Let's get one thing straight! This is an interview with the father of Wright State Coach Ed Schilling. Since they share the same name it can get confusing. It just got more confusing over a year ago when a third Ed Schilling (Baby Coach Ed) was added to the mix. That would be the grandson of the man in this interview.

If you are a long-time Butler fan you are probably familiar with Big Coach Ed, also known as the Big Chill. But I am sure this interview will shed some light on things you did not know about Big Coach Ed. He grew up in Cleveland and was the first in his family to attend college when he took off on a basketball scholarship to the University of Cincinnati in 1962. After one year he transferred to Butler University where he became one of Butler's most prolific scorers and rebounders. He played some semi-pro basketball around Indiana and Chicago. He coached basketball at Marion College where he recruited Todd Lickliter and for the last twenty years he has been an associate professor of education at IUPUI. He also teaches at the Five Star Camps and conducts basketball clinics in his spare time.

Upon looking at Big Coach Ed's stats it will become evident why he is the subject of this interview. On top of that he is just a plan old fun guy to be around. On Butler's "Top 10 Lists" or maybe "Top 20 Lists" he stands 19th in single season scoring (538), third in single season rebounds (319), second in single season field goals (219) and 10th in career scoring average (16.1). He also held the single game rebounding high of 19 against St. Joseph's (1/11/67). Big Coach Ed will probably learn something when he sees these stats because he really has no idea what his stats were.

We did the interview on a sunny Saturday morning. The day started off bright and early. I was up at the crack of dawn to drive to Indianapolis. I drank a couple of protein shakes, fired up a cigar and I was off. I even got there a few minutes early, which for me is unheard of. It shows how excited I was to interview Big Coach Ed.

As I sat there outside Hinkle Field House waiting for Big Coach Ed to arrive, I was relaxing in the sun and enjoying watching the coeds go by. After about 40 minutes, I finally figured out why Big Coach Ed wasn't there. In the spring Indianapolis is an hour behind Cincinnati. I could have used that extra hour of sleep. Before I could really start to grumble Big Coach Ed drives up in his 2001 DeVille Cadillac.

We went into Hinkle and took a few pictures. He was game for about any picture situation I could create. About five minutes into this in strolls Butler Coach Todd Lickliter. He wanted to make sure we got into Hinkle. He chatted with us for a few minutes and said he would go out to lunch with us later. Of course I snapped a few pictures of one of my favorite coaches with Big Coach Ed.

I picked Hinkle Field House because it is where the Big Chill played basketball and it is one of the greatest basketball arenas in the country. The sun was shining in the big windows at the top of Hinkle. As the Big Chill chatted with Coach Lickliter my mind wandered off as I imagined Ed jumping over some 6'10" center for a rebound or faking, pivoting and double pumping to score around a 6'8" forward trying in vain to guard him. I could almost hear 10,000 Bulldogs fans screaming in 1966 as Butler upset another Big Ten team. A loud thud brought me back into the present day as some workers were taking down some chairs from the previous night's graduation.

Coach Ed was working on a cigar I gave him as he finished up chatting with Coach Lickliter. In between puffs on our cigars and tons of thick cigar smoke we worked our way through the interview. I was amazed as he told me about how a 6'5" guy consistently out rebounded players who were much taller. I could see the determination in his eyes as we talked over thirty years later. I bet he was really something to watch. He was a battler, scraper and fighter. When I say fighter, I mean literally. He would deck an opposing player if that player were playing dirty. You can read all about that as you read this interesting interview.

After we complete the interview we got into his Caddy with the windows down to lesson the effects of my cigar smoke, and head off to lunch at the Five Seasons Club. As we got in the car he calls Coach Lickliter on his cell phone. He says "hey Lick we are going vitteling, you want us to pick you up?" He listens for a second and says, "ok we will be in the main dinning room." As it turns out a relative stopped by and the coach was not able to join us. How cool would that have been to eat lunch with both Big Coach Ed and Coach Lickliter? Big Chill said he was treating since he had to spend like $40m or $50 dollars a month on food at Five Seasons. Well he spent it at lunch all right! His eyes lit up after I put away my second big helping of food and ordered my third. I think he was saying to himself "I took the wrong guy to lunch." Well I guess I owe him a lunch. Maybe I will take him down to the Montgomery Inn Boathouse sometime.

Lunch with the Big Chill was a perfect ending to a perfect day; I can honestly say I really enjoy spending time Big Coach Ed. I also love watching a basketball game with him. I might as well just take out a note pad because once the game starts he breaks it down and critiques it after each play. I really learn a lot about basketball around him. He also is a great teacher about life, as you will learn as you read this interview. So it is with incredible CigarBoy pride that I present one of the most fun interviews I have conducted.

