Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 19:09:25 -0000 From: auvenj@mailcity.com Subject: [lpaz-discuss] Re: Results are in: ALP, Inc. Voter Registration Experiment To: lpaz-discuss@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: lpaz-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Bob & John,
I guess I need to go over the purpose of this little experiment again. The purpose wasn't to force the state to "do it right". It wasn't to correct any low-level clerks or to set us up for another court case. The experiment was designed to obtain some information.
I was booted off the ALP GovCom for serving as an officer of ALP, Inc. My contention at the time was that ALP, Inc. is not a political party and hence I had not violated the ALP bylaws. I pointed out the fact that ALP, Inc. is NOT a political party as political parties are defined under Title 16 of Arizona statutes. I pointed out that ALP, Inc. has NO registered voters, runs NO candidates, and has a platform that is merely a copy of ALP's. In short, ALP, Inc. has none of the attributes that one would normally associate via common sense with a political party, other than ALP, Inc.'s claim to be one. Given that ALP, Inc. also claims to BE ALP, I'd think that what they claim would carry very little weight with this group.
Still, the above facts were supposedly trumped by the fact that ALP, Inc. is registered with the Secretary of State as a political party, and is recognized by the state as such. "Sorry," it was lamented by the chair, "the bylaws are clear and I have no choice but to remove you from the GovCom."
So, the purpose of this experiment was simply to find out: Does the state IN FACT treat ALP, Inc. as a political party in regards to something that is easily testable (voter registration)? Remember, this very experiment was suggested by the people touting the idea that ALP, Inc. _is_ a political party.
The fact that the state did not treat ALP, Inc. as a political party is not a "mistake" or a "clerical error" until and unless someone from the state says, "oops, that isn't what we meant to do." _WE_ (meaning Sharon and I) were fully prepared to accept ANY three letters showing up in the party field on that voter registration card. If it had been anything other than LBT, Sharon would have simply filed another voter registration form to re-register as LBT. We obtained the information we sought...the state did not recognize ALP, Inc. as a party that could be registered for as distinct from ALP. Whether the state did that because some clerk couldn't spell or because Governor Hull herself ordered it is immaterial to the OUTCOME of the experiment -- though it is certainly material to the likelihood of that outcome changing.
If you are unhappy with the result of the experiment, you are free to try the same thing yourself and then complain to the state that it isn't the result you wanted. If you'll remember, I suggested that others try registering for ALP and ALP, Inc. with their respective filing numbers in order to provide both a redundant test and a forum for those who may wish to bitch about the results. Sharon and I have no desire to do so. If you're interested in getting a court to order the state of Arizona to recognize ALP, Inc. as a political party go right ahead. I can't fathom why on earth anyone would ever think that such a ruling would help ALP, in either a legal or a political sense.
Until that time, however, it is evident that "the bylaws are clear...I had no choice" is a crock. The idea that ALP, Inc. is a political party is at bestdisputable, if not outright absurd. Folks don't want me to serve as an officer in both organizations...fine. I have suggested a much more direct and common sense way for that situation to be prohibited. Consider for sake of argument if some people were to form, say, "Arizona Libertarians for an Open Party" and sue ALP to remove the pledge as a membership requirement. Would we want an officer serving on the both the GovCom and that organization? The current bylaws wouldn't prevent it. If a proposal to prevent such a situation has "no legs" then that's fine with me too...it was just offered as an option to those who might choose to ignore evidence rather than accept the possibility of someone being an officer in both ALP and ALP, Inc.
Do we want a party where the chair can simply declare reality ("ALP, Inc. IS a political party.") and the consequences follow ("you're off the GovCom") with no fact-finding? Just how objective are we going to be?
--Jason Auvenshine
--- In lpaz-iscuss@y..., "John Wilde" <rsrchsoc@i...> wrote: > Jason,
>
> You have jumped about to steps in logic to reach your
conclusions. Inc. is > a separate party. Just because the government clerks make a
clerical error, > does not mean that it is IMPOSSIBLE TO REGISTER AS AN INC. MEMBER.
As a general > rule, low level ministerial clerks will not change the way they do
things until > an upper level supervisor says so and the upper levels won't change
until a > court says they are doing it wrong. Welcome to the wonderful world
of > bureaucratic mumbo jumbo. You have only just begun in your journey.
>
> So, I agree with Bob. There are two avenues to fix the
problem. First, the > leadership in the party needs to complain to the Secretary of State
to properly > reflect your membership. Second, Jason, since the error (and it is
an error) > was committed against you, you must also complain to the Secretary
of State and > the County elections people. If they won't fix the problem, then
you must file > a special action in superior court to correct the voter
registration. >
> g'day
> John Wilde
>
> Robert Anderson wrote:
>
> > Personally Jason
> > It sounds to me like Sharon and /or us need to call the SoS
office and > > ask them to remedy the mistake. Because as long as that file
number is there > > it's another political party and the SoS is in error. Also I
don't think > > your resolution will have legs, but your free to bring it up.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jason Auvenshine <auvenj@m...>
> To: <auvenj@l...> > > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:00 PM
> > Subject: [lpaz-discuss] Results are in: ALP, Inc. Voter
Registration > > Experiment
> >
> > > Sharon received her new voter registration card from the Pima
County > > Recorder on Saturday.
> > >
> >
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