Jpelan - "Zenk went south to a federation where the lead babyface role was already taken by Sting."
 
Bogus Prophet - "But that wasn't even a consideration for the timeframe ('90-91) that we are talking about. Keeping Zenk from being a competitor to Stink was not the issue, whether Zenk was kept from become a breakthrough star is."
 
Jpelan - "Say what you want to about the inherent silliness of painting your face and screaming like a loon, Sting was
over like nobody's business. Should Zenk have been pushed over Dustin Rhodes? Sure, but pushed to where? World title?"
 
Bogus Prophet - "He was TV champion.  If he draws, push him to the NWA US title.  If he draws, push him to a World title."
 
Jpelan - "Not bloody likely, you show me a charisma-less Zenk main-eventing and I'll show you an empty arena."
 
Bogus Prophet - "Well, charisma is a tricky thing, some people may see it, some may not. It seems like a lot of females, including Missy Hiatt saw some "charisma" in Zenk..... Again, [the question is] how could he have been handled?  That is the great unknown."

Jpelan - "Let's toss this [issue of charisma] out; I must point out that Ms. Hiatt found that twerp from "The Wonder Years" to be posessed of a certain amount of charisma... "
 
Bogus Prophet - "*shrug*  Non sequiteur.  Zenk was a hunk that appealed to the chippies, that can't be denied.  They buy tickets and their asses fill seats also. So, his appeal tapped into multiple niches."
 

 

.... My suggestion of one possible persona/gimmick based in part on the success of the Stone Cold and Waylon Mercy personas, is a Ted Bundy gimmick, that is, a good-looking, likeable, attractive ladies man who's really a psychopath but who doesn't show it until pushed to a certain point (who, in fact, may not even realize that he's showing who he really is).  A beautiful babe valet who stops showing up after several appearances.  Interviewers query him as to what  happened to valet.  He snaps "It's none of your business what I do with my valets!"  Don't think a babe magnet serial killer persona, especially with a good work ethic, couldn't get over?  The workrate and woman-handling aspects would appeal to males and the bad boy aspect would appeal to women (Just stop and think about how many "love letters" Bundy got while awaiting execution, he even got married on death row). A real lady killer but with the wrestling skill to make his matches interesting.  And a little bit of madness thrown in to make his personality interesting."

Gancarski - " ... it's perfectly creative and it likely could work if Zenk managed not to piss off an established star or the booker or bitch about his contract.... [But] What did Zenk ever show you that suggested he had that level of charisma? [to be re-packaged as as Michaelsesque heel]"
 
 Bogus Prophet - "He had the following:

Gancarski - "Yes, but they also have political connections in the back."

Bogus Prophet - "What Zenk needed was a push and creative marketing."

Jpelan - "U.S. title or TV title? Sure, as an upper-mid-carder contesting for one of the lesser belts Zenk fits in perfectly. As part of a face tag-team to put over the heel team he also fits in perfectly. Wait a minute... Isn't that a pretty good summary of what he did in WCW? Got the TV title, was part of a solid if unspectacular tag-team and worked the upper mid-card?"
 
Bogus Prophet -"This may be a good analysis of where Zenk may have gone *if there were no change in persona, gimmick, storyline, and marriage to a worker who knows how to reallly work well with another worker)*..... But Zenk wasn't given the chance and we're stuck with what is.  What can learn from this?"

Jpelan - "If you're questioning whether or not he ought to have been pushed farther, then I might agree."

Bogus Prophet - "Yep, that's the point.  Give him a chance to fail or succeed instead of setting him up for a fall."
 
Gancarski - "But as we know, only a minority of wrestlers are given a chance at the headliner push. No one's saying that Zenk's not a credible worker or a decent midcard face. However, it's hard to buy the argument that he had that ineffable quality that separates Ric Flair from Rick Martel; the quality that makes a wrestler a credible headliner as opposed to someone who can work third from the top."
 

"it is the persona, the gimmicks, the storyline, the support to carry these things through (i.e.,the 'push') that really matters.  How far could Zenk have gone?  ...Much further than many seem to be willing to admit."

