Ideas

Question:-

What makes you think it is impossible to create a computer or robot in the future that can do all that you say the human brain can do. I mean, a computer or robot could be made so complex that it can reprogram itself and being connected with the outer world with all kinds of sensors. It would theoretically be able to be a programmer of its own programs and expand the hardware, influenced by experiences.

Comment:-

You are imagining things that do not yet exist. Things may or may not be possible. What makes you think that I think it is impossible? Allah can do anything and He can do so through human beings who have been given some of His powers.

But I would say that if a human creation can do all that the human brain can do or more, then it is not a computer and not a robot, but a being. And human beings have always been able to produce thinking, feeling, and acting creatures through normal reproduction.

It is necessary to distinguish between the real, the experience of it and the ideas or thoughts which may or may not be verbal. They are not the same thing. The real R can become experiences E and these can become ideas I. The reverse is also possible - ideas can become experiences and these can become real as in inventions.

R >< E >< I

Question:-

Do other life forms have consciousness? If yes, then what is the difference between an insect-like-robot and a real (organic) insect or more primitive life form? How do you measure consciousness in other beings?

Comment:-

As I see it, all things possess consciousness to various degrees. It is a characteristic of Spirit. As I said there is a range of substances with varying properties that are combinations of the spiritual, mental and physical aspects.

We can illustrate this by a line A .........B....... C

Then the degree of spirituality or consciousness is maximum towards A and diminishes steadily towards C while inertia increases. The degree of inertia or materiality is maximum towards C and diminishes towards A. In between we have mind or life or energy. To put it another way:-

If you denote these aspects by the letters S, M and P, then each substance is a combination of these, but the relationship changes. This relationship can be denoted by position:- the left side is positive, active or dominating; the right side is negative or passive; and middle is mediating, reconciling, or catalysing. So we have:-

X 1 > SMP > SPM > MSP > MPS > PSM > PMS > X3

Here X stands for a blend of all three. X1 is the source. The six stages in the middle can in combination be regarded as X2 and the end result is another unity denoted by X3.

The series can be called an Octave. It is an evolutionary series from X3 to X1 and an involutionary series from X to X3. Note that the last triad is the reverse of the first triad. And that the 6 triads can be seen as 3 pairs according to whether S, M or P has the dominant position.

For those who are interested:- the Interpretation and application of this scheme can be found in "The Alternative Way" in a chapter entitled Transcendental Logic.

Question:-

You wrote:- "A distinction should be made between the Origin, the Principles, the Potentialities and the Actualities. A further three distinctions is between the experiences we have, the awareness of them and the descriptions."

How would you explain these distinctions in a diagram form (e.g. circles)?

Comment:-

You may have noted that I made 7 distinctions.

This corresponds to the 7 heavens (corresponds to not identical with). They can be regarded as levels or categories of thought. Thoughts often require diagrams and models to aid understanding, but are not taken as literally true.

Allah, the Originator, is usually regarded as above this scheme. When He is included then we have an Octave as explained before.

So if you draw a figure of 7 concentric circles, one inside another, the further inwards you go the denser the material. But as it is made of the same substance as the previous circle but organised or restricted by laws, then the material of the outer circles also penetrates into the inner ones. This is like air surrounding as well as being dissolved in water, and water surrounding and also inside a solid, e.g. the earth or a sponge. Think of there being 7 states or levels. The result is that at each succeeding level we also have increasing number of levels. In the 7th innermost circle, for instance, we have all 7 levels. Man living at this level has access to all these levels.

The Throne of Allah at the 8th level is represented as the space outside this diagram, but also penetrating through it. But to reach that level is to be totally annihilated - i.e. to have no ego or separate self. "Only the countenance of Allah remains" See Quran 55:27, 28:88 and also 2:112, 6:52, 13:22 and 18:29.

Question:-

We discussed different arguments for the existence of God or Allah. Some people pointed out that Allah is prior to existence and that rational arguments are, therefore, not satisfying since they are mostly a posteriori, they assume existence before Allah.

In the past, the issue was settled by Al-Ghazali who concluded that rational arguments can not prove the existence of God. What do we make now from all those modern Muslim apologists like Harun Yahya who challenges evolution theory and defends the Intelligent Design theory, and Imran Aijaz who defended the Kalam cosmological argument etc. It seems they have embraced rational apologetics faced by the challenges of modern thought.

Comment:-

The Quran uses reason, demonstration, examples, appeal to feelings and to insight and consciousness, shocks, threats, instructions, symbolism that appeals to sub-conscious and unconscious features and so on.

All these, including logic, are different modes of communication.

The purpose of communication is to transfer an experience or insight about the world "W" from one person "P1" to another "P2". This is done through a medium which is language, but could be some other form, e.g. a behaviour pattern or diagram. This communication can be done through another person "P3" who simply receives and transmits the medium without comprehension. Indeed "P1" and "P2" have limited experiences "E1" and "E2" of "W", and may not understand all or any of the implications either. Many scientists do not understand Einstein's Relativity Theories, but nevertheless use his mathematics which they have learnt to manipulate. Similarly, some people learn to manipulate logical procedures but though it may or may not go further than a superficial part of their intellect. It is not an experience and does not produce understanding or insight - i.e. it does not affect the heart and does not become part of them. But in so far as it does give them some understanding it has done its job.