Schilling: To me, it's a very, very significant moment in my life. A milestone in my life and I say that because Butler, in most people's mind when they think of Butler, they think a very high-class college. Kind of a middle-to-upper class group of people attends and supports Butler University. The fact that I was able to move from my background in inner city Cleveland to be forever accepted into this tradition, is really important and significant to me.

CigarBoy: Which brings me to my next question. Kind of walk me through how you start in inner city Cleveland and get to be a star player at Butler. Walk me through that process.

Schilling: OK, I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio. Moved a lot from neighborhood to neighborhood and I finally graduated from Cleveland East High School, which again was just a school that was in the neighborhood, no playground no fields. We would have to run down to the park for cross-country practice. I was a high jumper, state champion, and we had to go to track practice at a field with six other Cleveland schools. We would go in the back of a truck, kind of like cattle - that was fine. My parents didn't have a lot of the social graces that one would expect, or the graces I would expect to have now, and my son Eddy was exposed to. My mother didn't graduate from high school. My father graduated from high school, and worked in a factory all his life. They were great parents but when I selected the college I was going to go to, it was my decision. I went on my own. We didn't really discuss it. My dad just said, "Hey, I'd like to see you go to Ohio State," and that was about it. I visited Ohio State, West Virginia, Cincinnati, and a small school called Ohio Northern. I finally chose Cincinnati and played on an undefeated freshman team there. But going back to Cleveland, the team was an all black team. I had a black coach and it was really a good experience! We got along well. We did pretty well and then the year after I graduated from high school; they made it all the way to the State Final game and got beat by a Dayton high school team. At any rate, that was a good experience. In track there were only two whites. If the races could get along today as we did in my high school experience, I think we'd have a much stronger country.

CigarBoy: Let me ask you about that. Back then, when you were in high school, you didn't have any race problems at all?

Schilling: Oh, there were and I could kind of first hand feel racism because being the one of minority in a majority, when we would go to a suburban school - the way we were treated. To this day I can almost see the article in the paper. We had to run down to the park, as I indicated, for cross-country practice. A reporter one day blasted East High School's runners for hitchhiking saying track runners are suppose to be getting in shape but they were hitchhiking to a park when in fact they were just hitchhiking to GET to practice. This guy probably had a beautiful all weather track in his neighborhood. But there were indications. Of course in our country we were just entering the civil rights movement, a little bit ahead of that. There were actually white race riots against blacks. I lived in a neighborhood that kind of bordered...I was in a black neighborhood but a block away from the white neighborhood.

CigarBoy: What year did you graduate from high school?

Schilling: 1962 so there were some of those things, but as far as our group getting along, it was a positive experience. But we are kind of deviating here. After that, I went to Cincinnati, and at that time, freshman weren't eligible.

CigarBoy: Who was the coach?

Schilling: Ed Jucker was the head coach and Tay Baker was the guy who recruited me actually. John Powless later became the head coach at Wisconsin but he was our freshman coach.

CigarBoy: I caddied for Tay Baker as a kid at a country club.

Schilling: Yeah? He's a great guy.

CigarBoy: When you are 11 years old, his bag is really heavy! But he tipped well!

Schilling: (Laugh) Our team was 15-0 and then a lot of guys, including me moved on. The summer after my freshman year, I was in a car wreck - broke my leg, dislocated my ankle, was out of school a semester. Then I actually had an opportunity to go to Butler or Ball State. The way I picked Butler - and sometimes you have to say fate is on your side - I looked on a map and said to myself, "Indianapolis is bigger than Muncie. I'd probably be happier in Indianapolis." Little did I know that I was coming under the influence of two great coaches, Stan Lyons the track coach, and Tony Hinkle for whom this fieldhouse is named.

CigarBoy: Where was Hinkle in his career at the time you met up with him?

Schilling: Hinkle was coming to the end of his career. I played and scored 31 points in his 500th victory so he was kind of at the end. He retired about 2-3 years after I graduated. So he was pretty old at the time. His system really never changed the whole time he coached. I talked with my son's high school coach, who also is in the Hall of Fame at Butler, and he was a good player, Jim Rosenstiehl. He's 76 today and the things he talks about in terms of their practice, what they did, and the Hinkle system they ran, is exactly what we did when I was here. At any rate, those two individuals, not because of their coaching ability, or in terms of athletics, but what they stood for, they took this guy from the inner city when most people at Butler were ready to sell me out. I didn't come here a smooth rock. I had a lot of rough edges. Hinkle and Lyons never deviated in their support and belief in me and I would have to say it's because of those two, as far as Butler goes, that made all the difference.

