Aljazeera.Net, Monday 21 August 2006, 17:25
'We should not fear being called radical'
By Farish A. Noor
Cleric Abu Bakar Bashir, founder and head of the Pesantren al-Mukmin of Ngruki,
based in the Indonesian city of Surakarta, is widely known in Southeast Asia and
around the world.
Following the bombings on the island of Bali in 2002, he was accused of being
involved in the attack and subsequently jailed. After his early release last month, he
has once again appeared on the Indonesian political scene.
Despite the accusations that were leveled against him, many Indonesians have
expressed support for the man and skepticism over the trial, arguing that the
Indonesian government was forced to act against Bashir due to pressure from
Western governments including the United States and Australia.
Malaysian academic and commentator Farish A. Noor recently visited the Pesantren
al-Mukmin in Solo and met with Bashir himself. The following is a transcript of his
conversation (conducted in Bahasa Indonesia) with Bashir:
FN: We have just returned from a demonstration where you and the students of Ngruki
were present along with members of the Majlis Mujahidin Indonesia (MMI), Front
Pembela Islam (FPI), Front Pemuda Islam Solo (FPIS), Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia (HTI),
Partai Keadilan Sejahtera (PKS) and others. When you spoke to the crowd you
focused mainly on the current conflict in Lebanon and the aggression of the Israelis.
You also criticised the weakness of the Muslim leaders of the world. Why has it come
to this? Recently there was the OIC meeting in Kuala Lumpur and the statement they
came up with was lame and non-conclusive; why are Muslim governments so scared
to speak up and call for united action?
ABB: This is to be expected from them. What else can they do? What else can they
say? There is not a single Muslim leader today who has the courage and commitment
to defend Islam and Muslims, they are all in awe of the United States and other
Western powers, and are indebted to them. This is what we call ‘Wahn’. Our
Prophet warned that this would be the case in the future, that the Muslim ummat
would be great in numbers, but weak in spirit - until they are trampled upon again and
again.
The Arab leaders and other Muslim leaders in Asia all suffer from this disease called
‘wahn’, this weakness brought about by wealth and privilege, and thus they have become
soft. That is why they cannot stand up to the kafirs and they cannot be firm in their
statements and policies. Their love for the world and all things wordly means that they
only think of themselves. Arab leaders worry more about making money from the
profits they get from oil and gas that they turn the other way when Lebanon is being
destroyed right next to them. Their neighbours are being murdered, but they only
make calculations for their own benefit.
This is why I have always said that it would be better if Muslims were poor. Oil wealth
has been a curse on us, made us weak and docile. Look at the Afghans, during the
time of the Soviet invasion. They were among the poorest Muslims in the world, yet
they were sustained by their faith in God, and God alone.
Muslims must believe that all power, success and victory comes from God alone. If
God wills it, they will win - no matter what the odds may be. The Prophet defeated the
enemies of Islam even when he and his followers were small in number. Why?
Because they had the ultimate power, God, on their side. This is the real superpower.
The Afghans did not have sophisticated weapons like the Soviets did, but with their
faith they defeated a superpower. That is when the kafirs feared us Muslims, when we
had discipline and faith, when we were strong in our hearts and not weak in our
stomachs.
This jihad spirit is not in the OIC now. Show me an OIC leader who can talk about
jihad. Not even the leaders of Malaysia or Indonesia have this, so how can we do
anything?
The only Muslim leader who has some spirit left is your former leader Mahathir
Mohamad, who called for a boycott of US and other Western currencies. He was
right, when he said that Muslim countries should abandon the US Dollar and trade
with their own currencies instead. Why should we use the Dollar even when we trade
among ourselves? Even though Mahathir did not openly call for jihad, at least he said
something. This was the least we could have done.
But the leaders of the OIC could not even accept Mahathir's proposal, yet they talk
about respect and honour. What honour have we got left, when nobody is listening to
us?
