HOME		PRESIDENT XANANA GUSMAO - INTERVIEW WITH TONY WILSON This was conducted around the time of the US-lead invasion of Iraq in 2003. I have tried to stick to exactly what President Gusmao said during the interview, so the speech may appear gramatically incorrect on occasion. Also due to President Gusmao's soft spoken tone and thick accent, on one or two occassions I have been unable to decipher exactly what he's saying. Tony Wilson: President Gusmao, there’s been a lot of talk in recent times about unilateralist action by governments and sometimes the 1999 intervention in East Timor is raised as an example of unilateral intervention by the Australian government. How have you felt about the East Timorese example being used in relation to the current conflict in Iraq? Xanana Gusmao: What I must remind you that in 1999 when Australian troops led Interfet, it was not unilateral action. It was under Security Council resolution. Of course I don’t agree with Saddam’s regime, but I didn’t agree with the war. That is two things that must be separated. TW: And they talk about humanitarian abuses in Iraq, the Prime Minister here John Howard has mentioned very graphic things like the cutting out of tongues, and these sorts of things. Do you think there’s ever circumstances where other countries should intervene to take over sovereign governments? XG: I believe in the third millennium we must do everything to preserve dialogue. We have many means to persuade systems, regimes. If we talk about Iraq regime, why we don’t talk about African regimes? I believe that many people around the world are concerned that instead of developing awareness on democracy, human rights, civil society, to overcome the dictatorships we take actions everywhere we want. It is a little bit [inaudible] in the third millennium when we need more peace. TW: When you were facing what you no doubt saw as an illegal occupation of your country, did you think that force had to be part of the response to that? XG: I don’t know if you have heard, if you have then you must remember that an Australian journalist, now he’s a politician, Robert [Dunne?] went to the jungle, met with me, and from him I sent a message to all about peaceful solution. About peaccful means of solving East Timor problem, and we had to wait more than 10 years for a peaceful solution. Unfortunately the other side, the Indonesian side, didn’t accept the solution itself. It was why violence erupted before and after the popular consultation. But you see Soharto’s regime was endorsed by many countries, and one factor that many people maybe forget is that only when Soharto step down we could see more hope to this solution to our problem. It was waiting years and years till the United Nations could handle the problem and say, ‘No, we are going to solve the question.’ TW: With the question of reconstruction, you’ve just seen in your own country a UN organised reconstruction. Can you tell me that in Iraq, do you think it’s important that there’s UN involvement or can it be something that’s spearheaded by a few countries like the United States? XG: I saw Prime Minster Blair saying that the UN should be involved. I support this idea. I support this idea. I regret that the international community could not get the consensus before, but now it is imperative that the international community work together in terms of reducing the social impact, economic impact and to guide the political change in Iraq. TW: In your own experience with a strong UN presence; were there some real drawbacks to that? Is there resentment amongst the East Timorese people for the continuing presence of so many troops? XG: No. Only a small group who complained from the beginning. This is small. A very small group. A radical group. But the people of East Timor on the whole, they accept. Some of them in some parts, in some regions of East Timor – mostly in the western part of East Timor, on the border – they are concerned about the civility, downsizing [inaudible]. That is why we are are talking with the UN represntative there. The problem is not with the withdrawal plan but to see how they reinforce our capacity in police, East Timor army defense force to respond to the demand. TW: And there was some violence that we saw on the news maybe 6 months ago in Dili. Do you think that East Timor will cope well with the withdrawal of UN personnel? XG: Yes. It was an exceptional, very exceptional event. I recognise there are frustrations because of unemployment, but it is not a reason to violence. Fourth of January some militias came, killing people; killing farmers. The Australian troops and Fijian troops responded very well. But for me, in my opinion, we ourselves must continue to do efforts in terms of reconciliation. We tried over the years but didn’t have a good result. It doesn’t mean that we must give up. We must continue to try. TW: You talked about the economic frustrations in your country. It’s also been in the news recently that maybe there’s a perception in East Timor that the Australian government has been using leverage in terms of passing the Timor Seas Treaty in order to get a better deal over the Greater Sunrise natural gas field. Do you think that the Australia has been playing unfair on this issue? XG: As East Timorese I can think like this, but since 2000 we gave the capacity of dealing with these issue to the Prime Minister and cabinet. But as an East Timorese citizen I feel that we had an agreement and had no space to maneuver, to discuss in a better way. TW: And of course Australia withdrew from the International Court of Justice which determines maritime boundaries which also much be frustrating for the East Timorese. Do you think that there’s even a view in East Timor that Australia’s intervention and assistance back in 1999 may have been motivated by economic reasons rather than humanitarian ones? XG: We should see as a way to payback the debt. We were, East Timor, was the frontline to defenders of the Japanese occupation. At the time we forged a link with the Australian people. Many Australian soldiers died there, but also 90,000 East Timorese died at the time. Better to look more in terms of not a repayment but a kind of repairing. The repairing also of 24 years of endorsing the occupation. TW: Also there’s been reports that Prime Minister Aktiari does not have a great relationship with our foreign minister Alexander Downer. Do you have any comment on that? XG: As government officials I believe they good relations, but maybe in business they have different perceptions of the benefits. It is natural. TW: I wanted to ask you about the refugee question. I think it’s around 900 to 1000 East Timorese who came out to Australia a decade ago and were refugees under the UN definition. Obviously the situation has changed in East Timor since then, what’s your view on the return of these refugees? XG: We are incapable to feed these people. This is the only problem. We would like to have all Timorese back to Timor. We need everybody. The problem is only because of the economic situation. We don’t have shelter for everybody. We don’t have food for everybody, jobs for everybody. I just want to remind you that after September 1999, more than 150,000 people went to west Timor. We already brought back more than 120,000. But in the process of repatriation to everybody who has a means of life, like serving the Indonesian army, serving Indonesian police, or being civil servants, or having a business in west Timor, I always told them ‘You remain here [in west Timor]. Don’t go back. Because here you can get some money for your children, for your family until we have better conditions. Then they can go. We are not asking the Australian government to keep them. We are not telling the Australian government that they are still refugees. They are not. They have to change the status. We are trying to organise our youth not just to Australia, because we know the immigration law et cetera. But to Japan, to Korea, to Philippines, to Taiwan, to have on the job training that they can come again to East Timor as a workforce. Not the problem that we don’t want them. It is not the problem that we want to send 1,600 to come to Australia. No, just to stay a little more her until we have better conditions to accept them. TW: With the war crimes trials that have gone on, do you think they’ve been done well or do you think there’s been widespread frustration in East Timor that perpetrators of terrible acts have got off scot-free? XG: Of course there is a list of thousands of people indicted. In three years in the existence of the special court in Dili, they already have tried two militias coming from West Timor. The others are still in West Timor. In practical terms we cannot go inside West Timor and arrest our people. It’s where sometimes the people are frustrated with our statements about indictments, we say even though they are our people, we don’t have practical means to send them to trial. What about high level people? It is a problem. TW: Finally President Gusmao, what is your major concern for the world at the moment? XG: That intolerance can be a scapegoat to more violence. Instead of reducing the threats of terrorism, we are increasing the feelings of difference; the feelings of radicalism. The problem is this – the problem is we are living in an environment of fear; constant fear. TW: Thank you very much for speaking to us. All the best with the rest of your trip President Gusmao.