientific knowledge. (Gurdjieff's stuff often seems to anticipate
later discoveries.) I'd be interested to hear what Anthony or others had to
say about the pineal gland.
-J
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Date:
Jan 07 2000 20:36:41 EST
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Re: Nine Star Ki, Fibonacci
Anthony wrote:
"So...what is the significance of the clear implication that the
enneagram
has a Chinese origin?
Well this is certainly an interesting angle and if you follow it up I
would like to see what you find. However there seems to be every
indication that the enneagram was first used by the Sarmoung
brotherhood, which J G Bennett was convinced actually existed around.
(See "Gurdjieff: Making a New World")"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
One significance might be that it worth looking at Taoist stuff for light on
the enneagram. The Book of Changes even. There's a lot of number theory
there.
I doubt that the "Sarmoun Brotherhood" is literal. "Sarmoun" means "Bee"
doesn't it? Isn't saying that one got one's knowledge from the "Sarmoun
Brotherhood" in fact saying that one got it the way a bee gets honey?. One
searches, one gathers, and one transmutates in ones own body......
Speaking of number theory, I've been doing some interesting stuff with the
Fibonacci Progression. This pattern is ubiquitous in the natural world; and
seems to be just such a "global" pattern as the enneagram is claimed to be.
So the enneagram if the claims about it are valid must relate to the
Fibinacci Progression (which generates the Golden Ratio, just as an
indication of its importance). I've discovered some very interesting stuff
relating the Fibonacci Progression to the enneagram, coming soon.
-J Archive for Enneagram & Octave Discussion List: Message #136
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Date:
Jan 30 2000 13:04:18 EST
From:
"rosewood"
Subject:
.: Nine Star Ki, Enneagram- Reduction
Hi, I'm the culprit who mentioned Ninestar Ki-an old system of study of
nine, a physical (psycological, mental?) progression of forces from one to
nine or nine to one depending on the "season" in time. It is the magic
square with the number 5 in the center and the other eight no.s arrayed
around it ala a tick tac toe board such that addition of any three numbers
accross, or vertically or diagonally add up to 15. There are also 9
personality types associated with each number similar to, but different
from, the enneagram system of personalities. As of yet I have found little
in common with the Enneagam system which has no center number. We do not
know the origin of any of these systems but perhaps it doesn't matter. Human
Beings have been on this planet a long time and maybe they were more
developed than we are led to believe. Nine Star Ki, like the Enneagram, can
be applied to a myriad of ideas. Timewise, each year progresses in
descending order through the nine star numbers(until year 2030 when the
progression will reverse). The I Ching may be based on this system(or
vice-versa).The Fibonacci Progression comes into play when translating the
correct ninestar year from our 10 based calendar. The Fibonacci Progession
is very old and simply may be referred to as "reduction" as it is a system
of translating the decimal(ten) based system into nine. Our decimal system
can just keep rolling up to infinity. In the nine based system there are
only nine single digit numbers, so our infintely expanding calendar must be
reduced to a single digit (1-9). The enneagram system "sort-of" alludes to
this by calling the whole circle ten(or zero). Until I understand more, in
my opinion, the nine-star system attemptes to explain the universe(s) flow
of energy(laws) from the "ground up" so to speak, while the Enneagram
attempts to explain the same from the "top down" so to speak. It "inner
calms" me for the moment to see one as the inside of a helping hand, the
other as the back of the same hand. Similar purpose, but not exactly the
same. Perhaps each teaching will attract different essences or personalities
to itself. Do you picture yourself on the Earth looking up to the heavens,
or rather in the heavens looking down upon the Earth?
In any case, if we are hungry, we eat.
-Bruce
>For an extensive page on the Fibonacci Progression (and the Golden Ratio),
>see:
>
>http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fib.html
>
>This page is not "esoteric" but is written apparently for children so is
>just about simple enough for me to mostly follow. Lots of animations and
>stuff, both the striking mathematical properties of the Fibonacci
>Progression, or some of them, and its widespread appearance in the natural
>world.
>
>Finding the links between the enneagram and Fibonacci will tell us a lot.
>(Extensive links _must_ exist if the claims of Gurdjieff regarding the
>enneagram are even halfway true).
>
>Anyway, I'd be glad to hear how other people go with this. As I noted in
the
>preivious post if one reduces the Fibonacci progression (as in 13 "reduces"
>to 1+3=4) then one gets a repeating sequence of 24 characters, (falling
into
>two obvious halves of 12 characters each).
>If one draws this repeating sequence on the Compass (or "Celtic") Glyph of
>the enneagram then one finds a certain figure that I will leave people to
>discover for themselves.
>
>I expect further work to be fruitful, but meanwhile this is the only clear
>connection between the Fibonacci numbers and the enneagram that I know of.
>This has confirmed the importance of the Compass Glyph in my eyes, and have
>for the first time realized a major significance of the sequence of the
>Inner Hexagon around the rim of the Compass Glyph,ie :
>1,2,4,8,7,5,1,2....
>Of course, the sequence is the reduced form of the powers of 2,the
ascending
>octaves, ie:
>1,2,4,8,16 (1+6=7),32 [3+2=5],64[6+4=10,1+0=1],128,256,512 etc.
>
>People may recall that the Compass Glyph looks like so:
>
>
> 1
> 5 2
> 6 9 3
> 7 4
> 8
>
>
>The inner hexagram numbers are those not divisible by three.
>Gurdjieff regarded the decimal system as being non-arbitrary...indeed one
>might say in a sense that the decimal system "is" the enneagram. This side
>of Gurdjieff's teachings always fascinated me. He recommended that we look
>to popular sayings and idioms to find wisdom. Everytime we use our language
>we are like children playing with gold-bearing stones. In much the same
way,
>we "work" the enneagram everytime we use the decimal system.