Bogus Prophet - "I think that this focus on an "ineffable quality" is counterproductive. I think that there is a basic formula that bookers like Vince and Paul Heyman use to develop a worker:
 

(1) Highlight their strengths, don't give workers personas, gimmicks, or storylines that they can't handle or don't feel comfortable with.  However, in a booker's judgment, a certain persona or gimmick may have such power that it may matter little what a worker brings to it; Kane is an example of this point.
 
(2) Minimize exposure of their weaknesses:  don't put workers in situations which their skills and abilities are inadequate.  There are good reasons why one doesn't see Hogan doing planchas or Huricanarenas.  Danny Spivey apparently was in pretty bad shape physically when he came into the WWF with the Waylon Mercy gimmick but, because his character didn't need to rely on workrate or a wide range of  wrestling moves, it was his personality and the limited number of moves that he was capable of doing that got him over.

 (3) Make the Character/Persona interesting: over and above their physical abilities, make the character someone that a fan would want to talk to or get to know better.  Mankind Foley is a great example of this.  Few people thought that Foley would have become a breakthrough star in the WWF (i.e., he was fat, he was a brawler, he looked like a  freak, etc.) but by dint of his character, he appealed to people and was able to get over (though, in  fairness, I'd have to admit  that Vince's allowance of "ECW hardcore" type matches probably did a lot to push Mankind/Cactus Foley to main event status).

Now, how far could Zenk have gone?  Keep in mind the following:
 

 (1) Heyman has taken lesser workers and have gotten them over with the fans (911 is the best example, [and] it could be argued that most of the ECW line-up qualify).
 
(2) On the basis of Calaoway's work in the NWA/WCW, who would have predicted in success as a deadman in the WWF?
 
(3) Who would have predicted that a big white guy from Minnesota [Scott Hall] and an overtall bouncer who once was Oz [Kevin Nash] would have gone on to  become spectacular stars in the WWF, one masquerading as a Cuban and the other falling into the the invincible Big Man mode, respectively?

Gancarski - "The power of vignettes, for the most part, and Bigger Is Better booking. The reputation Hall and Nash once had for match quality can be ascribed to Shawn Michaels bumping for them."

Bogus Prophet -  "I'm sure that Sean Waltman and Lesvesque would be happy to hear that. ..."

Gancarski - "Well, them to a lesser extent. But the *** ratings for their matches with Michaels were higher."

Bogus Prophet - "Even though every wrestler does bring something or some things to their role, it is the persona, the gimmicks, the storyline, and the support to carry these things through, that is 'the push', that really matters.  How far could Zenk have gone?  Probably much further than you seem to be willing to admit."
 
 Gancarski - "The same could be argued for many, many workers. For the record, Vince -- the alternative to WCW bookers at that point -- would've likely given him a Model or Racecar driver gimmick before giving him anything designed for longterm viability."

Bogus Prophet - "And you know this how?"

Gancarski - "The way he handled stereotypically pretty boy wrestlers. Martel modelled, Taylor crowed, and so on."
 

Gancarski - "And, just to beat this horse once more, we don't know how Zenk alienated Dusty or Ole."

Bogus Prophet - "We have one side of the story which has credible elements:
 

(1) Economic:  keeping contract workers like Zenk was expensive; Ole could and did get older workers in on a non-contract basis which saved money.
 
Gancarski - "Yes, but Zenk was around after Ole left. So Ole's gambit didn't save money."
 
Bogus Prophet - "*rolls eyes*  Tony, you checked Ole's books?  You do understand that Ole stopped putting guys on contract and instead brought them in on a pay by the match scheme?  My guess is, yeah, Ole did save himself a lot of money by switching from contract employees to older guys who were having difficulty getting a contract elsewhere."

Gancarski - "I was speaking with regard to already employed workers."

Rocco - "Despite Ole's counter-productive cost-cutting, WCW finished 1990 (8 months of it under Anderson's tenure) with a $6.5million loss. Mind you that didn't stop them hiring him again in 1993. And of course Dusty is still there spending Turner's money. Where's the accountability?"

 
(2) Control:  by bringing in and pushing people who either were intimidated by Ole and Dusty or who owed them favors, these folks could be controlled to a much greater degree.  There are very good reasons why cronyism and nepotism are used by bookers, even if it ultimately is self-defeating.
 
Gancarski - "Agreed. No one is arguing that point, and I thought it was implicit in earlier discussion."
 
