How has it been like living in Goa since your retirement as chief of the Indian Armed forces four years ago?
It has been extremely fulfilling; extremely satisfying, for all that we have had from Goa for the last four or five years. It has been such a lot of joy, such a lot of satisfaction in interacting with the people here. What we find here is a totally unspoilt culture. When I say culture, I don't mean it is the narrow sense. The intrinsic decency in a human being manifests itself more often in Goa than anywhere else I can think of. There is a certain intrinsic pride, certain intrinsic delight I presume of being a Goan which projects itself. People who come from outside and who do not stay here for very long, go home with a nice feeling about the people and their hospitability. Invariably they would wish they could stay here a little longer and wish to come back. Given the realities of modern attitudes, modern compulsions, that burning desire to get ahead at any cost and all that, this is such a refreshing experience that I wish we could have come here earlier.
You are quite active on Goa's social front. What exactly is your objective?
When you look at the status and the stature you had in the Army, it is impossible to move forward from there because that was the culmination of everything. Materially, I became the chairman of the chiefs of staff of the three services and I couldn't have aspired for anything more. Spiritually, the very important thing that has happened to me is that my wife and I had a personal interview with His Holiness, the Pope. So, in all conscience, I couldn't aspire to anything more than that. So now when we came here we were clear that we were not going to graduate to something, that we were going to cut loose totally, start a new life and help in every way we could as a catalyst, as a moderator, possibly as a guide. We were also very clear that we were not going to push. We don't want anyone's approval. We don't require any publicity because we have had all that. So we were in a position here to get involved in things, but on our terms.
Could you elaborate on the type of role you are trying to play at the moment?
You see, we have to work at building a strong India. We have to make people realise that regional aspirations, regional priorities need not necessarily be at variance with the national objectives. It's a question of sitting and narrowing differences. We are still trying to come to terms with ourselves as a people. It's nice to say that India is one nation. There is unity, diversity and whatever. The fact remains that in 1947 we were a fragmented nation. You had a big part of India out of which Punjab was cut down the middle. West Bengal was cut down the middle. Punjab was cut down the middle and we had 568 states who, technically speaking, were independent states with an independent relationship with the king emperor. All of them were amalgamated. We had to put in them that feeling that they were all one people, with one feeling, with one ambition, with one objective. That doesn't happen overnight.
And I believe the high percentage of illiteracy is a major impediment towards this end.
Fifty-two per cent of our people are illiterate. It means I can't reach out to 52 per cent of my people because they don't speak any language I am familiar with. So I have to identify someone who speaks their language and whom they trust and whom I trust. I can only reach out to them through this person. You see, we should concentrate on our areas of agreements rather than disagreements which is what most of us are doing for short term gains.
You can't possibly be happy with the way our political system is working…
I don't think it needs to be explained what the current political situation is like. But the saving grace is that over a period, people are getting more and more assertive and conscious of their rights. Take this simple thing - the movement to change the Official Secrets Act. That was devised by the British in 1923 to help them rule in India. The rule itself has changed in Britain. Only in India we are carrying on with it because it suits everybody. That way you are not ruling, you are dominated, you are only controlling. The problem in India today is that we are not aware of our rights as much as we should have been. But as I said, some welcome change has come about in the people.
The degree of corruption is exceedingly high in our country, and the state of Goa, I thought, is no exception.
So far, unfortunately because of the socialistic system we follow, because of the plethora of rules that we follow, we are vulnerable to everybody. I remember a businessman telling me that he has got 14 sons-in-law. He said the factory inspector, the excise inspector and so on are all his sons-in-law and that he has to look after them. Now I don't need to tell you what is happening.
Can't you, in your capacity as the former chief of the Indian Army, do something about it, at least in Goa?
The state of Goa is 307 square kilometres in area which is big enough to be viable and small enough to be manageable. It can bee a model state in any way you choose. But the people of Goa must want it that way. Now if everyone leaves Goa and goes abroad, and that's what is happening, who is going to institute the change? You and I have to do it. We are having a series of seminars here at the Centre tackling Goa's problems. It is next to impossible to get anybody from the media here. For whatever reasons - I don't know what your priorities are - you are too busy getting photographs of somebody inaugurating Sulabh Sauchalayas somewhere or something you seem to think as more important. What can I do? Now this is the culture you (Media) have created. And you want me to accept this. I won't accept it. It is important to have a value system, a character that guides your life.
Now moving on to the main topic I came to hear you speak on, tell me, how have you reacted to the quintet of nuclear tests we carried out recently?
As a patriotic and caring Indian, I think what we have done is that we have redressed a certain image that we had projected of ourselves of being a soft state, that we couldn't take tough decisions and that we were incapable of putting our act together. Now we have done something right, but maybe as you say, at the wrong time. The point is now you have to go and locate the actual position that we are in today. I don't know what motivated the tests at this time. Probably if they were to tell us why these tests were necessary now, then we would have been able to understand this whole problem better. But what I am looking at is the reality of these tests. What we have done in fact is serve notice on the world that while we may not have got somewhere, we have kept that particular door open.