FN: Some would argue that this weakness stems from the fear of being seen as being
'too radical'. I have problems with this concept, for I believe that being a radical is not
necessarily a bad thing. After all Nelson Mandela, Kwame Nkrumah, Jomo Kenyata,
Ghandhi, Nehru, were all radicals in their time; and they did not compromise in their
opposition to colonialism, imperialism, racism and apartheid. So why can't we be
radicals now?
ABB: You are right, but the weakness does not come from the millions of Muslims in
the world. They do not mind being radical, they have no fear to speak out and to
protest and to jihad. But the weakness comes from these Westernised co-opted
Muslim leaders who just want to look good in the eyes of the West and Western
media. They are scared that the BBC or CNN may call them radicals, so they remain
soft instead. The problem lies there, with the Muslim leaders, not the Muslim masses.
The Muslim leaders swallow the advice of the Western powers and bodies like the
IMF and World Bank, even when it is bad for their countries and they know this. They
are the real hypocrites and traitors to Islam and Muslims. Yet as you say we should
not accept the idea that being a radical is a bad thing. Any movement for change will
be radical. Our Prophet was a radical too- he fought against the injustices of his
community and challenged the feudal order of his society, so they called him a
radical. So what? We should be proud of that!
We should be proud that our Prophet came into the world with the message of Islam
to change it for the better, and not for the worse, or to keep things as they are. What
use is revelation or religion if it doesnt change anything?
Today the Western powers and media want to domesticate us like sheep, to keep us
tame and domesticated. But why are animals domesticated? So that they can be
slaughtered in the end!
That is why they use the label 'radical' in the way they do, to keep us scared and to
keep us under control. This is true for our leaders, who have all been domesticated
and trained to speak the way their Western bosses want them to.
FN: So where do we get our role models then?
ABB: The only model to follow is pure Islam. Because Islam in its original form was
tough and hard, not weak and pliable. Islam is fixed, stable, ordered and disciplined,
and so are Muslims.
If we return to the real practice of true Islam we would be much stronger and that is
when the kafirs will fear us. That is why we need to uphold the Shariah and return to
real Islam. But the West is trying to weaken Islam from outside and inside. They
attack our people and invade our countries from outside, and they weaken us from
within with ideas like secularism, liberalism and democracy. This is all designed to
contaminate our pure Islam.
Why do we Muslims have to learn from them? Islam is perfect, there is nothing to be
added or changed. We have shown that Islam can rule the world perfectly for 14
centuries, and during this time of Muslim power we did not borrow ideas like
democracy from others, so why do we need to learn democracy from them now? As
long as Muslims were confident they could not be defeated, but now we are just
puppets.
This is why we are calling for the upholding of the Shariah here in Indonesia. We
demand an Islamic state, and not some form of Islamisation of society. We want the
state to be Islamic, with Islamic leaders who have the courage and will to implement
the Shariah in total. There is no other way.
FN: Can you elaborate a little more on that? What do you mean by ‘enforcing
Shariah with determination?’
ABB: Islam’s laws are fixed and that is why Islam is stable. Laws are to be enforced
justly but firmly, with an iron hand. This is the case anywhere, even in a family.
Look at my own case: I am the father in my family. It is my duty to enforce the
Shariah in my family and I do so with an iron hand. If my children do not behave
according to Islam, if they do not pray for instance, I will punish them. Likewise the
leader of any state has to do the same, he has to enforce Shariah firmly, for he will be
held in account later in the afterlife if he fails. If his society breaks Islamic law, who is
responsible? Is it not the leader, who has failed to enforce the laws of God? Here in
Indonesia we have such laws but they are never enforced, that makes a mockery of
Islam and Shariah.
So we want an Islamic state where Islamic law is not just in the books but enforced,
and enforced with determination. There is no space and no room for democratic
consultation. The Shariah is set and fixed, so why do we need to discuss it anymore?
Just implement it!
