In article <72ujdt$qim@acmex.gatech.edu>,
gt6234b@prism.gatech.edu (Josh Bardwell) wrote:
> In article <72tjgp$nmo$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
> James Hunter Heinlen <dracus@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >How is it circular?
>
> To paraphrase you (if I'm inaccurate, please correct me -- It's clear from
> our past conversations that we're using different symbol-sets and this is
> causing communication problems):
>
> The Universe is "everything that can interact with everything else".
>
> To then say that "If God affects the Universe, It is part of the Universe,
> and if God is not part of the Universe, It cannot" is ... well, meaningless
> for the sake of discussion. Maybe it's not a circular definition, but it's
> pretty clearly implied by your definition of The Universe. It's inherent
> in your semantics, therefore, as a topic of debate/discussion, it's moot.
>
> The semantics themselves are what we should be discussing here.
>
> Does this make more sense?
> Joshua Bardwell - joshb@cc.gatech.edu - http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt6234b

If we use the very strictest terms we know how to use, the questions
of what's outside the universe don't even come up. Nobody's knocking.

The universe is the bag that holds all the mass, energy, space and
time there is, and there's no outside. A lot of people will loosely say
that dimensional boundaries, like black holes, wormholes, hyperspace
or what have you, will put something "outside our universe" but that
is an overstatement. It's just gone deeper into the folds of our own
universe. If a black hole seems to go away because we can't see
its substance any more, and it no longer returns our calls, it's just
hiding. It's left all that gravity behind so we know it's in there. It hasn't
departed this vale of tears to go on to a better world, it's just sulking.

There's no time outside the universe. If you have a hypothetical
actor waiting in the wings where no time passes, how does she/he
know it's time to take the stage? More likely, any forgotten lines are
irrelevant, for your actor just lets the time slip away, and doesn't come
out until after the heat death of the universe.

Outside the universe is a term that begs the question. It won't mean
anything to me, without a lot of really fancy explaining. Until that comes
I will just treat it like a meaningless phrase and ignore it.

You can't hide infinity. There's none here. There's no place outside
the universe to hide it. There's just no such thing.

Playing math games, which you expect must produce infinity as a
result, only shows how bad math is, since infinity was brought in to
break its rules. That's where you can find circularity, in bad math
which will generate infinities after you stick infinity into its axioms.
Infinity is a fictional construct in exactly the same sense as Dr.
Doolittle, it has no referent outside fiction. It was never needed
to build a working and consistent math. Mathematicians made
a huge mistake including it in math. Mistakes like this have their
payback. That's where we are right now.

Regards,
Johnny Thunderbird
heavyLight Books
http://fly.to/heavyLight

Re: 2 Cent Rant [Pagans and Tolerance] soc.religion.paganism 981128