But was this show of strength really called for? Don't you think it is going to generate some tension in this subcontinent?
I am confident that what you have done is in my interest. I trust you. I don't know what has prompted these tests. You have demonstrated to the world that you have the capability to belong to this particular club. The important thing is that you have given to our people one more opportunity to put India together. Will you please subserve your interests? Will you please concentrate on what is in India's interest?
In view of the sanctions imposed by the USA, and the stopping of aid by countries like Japan, I think we will come under a severe economic pressure now.
We are going to be under a severe pressure from a lot of countries from around the world. We will have to generate reserve resources from within ourselves. It's going to take a lot of sacrifices. I am not being jingoistic. I am not trying to shout from the rooftops about my patriotism or so. I am totally confident from what I have seen all these years, of our ability to succeed. If we all work together, nobody in this world can stop this country.
Are the sanctions justifiable in the first place?
How is that France, Russia, U.K. have taken this stand? There is a certain hypocrisy involved in it. Apply one set of rules here and one set of rules there. As the speaker of the Senate said, why you are applying the sanctions to India while you have not applied them to China. Is it because you see India as soft with people not having the and the moral fibre or something? Surely we have projected a wrong image. We have to project that there is total unanimity, the whole of India is supportive of what we are doing.
The BJP led government is apparently bent on making a political capital out of these tests
I am not talking of the BJP nor I am talking of the Congress (I). I couldn't care less. These are passing phenomenons. I am talking of India. I am talking of what is in India's interest. I am talking for all of us and the role we have to play in developing our potential. Nobody has any doubts about India's potential. As I said we are our own worst enemies. When somebody is doing something, somebody else is bound to put a spanner. All you have done is use the system to benefit yourselves. I can think of only three or four people who are putting India first. You might not agree with me because they have been projected incorrectly. But these are the people I worked with and I know that they are really committed to India.
Having done the nuclear tests successfully, I think it would be in order that we now sign the CTBT and the NPT and defuse the tension that is building up in this region.
Why sign the CTBT and the NPT? It is discriminatory because in effect it is a form of nuclear apartheid. I know people who could say it was lovely to live in South Africa once you accepted their rules. I said you, you were living like a second class citizen, and if that is what you want, please go and make your money. Suck up to whoever you want. Who am I to say anything to you? What we have done is correct. We have said we will negotiate. We are prepared to get involved in the CTBT in those areas which are not discriminatory. It is going to affect you as a people, but hopefully because of this we will come of age, hopefully we will develop that character which we don't have now. Economically there will be a little stuttering. But there are enough people who agree with what we are doing.
As if to keep up with the Joneses, Pakistan, one understands, is itching to carry out its own nuclear tests.
I don't think so. What we are saying is that they are not capable of exploding that bomb without the help of those who helped them in developing it. I won't mention any names.
I thought there was no need for our Prime Minister to tom tom about the Tests. Such matters are usually kept secret.
My argument is, that is how you would perhaps do it. Someone else would do it another way. Again to repeat what I have said, I will say by doing these nuclear tests we have demonstrated our capability. The single incontrovertible fact is that all of us as Indians have to support what has happened. There is no debate on this.
Nani Palkhivalla, an eminent lawyer, in a TV programme allegedly prophesied India's fragmentation before the turn of the century. What are your comments on that?
You see, let me make one point clear. I have known Nani Palkhivala for so many years. He is a very dear friend of mine. What Nani Palkhivala said 20 years ago, I had a lot of regard for. The point is it is not fair to get him to comment on things like these without giving him all the inputs available so that he gets his mind clear.
But when one takes a look at what is happening in Kashmir, one does get worried that Palkhivalla's reported prediction might come right.
Why only Kashmir? It is happening in other parts too. The Ranabir Sena the other day massacred 23 people. Why don't you say it about Bihar? Don't be insensitive to the problems of your colleagues in the other states.
I thought our Defence Minister Fernandes's statement regarding the main threat to India from China was needless.
Well, I think he made a lot of other statements after that. Read that. You will find out what the things actually are.
Finally, what according to you does the future hold for India?
If you ask me what is the singlemost important thing we need to do, it is to get a caring middle class. Unless the middle class in India gets involved, I am sorry to say, I cannot see anything good happening to our country. The middle class has insulated itself. Possibly they are saying it, I can't change it, so why should I get involved. It is possible that it is due to this class's frustration. The singlemost important thing the nuclear tests have done is to bring the middle class in the forefront because it is this class that is affected the most. I am totally confident that nobody will be able to hold India back except Indians. I am also totally sure in mind that somehow we will develop the courage, the resilience and the commitment that we need to get through because our national interest has to come first