Right now we are drafting our own constitutional ammendents for Indonesia, the
framework for an Indonesian Islamic state where Islamic laws are enforced.
Indonesians must understand that there is no Islamic state without the enforcement of
Islamic laws. Otherwise it is just talk and nothing else.
FN: What about the Muslim leadership here in Southeast Asia? Earlier you criticised
the leaders of Indonesia and Malaysia. How have they failed in your eyes?
ABB: Indonesia is in a mess as you can see. We are a very rich country, with plenty
of resources and good people who want to live decent lives, but look at how corruption
has destroyed our country. We should be a rich country but successive Indonesian
leaders have left us weak and dependent on external aid. We are busy paying off
loans when we should be giving loans instead! And our leaders during the Orde Baru
(of former president Suharto) were secular, pro-American and entirely corrupted by
global capitalist forces.
As for Malaysia, you may be economically better off but your leaders are weak.
Badawi may come from a family of ulama but his faith is weak and so is his spirit.
How can Malaysia sign a free trade agreement with America and Japan? Are these
not kafir countries? And America today is an enemy of Muslim states and the
supporter of Israel. In Islam that makes America a kafir harbi (enemy) state, and we
Muslims are obliged to cut off all ties, diplomatic and economic with such an enemy
state.
Anwar (Ibrahim) is also someone who does not understand Islam well. How can he
talk about dialogue with America and the West? What dialogue? With murderers of
Muslims? Anwar is mistaken about his views on Westerners and Jews. The Jews are
cunning and cannot be trusted, as it states in the Qur'an. At the moment the United
States is just being the donkey for Israel, who is riding the USA.
How can we dialogue for peace in the Arab world as long as Israel exists? Israel
cannot dream of having peaceful borders because Israel has no right to exist, no right
to be there. That is the land of Palestine, for the Palestinians. How can any Muslim
leader say that Israel has the right to safe borders? It should not be there in the first
place!
FN: Is there no way to engage in dialogue then?
ABB: In Islam there is only one way, the Islamic way. Dialogue with the kafirs is
useless unless we Muslims are already living in Islamic states and not secular
democracies. When you want dialogue with Muslims, Muslims need to be in power in
their own countries first, on their terms. If the (Muslim) government does not impose
Shariah, it has to be replaced. As long as the government does not go against Islam,
we can still tolerate it. But once it goes against Shariah, we must oppose it.
When our governments engage with enemy kafir states, is that not going against
Islamic principles? When you dialogue with countries that are anti-Islam and kill
Muslims, how can you call yourself an Islamic state?
It is the duty for Muslims to oppose their governments when their leaders dialogue
with our enemies. It says so in the Quran (Surah 60:9), that those who oppose Islam
are our enemies and we must fight against them. So before we dialogue with kafirs,
we need to go on jihad against our own hypocrite governments first that are apostates
and against Islamic principles.
FN: So what kind of Muslim leadership are you talking about? What kind of Muslim
leader do you want to see?
ABB: All the answers are in Islam. As the scholar Ibn Taymiyyah has argued in his
work Kitab Fatawa, Islam is in two parts: the Quran and the Sword.
The Quran has all the guidelines, rules, norms, laws and punishments we need. The
enforcement of the Shariah is the sword we are talking about. Without enforcement of
the Shariah the Quran is just words in a book. It is a text with no practical meaning.
That is why the message has to be implemented and realised with determination.
Look at the sunnah (practice) of the Prophet. When he gave his speeches and
surmons he had a spear (tombak) in his hand. Why? This was the symbol of power.
His followers knew he was serious, and not simply giving empty talk. He meant what
he said and he did what he said he would do.
Sadly over the centuries Islam grew weak and we forgot that the Prophet carried a
spear when he spoke. The spear was replaced with a staff (tongkat) instead, as if
Muslims were weak and needed a walking-stick to stand up! We need to go back to
this original, strong, robust Islam. Like the Prophet we need to carry the spear
(tombak) again. If the Prophet carried a spear, then for us today we can carry an
M-16!