Truth, however, requires that things fit into a unified system in a self-consistent manner. That is, each element makes multiple connections with other elements and the data of outer experiences also connect harmoniously with inner experiences (i.e. the truth or order of which a person is made.)

I know that verbal logical arguments convince no one. It is always possible to oppose one logical argument with another. Logical arguments are therefore endless and have to be finally settled by votes or research, observation and experiment, expansion of mental capabilities through education, training, or through mental conditioning.

It all depends on how a person defines his words and what premises he selects, his attitude, where he places his attention and emphasis, his assumptions and motives and his previous experiences and interactions with the environment and other people. All these are non-logical. Thinking is a matter for psychological studies and technologies, not speculation.

What convinces people is personal experience, understanding and insight. These transcend logical arguments.

As for the Theory of Evolution, that is an idea about the created world and depends on how the known facts are organised. It is, therefore, also open to interpretation and organisation of facts and to argument. Theories must take into consideration all known facts about the subject the refer to, and they must change as more facts are gathered, or they must be able to accommodate newly discovered facts. Facts can be interpreted and organised in different ways for different purposes and within different frameworks of reference.

Knowledge progresses through the following steps:-

(1) A number of facts are experienced or deliberately gathered about a subject according to interest. This is a matter of observation and experience.

(2) Theories are built through insight or inspiration;

(3) Conclusions are then drawn from these by the application of logical procedures.

(4) These are tested by observation or experiment.

Note that only one of these steps uses logic.

We have three co-operative ways of obtaining knowledge - through, insight, reason and experience. This confirms the Quran, which speaks of (a) Ilm-ul-Yaqin (Quran 102:5) (b) Ain-ul-Yaqin (Quran 102:7) and Haqq-ul-Yaqin (Quran 69:51) This corresponds loosely to reason, experience and consciousness. Note also that Yaqin refers to certainty. This is distinguished from possibility and speculation giving us three conditions. Human beings have a limited consciousness and that is adulterated with fantasies. This is why they cannot be sure whether the theory they have constructed is the result of true insight or fantasy. (These can be attributed to Allah or Satan). This is why they need to test it.

If experiment and observation confirm the conclusions then the Theory from which they are derived is regarded as being probably, but not certainly, correct. The probability of correctness rises with the number of confirmations. But one contradiction falsifies it and the theory has to be discarded or amended. However, this is not always necessary or done. One can build another theory to explain and accommodate the exception. Thus a number of theories can be built each covering a selected number of facts and another theory that will unite all these theories.

The same facts can be covered by several different theories and a theory may also cover things that are not facts or ignore some facts. The circle representing known facts, "F", is not identical with, and can overlap the area representing theories "T". In so far as facts depend on human experiences and their interpretations which might be illusions, the circle representing all real things "R" can also overlap "F" and "T".

The concept of God or Allah can be regarded as just such a theory but it is one that, being all comprehensive, cannot be falsified. Though a particular concept can be wrong, it can be modified as knowledge advances. The concept is open-ended so that we can draw a line representing the advance of knowledge from the minimum C towards the absolute A, through stages B.

...A..............<B............C...

Then A is always beyond B. B...C is the known, A...B is the unknown, and the advance of B implies an extraction of knowledge from the unknown. As Allah is the All-powerful, All-Knowing and All-Surrounding even by definition as described in the Quran, then the whole scheme from A to C is within Allah and we obtain advances of knowledge from Allah - i.e. B moves towards A.

The history of science and other systems of thought shows that theories have been accepted or discarded for non-rational reasons, because of fashions in thought, cultural, political or economic considerations, prevalent assumptions, and the abilities of people to comprehend or apply them for their own purposes. From all the ideas of people such as Newton only some were selected and others discarded. The concept of God has also changed over the millennia and has reached perfection in Islam.

Question:-

You appear to be putting forward a Trinitarian view like that of Christians. How do you justify this?

Comment:-

The Christian Trinitarian Doctrine makes God into a Trinity of three persons. In Islam Allah is One and indivisible and refers only to what Jesus calls the Father. The trinity I am speaking of refers to three aspects of the Created World. And it refers to how things can be thought about rather than how they are. It is the use of a method to aid understanding, an explanatory device.

Even in Islam a distinction is made in thought between the Essence of Allah (referred to as His Countenance), His Spirit and His Command. And He also has many Attributes, which when taken separately accounts for polytheism. Polytheism is therefore the result of a restricted partial view which Islam absorbs by expanding the mind into a comprehensive view.

The Christian Trinity could refer, not to God, but to religion which is presented to us as having three co-operative origins namely God, the Messenger who carries His word and the Spirit that informs us and gives us understanding and faith.

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