>
>Fibonacci himself, who lived in the 13th century, was a pioneer in
>introducing the decimal "Hindu-Arabic" system to Europe.
>
>
>
>I'll get back to this, meanwhile some random thoughts....
>
>Looking at the numerals from the viewpoint of Theosophical Addition is
>interesting.If we "reduce" the times tables we get, obviously, nine
>sequences (remember that the sequence for 19 will be the same as for 1, 13
>for 4, etc). All the sequences generate all nine numbers except for the 3
>and 6 sequences (which only include 3, 6 and 9) and the 9 sequnce which
only
>inludes itself.
>
>So the Inner Hexagram numbers are distinguished form the Inner Triad in
this
>way, as well as being distinguished by the Inner Hexagagram being the
>repeating decimal for 1/7. As well the Inner Hexagram numbers are the
>reduced form of the _powers of two_, ie the ascending octave; and the
>Compass Glyph gives shape to this property.
>
>Finally one obtains one of the Inner Hexagram numbers (ie *not* 3 6 or 9)
>everytime you reduce a Prime Number. Is that interesting? I dunno, it
>interested me.
>
>
>Luv, Jeremy
ow Extended Headers
Date:
Jan 30 2000 19:38:54 EST
From:
"jeremy dixon"
Subject:
Re: .: Nine Star Ki, Enneagram- Reduction
rosewood wrote:
"There are also 9 personality types associated with each number similar to,
but different from, the enneagram system of personalities."
What, briefly, are these types of the Nine Star Ki?
"As of yet I have found little in common with the Enneagam system which has
no center number."
Well, I think (even leaving aside my interest in the Compass Glyph!) that
you can treat 9 as something like the "central" number in the enneagram. It
is the "do" remember....and for those who dig quoting scripture I believe G
was quoted by Ouspensky as saying that the 9 or zero point in a sense
represented the whole circle. The numbers of the enneagram pair off as two
rows of numbers, each pair adding to nine, excpet for nine itself...and
other stuff like that...(If one doesn't leave aside the Compass Glyph then a
whole lot more can be said, but obviously there is no point pursuing that
right now!)
"The Fibonacci Progression comes into play when translating the
correct ninestar year from our 10 based calendar. The Fibonacci Progession
is very old and simply may be referred to as "reduction" as it is a system
of translating the decimal(ten) based system into nine."
Just a point of semantics, the Fibonacci Progression does not in itself have
anything to do with reduction. The FB is the series of numbers:
1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144.......
which has some properties very interesting to mathematicians, an interest
apparently shared by God as She used the FB in making the world.
If one reduces the FB then one gets the repeating series of digits I called
the Fibonacci Pattern.
In a sense the decimal system is based on nine! Zero is merely a
placeholder, not a number.
I'll get back to this....but am aching to hear more about the Nine Star Ki!
-Jeremy
Our decimal system
can just keep rolling up to infinity. In the nine based system there are
only nine single digit numbers, so our infintely expanding calendar must be
reduced to a single digit (1-9). The enneagram system "sort-of" alludes to
this by calling the whole circle ten(or zero). Until I understand more, in
my opinion, the nine-star system attemptes to explain the universe(s) flow
of energy(laws) from the "ground up" so to speak, while the Enneagram
attempts to explain the same from the "top down" so to speak. It "inner
calms" me for the moment to see one as the inside of a helping hand, the
other as the back of the same hand. Similar purpose, but not exactly the
same. Perhaps each teaching will attract different essences or personalities
to itself. Do you picture yourself on the Earth looking up to the heavens,
or rather in the heavens looking down upon the Earth?
In any case, if we are hungry, we eat.
-Bruce
Date:
Jan 31 2000 17:06:21 EST
From:
Karl Starkweather
Subject:
Numerological Speculation
jeremy dixon wrote:
>
> Finding the links between the enneagram and Fibonacci will tell us a lot.
> (Extensive links _must_ exist if the claims of Gurdjieff regarding the
> enneagram are even halfway true).
I think we need to take a step back from this for a moment.
The Fibonacci Progression, and the Golden Section to which it converges,
describe one thing and one thing only as far as I am able to determine...the
quantitative result of an octave of (living) growth. Thus it can be found in
everything from flowers to spiral nebulae, and is largely responsible for our
subjective aesthetic response to natural beauty.
As such, this has important implications for art, science, and even
theology, but please notice that the Golden Section merely describes the
external form of the octave. In short, there is NOTHING ESOTERIC about the it.
It reveals nothing about the inner workings of the octave except to serve as
evidence of the type of triad on which the process was based (growth being one
of the six basic triads).
It is interesting to note that when Kepler was establishing relations
between the musical scale and the orbits of the planets (demonstrating by
implication that the solar system was the result of a living, creative process),
he went out of his way to stress that none of the intervals could be arrived at
through a division by seven, since such a division could not be constructed
geometrically and the heptagon appears in none of the platonic solids on which
his musical ratios were based (whereas the Golden Section appears in the
pentagon, which forms the dodecahedron, from which all five of the platonic
solids can be derived). Yet it is this very incommensurable division by seven
upon which the Enneagram is based. This simple reality should tell us something
about what the Enneagram addresses - it is hidden, and therefore esoteric.
Mixing the esoteric and exoteric is, as I see it, a way of mixing scales.
This cannot lead to understanding and I would urge people to consider carefully
where our intellectual resources are applied, for the Formatory function loves
games and puzzles, and will play with them until the end of time if we give it
free reign without a little rigorous analysis once in a while.
(Sorry to make my first post to this list so negative. I think some of what
has been presented here in the past has merit and plan to comment on it)