Muslim leaders today have fallen short of the Prophet's example. They mouth empty
pious phrases about how they yearn for an Islamic state, but they dont have the guts
or will to do it.
There is not a single Islamic state in the world, not even in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis
are hypocrites and friends of the United States; their leaders are all corrupt and
worldly.
The closest we ever got to an Islamic state was the Taliban government in
Afghanistan, but the Americans destroyed that, with their Western allies.
FN: But the Saudis claim that they are the defenders of the holy sites of Islam and
Muslims. What is more they are the promoters of Wahabism. How do you reconcile
that?
ABB: Wahabism is just a school of thought. The Saudi regime used the Wahabis for
their own political ends, to justify their rule and to control their people. Occasionally
they may implement one or two Wahabi ideas, but then again only for cosmetic
reasons. They impose laws on dress and public behavior, but what about the moral
obligation to jihad against the enemies of Islam? How can you promote Wahabism
when you remain a close ally of the United States, the supporter of Israel?
The Wahabis in turn are just conservatives with no agenda for social transformation.
Look at what they did to Islamist movements like the Ikwan'ul Muslimin (Muslim
Brotherhood) of Egypt: They condemned the Ikwan as revolutionaries and radicals,
just like the Western media!
FN: This tendency of Muslim groups to condemn each other has always been a
problem since the beginning of the Muslim community. Why is this? How come
Muslims cannot stop attacking each other?
ABB: They have left the path of true Islam, that is why they are divided into so many
sects and streams of thought. But the hadith tells us of how a follower of the Prophet
once asked him: "What will be the future of the ummat?". The Prophet predicted: "In
the future you will be great in numbers, but you will be small and weak, like froth,
bubbles, floating". The follower was shocked when he heard this, but the Prophet
insisted that that would be so, because the Muslims will be divided and leaderless.
Muslims need to realise what it means to be an Ummat. The Ummat is one family,
and every Muslim is your brother. It doesnt matter what the colour, race, or country
the other Muslim is from, he is still your brother, you must support him and help him
when he needs your help.
But the opposite is also true. Those who are kafirs are not your family. Even if your
own parents are not Muslims, they are not your family. They are kafirs, outside Islam.
You need not think of them as members of the Ummat. When we forget our ummat,
then we become weak and divided. All our divisions come from the West, from
Western ideas like nationalism and from their ideologies like democracy and
secularism.
FN: If it is unity that you wish to see, then surely someone has to lead this
community. Who, then, has the right to speak about Islam and on behalf of Muslims?
ABB: Those who speak for Islam and Muslims can only be the ones whose ideas
come solely from the Quran and Hadith. Not the liberals, who try to use reason and
rationality to interpret the Quran. This has become fashionable now, but it is against
Islam and is not allowed.
How can the Quran be interpreted rationally? These intellectuals and liberals want to
interpet the Quran according to circumstances, whereas it is the circumstances that
have to be adapted to the Quran.
It is clear that the Quran is not to be discussed by those who do not follow the rules
that are set. There is no democracy in Islam, so do not try to interpret the Quran and
turn Islam into a democracy to suit your needs. God's law comes first. It is not up to
the will of the people to decide what is right and how to live. Rather the will of the
people have to be bent to suit the will of God. It is not democracy that we want, but
Allah-cracy!
The principles of Islam cannot be altered and and there is no democracy in Islam or
nonsense like 'democratic Islam'.
Democracy is shirik (unbelief) and haram. Here we do not compromise. Those who
claim to be Muslims and do not support Shariah one hundred per cent are all munafik
and kafirs, they are out of Islam. No need to discuss with these people, they are not
part of the ummat anymore. There is no need to listen to public opinion: kafirs,
apostates, liberals, atheists - they are all non-believers.