(3) Youth and Potential:  Zenk, Pillman, and other were young, good-looking guys that attracted a lot of attention, especially among the ladies. Old, ugly,overblown guys like Ole and Dusty were probably jealous, especially if these guys reduced the number of ringrats that were available to them.
 
Gancarski - "I've read tomzenk.com as well. To accept Point 3 as viable in this discussion requires sweeping judgements I'm not comfortable making."

Gancarski - "We don't know who he pissed off in the back, or what was said to a booker behind Zenk's back re: Zenk. tomzenk.com gives us dish occasionally, like the nugget about Flair and AA scoring with Pillman and Zenk's leftover ringrats; but it's hard to take that salaciousness -- amusing as it is -- as the last word on the subject."

Bogus Prophet - "Who's word is?  The real question is what can we learn about the business from this? Is Zenk just a whiner that should be ignored or is he shooting and telling us something very important about the culture and the business practices of one of the biggest wrestling promotions in the US?"

Gancarski - "Perhaps a little of both. The same could be said of Shane Douglas or of Mick Foley or anyone else who got pissed and went heatseeking on an open mic. While the info is interesting, his "candor" doesn't necessarily implicate then-extant booking practices as being bad."

Bogus Prophet - "*rolls eyes*  Tony, tell me that you're kidding me if you're trying to imply here that the "then-extant booking practices" of Ole Anderson and Dusty Rhodes were GOOD!"

Gancarski - " I'm not saying that. I am saying that I'm not willing to reduce the whole situation to a dichotomy. Zenk wouldn't be saying anything if he'd been taken care of in the way he apparently expected. Just because Zenk had a problem with old-school nepotistic booking doesn't mean he deserves to be the Internet's cause celebre, given that there's a lot about this story that's been left untold."
 
  

Jpelan - "This is not intended as a defense of the cronyism that was/is prevelant in WCW, nor is it intended to squash Tom Zenk. I'm open to the idea that maybe bookers could have done a little more with him, but from all evidence that I have on tape, I don't see how you could defend giving him much more of a push than he got. From the evidence that we have, he was given a minimal push while guys with less skill, experience, and charisma got a lot more.  Have you seen any of the early Bret Hart tapes from Stampede or elsewhere?  My first reaction was how did this runt [Brett Hart] get to be the top guy in the WWF?"

Gancarski - "By waiting his turn for eight years? Flair was a chubby AWA jobber at one point. Pavement: "you have to pay yr dues before you pay the rent".
 
Bogus Prophet - " Counterpoint:  the Ultimate Warrior, Kevin Nash, Erik Watts, Dustin Rhodes, Greg Gagne,....

Gancarski - "UW was a musclehead. Nash was around a couple of years before the big Title push."

Bogus Prophet - "The only reason why Nash isn't out on the street right now with a sign saying  "Will Wrestle For Food" is because McMahon gave him a gimmick and a push  that made him a superstar.  I'm betting that Nash hopes everyone in the world develops amnesia about his career pre-WWF."
 
Gancarski - "The rest is obvious nepotism..."
 
Bogus Prophet - "Thank you for proving my point. ...

Gancarski - 'No one ever said that nepotism didn't exist. The skilled backroom politician can negotiate those waters, however."

Bogus Prophet - "Some guys don't have to pay much in the way of dues if they're a crony, a relative, or have a look that is marketable......."

Gancarski - "True, though I'd argue that Nash did pay dues. When you consider his work in Tennessee, Mid-South, and Texas, Warrior did as well.... [ re amnesia] I'm betting that Nash doesn't care either way. He's got his."

Bogus Prophet -  "Actually [how did Bret Hart get to be WWF champ?] was my reaction when I first saw him in WWF...
 
  

Bogus Prophet - "Clearly, Pillman and even Shane Douglas come into consideration as well. Pillman is now gone but Douglas has made a career complaining about how he was screwed.  Nonetheless, the issue at hand is whether Zenk was screwed. I think that the consensus opinion might be that yes, he was.  What is the lesson that a pro-wrestling fan should take away from this? I think it is this:

Gancarski - "This is an eternal lesson, but one lost on many people in this newsgroup."

Lost on some here.  A lesson that others can learn.

Gancarski - "True."

Gancarski - "Indeed."