Discussions
Critic:-
Regarding discussions about "Trinity", between Christian and Muslim, many Muslims abhor the concept of 'comparative religion', as do many devout Christians. Both groups dislike having their 'faith', 'revelation' and 'doctrines' challenged by the other, and yet the irreconcilable 'Trinity' subject is often being debated in Islamic circles, for whatever reason. Is this kind of futile 'apologetic' debate leading us anywhere? Will it change the attitude of Muslims or Christians? This I sincerely doubt!
Perhaps, what is worse, as in this particular instance, both sides are ignoring the undeniable historical facts surrounding the issue, as is illustrated below.
What is fascinating is that in the 4th Century (381 CE) the Council of Constantinople's definitive statement of belief (now referred to as the Nicaean Creed) did not contain the word filioque, 'and the Son', which in effect nullifies the whole concept of 'Trinity'. Why are we seriously discussing an 7th Century interpolated form of the original Creed? For more historical information see "Western Society and the Church in the Middle Ages" p64-65 by R. W. Southern.
Is there a Muslim lesson that can be learned from this 'interpolation', otherwise what is the point of discussion? Did not it, in fact, eventually lead to the East - West schism in Christendom?
Finally, why do Muslims want to perpetuate or meaningfully discuss an historical Church inaccuracy? This I cannot answer, can you? Does not the historical facts establish, beyond doubt, that the "Trinity" doctrine is a Church fallacy?
Comment:-
O.K. So you have added something to this discussion! And that while criticising the discussion as futile!
It is a question of whether you believe in the Unity of Allah or not; and whether you know and understand what the concept of "Trinity" really means or implies. It depends also on whether you wish to explain Islam to those who ask, criticise or attack Islam.
It is not Muslims who go to Christian sites to deny the Trinity as far as I know. It is Christians who come to Islamic site to propagate their doctrines or at least ask questions. Some obviously have doubts and have not understood what the Islamic position is and why. This thread was started by a person who asserted that the Quran teaches Trinity.
I do not think that either Christians or Muslims in general understand what is involved in the concept of "Trinity". Certainly you seem to have little idea.
What is wrong with discussions between faiths and the removal of mutual misunderstandings? I am sure many readers now, after this discussion, understand much better what the original concept was, what the Christian position is and what the Islamic one is.
How was it possible for Islam to spread if there had been no discussion? Does the Quran not insist on the Unity of Allah? And do not Christians still believe in Trinity and defend it without justification and understanding?
It is argumentation, disputation and debate that should be abhorred, not discussion. This is because discussion is enlightening and those who enter into it presumably wish to increase their knowledge. The other modes of exchange are confrontational which divide into opposing sides, each concerned with attacking the position of the other, defending their own position and scoring points. The purpose is to win and boost the ego and not to reach Truth.
True, Islam is not a missionary religion in the Christian sense, sending missionaries to convert or impose their religion on others by any means, including bribery, spin and falsehood, and whether or not the teaching is understood. But Muslims are obliged to set an example and give information to those who ask and are receptive. What the Quran tells us is this:-
"And argue not with the people of the Book, unless with better means; except with those who have done wrong amongst them and say: We believe in what is sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we Surrender (as Muslims)." 29:46
"Revile (or abuse) not those who call on other than Allah, for then they may abuse Allah openly in their ignorance. Thus We make seemly to every nation their deeds. But unto their Lord is their return, and He will inform them of the truth of what they used to do." 6:109
"Follow what is inspired in you from your Lord; there is no god but He, and shun the idolaters. But had Allah pleased, they would not have associated aught with Him. We have not made you a keeper over them, nor are you for them a warder (or responsible for them). " 6:107-108
Knowledgeable Christians and Muslims know that the concept of the Trinity was not taught by Jesus, but is a later invention. But that is not what the discussion is about. It is about what it implies and whether the concept is accurate and useful or not. The fact is that Christians believe in the Trinity today, and misunderstand Islam from that point of view, and think that Islam contains a contradiction by accepting Jesus while denying the Christian position. Did you not notice?
You ask: "Why do Muslims want to perpetuate or meaningfully discuss an historical Church inaccuracy? This I cannot answer, can you?"
The answer lies above and in your question:- the need to dispel an "inaccuracy" and "discuss meaningfully". But if you think the discussion is futile because you could not understand it, why are you commenting on it? Is it because you do not understand it and wish to be enlightened? Or is it criticism for the sake of criticism?
Obviously those who took part in the discussion did not think it was futile. If the fallacy of the Trinity is beyond doubt, then why are you telling us all this? Tell it to those who do not think it is a fallacy.
Another Muslim:-
The critic may have a point here, in a general, psychological sense. As the Quran says:-
"Surely the case of Jesus is like the case of Adam. HE created him out of dust, then he said to him, "Be', and he was. This is the truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of those who doubt. Now whoso disputes with thee concerning him, after what has come to thee of Knowledge, say to him `Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and our people and your people; then let us pray fervently and invoke the curse of ALLAH on those who lie." ...................etc.
Is it wildly incorrect to read the above as effectively placing a very 'strict' limit on holding discussions on this topic?
Comment:-
(1) Where in these verses does it say that we should not discuss and try to enlighten those who are in error? What do the following verses say:-
"And that there may spring from you a nation who invite to goodness, and bid right conduct, and forbid what is wrong; these are the successful." 3:104
"You were the best of nations brought forth unto man. You bid what is reasonable, and forbid what is inappropriate, believing in Allah. Had the people of the Book believed, it would have been better for them. There are believers among them, though most of them are sinners." 3:110
(2) Is it not the case that when the truth has come to us and someone comes to dispute with us, then the following verse applies?
"And whoever disputes with you after what has come to you of knowledge, say: Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves: then we will earnestly pray and invoke Allah's curse on those who lie." 3:61
(3) Am I not doing what the following verse says?:-
"Say: O people of the Book! Come to a word equal to us and you - that we worship none but ALLAH, and that we associate no partner with HIM, and that some of us take not others for Lords beside ALLAH. But if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we have submitted to God. " 3:64
One tends to get fed up and irritated with the category of Muslim, (which should be added, but not mentioned by the person who enlightened us by dividing Muslims into categories) namely those who criticise every one else without understanding but have nothing constructive to add.
True in the end, when efforts fail, it is for Allah to remove errors, and for us to adopt the following:-
"Say: O you faithless! I do not serve what you serve; Nor will you serve what I serve; Nor will I serve what you serve; Nor will you serve what I serve; To you your Way and to me my Way!" 109:1-6
"When you see those who plunge deeply into vain discussion of Our Signs (revelations), turn away from them until they discuss another topic. It may be that Satan makes you forget, but sit not, after you have remembered, with the congregation of the faithless (or unjust or wrong-doers). Those who fear (or avoid evil, the righteous) are not accountable for them at all, but remind them (or give them the Reminder, i.e. the teachings of the Quran) that per chance they may learn to fear (Allah). Leave alone those who have taken their religion for a play (pastime) and a sport (jest, amusement), whom the life of the world has deceived, and remind them hereby lest a soul be destroyed by what it has earned. It has, beside Allah, no patron or intercessor; and though it should offer every compensation it will not be accepted. Those are they who perish by their own deserts. For them is (the similitude of) a drink of boiling water, and grievous woe because they persisted in their disbelief." 6:68-70
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