FN: But how can this attitude lead to social and political change? Here you and your
followers in groups like the Majlis Mujahidin Indonesia (MMI), Front Pemuda Islam
Solo (FPIS), etc are calling for an Islamic state, with a legal constitution based on the
Shariah. But how will you achieve this in the context of Indonesia today which
remains a constitutional democracy?
ABB: Islam's victory can only come through dawah and jihad, not elections. Thats
why Islamic parties are on the wrong path, even the better ones like the Partai
Keadilan Sejahtera (PKS) here (in Indonesia) and your PAS (in Malaysia). As long as
democracy is their chosen path, the end result is haram. Nothing good can come
from that which is haram, is that not the case? So if democracy is haram, then what
kind of Islamic state can come from that? Certainly not a pure Islamic state. Elections
are quite useless.
The struggle for Islam can only come through crisis and confrontation. Islam is here to
change the world, not to be changed by the world. So there is bound to be resistance,
that is why the West fears us.
If we accept Western norms like democracy then we can never reach the Allah-cracy I
mentioned earlier. Democracy must be replaced by Allah-cracy and this cannot come
from elections. Those who oppose us must be educated, that is why dawah is
important, to show them that Islam is the only way. But if they still resist, and are
wilfully stubborn, or if they create obstacles for us, then they must be opposed. In
particular all the Muslims who oppose us are apostates (murtad) and they in particular
need to be dealt with firmly. We need not care for them, or feel sorry for them. They
were the ones who chose to reject Shariah, to reject Islam, and so they chose to
become apostates.
FN: And you are convinced that this jihad for Shariah will solve all our problems? Will
it solve the economic and political problems of Muslim countries like Indonesia for
instance?
ABB: It is the first step and the right step. Economic problems, political problems, all
other problems - these can only be solved when we have a firm and committed
leadership that is committed to upholding and enforcing the Shariah without fear.
Look at our region now: Muslims are being killed in Patani (Southern Thailand) and
Mindanao (Southern Philippines). But what do the weak leaders of Malaysia and
Indonesia do? Have they actually done anything, apart from reading speeches and
signing documents of peace? Muslims are dying, not in Lebanon but right here, right
in front of us. These are our brothers, our neighbours. But the governments (of
Malaysia and Indonesia) cannot do a single thing. This is what I mean by the disease
of corruption and wealth earlier. They are weak, cowardly leaders.
That is why we need to go back to original, pure Islam, and to follow our Prophet's
example. The kafirs never tried to fool around with our Prophet, they knew he was
serious and determined. Yet he was fair and just, and even when he had defeated the
kafirs in battles and in Medinah and Mecca, he forgave them. Forgiveness does not
mean weakness, but strength. But you need to be strong first, like our Prophet was.
He was strong but not arrogant. Muslim leaders today need to be strong like that, and
take a firm stand on issues.
FN: And this sums up your vision of Jihad today? Is this the sum of your own
approach to Islam and the problems affecting Muslims?
ABB: This is the Islamic view of things. We must never compromise, relent, give up,
submit to our kafir enemies. We must always keep to the Islamic path, jihad in the
name of Shariah, and never be apologetic.
So I agree that we must never be apologetic about being called 'radicals' today. Even
during the time of the Prophet his enemies called him a madman! So being called a
'radical' is not as bad! We should not apologise for this, or compromise in our jihad.
Today they call us ‘radicals’, tomorrow they will call us something else. These
obstacles will always be there, because the kafirs fear us when we get stronger.
Remember that jihad is what brought Islam to power and built our community. There
can be no Islam without jihad. Why, even if you want to build a Capitalist or
Communist state you need to have a jihad; a jihad for capitalism or a jihad for
communism. So why cant Muslims engage in a jihad for Islam and Shariah?
Dr. Farish Noor is currently working at the Centre for Modern Orient Studies in Berlin.
In his native Malaysia he is is a well-known columnist, speaker and academic.
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