CigarBoy: Tell me about those rough edges. Where are the rough edges? Everyone's going to be asking me. I'm going to have to ask that question you know.

Schilling: Well, social graces. Like here's a good example. This isn't a scandal by any means but I joined a fraternity, which was another turning point in my life - Sigma Chi. I can remember the first meal I ate there. The housemother walked in and everybody stood and I said, "What the heck is going on? Why are they doing this?" I didn't understand that when a lady walks into a room a gentleman stands, or if a lady leaves a table, or whatever.

CigarBoy: Hold on I'm writing this down. I didn't know that.

Schilling: You write that down. We'll try to smooth you up a little bit too. I've heard bad things about you. (laugh) At any rate, there's here is an example of my temper where I punched a guy. We were playing a game and a guy tripped me, right in front of the bench and I chased that guy down the floor. As soon as I got up, people later told me that Hinkle sent in a sub because he knew what was coming. I chased that guy, we missed the shot, and that guy took a shoot on the other end and I just laid him out. Hinkle never put me back in the game. That's a minor rough edge. Another time, a guy kept playing the plays and got me mad in practice so I punched him. That was my answer to things. Instead of just being a smooth operator like my son, and walking away from a fight. I resorted to fighting. So I had a lot of those things to learn. Another time, again I was poor, it was a funny thing when Hinkle and I were talking about my coming to Butler. You know, financial aid for poor people was not a big thing then. It was either athletics or forget about it. So I would call him collect on the phone. You may have heard stories about Hinkle. He was a character in his own right. I would call collect, the operator would say, "I have a collect call from Ed Schilling, from Cleveland, OH," and he'd say "For Christ's sake! What does he want now? Alright, I'll pay for it." Then we talked. I asked if he was going to give me a scholarship and he asked what I would need. I said I didn't have anything and he said, "All right, I'll pay for everything." That was just the way he recruited. There was a great player at Butler, a center before me who actually got drafted by the Celtics and was an excellent player. When Hinkle recruited him, he said, "I have a scholarship for you. If you want it, take it. If not, I'll give it to somebody else." That was his big pitch.

CigarBoy: Tell me about Butler's record the years you were here.

Schilling: My Sophomore year, I only got to play a part of a season because I transferred in and I was recovering from that injury in the previous year. The next year I was eligible by mid-year. I really didn't get to play much. He was set in his pattern and so on. Here again is a rough edge. I've always been known, even today - hopefully to a lesser degree - to say what I think. If you could only understand how much of a god Hinkle was here, and I respect him more today than I did then. I would just run up to him and say; "I should be playing. I'm better than these guys." Nobody would dream of saying that to Tony Hinkle. He got a little upset and said, "I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll do it like a pro. If you don't produce, I'll take your scholarship." I said, "FINE, I'm better than these guys." There again, stupidity of youth. Fortunately, we played down at Evansville and he put me in. I did really well. Scored 8 quick points. and then the next year I averaged 20.7 pts, 12.3 rebounds and set records in those. We were like 16 or 17-10 or something like that. When I played at Butler, our conference was pretty good, Evansville, Indiana State, and Ball State were the better teams in the conference. In our non-conference that year, we beat Southern Cal and they only lost 3 games all year. John Block who played pro for a year was on that team. We lost to Ohio State by 1. We beat Michigan with Cazzie Russell, a three time all American and one of the great, great players at Michigan. We beat Oklahoma that year, lost at Illinois, lost at Michigan State. We split Purdue that year. We'd play road and home, and we played Notre Dame road and home. You can see the kind of schedule we had. So that was a very significant thing to have a winning record at Butler.

CigarBoy: Was that your junior year record?

Schilling: Yeah, my Jr. year record. Then between my Junior and senior year I blew out my knee and had major surgery. Then the training methods were nothing like they are now. No Cybex machines and all that kind of stuff that can help a person recover quicker. I had just the whole weight hanging at the end of the table. I'd have to go down there in the dungeon, into the bowels of this fieldhouse would be where the weight room was. I did recover and play. Lead the team in scoring and rebounding but we had a losing record. It wasn't as good of a year. To compare that, my son tore his knee up just like mine and came back that same season and played at Miami. They had better equipment and I think he's a little more disciplined.

CigarBoy: So it's safe to say that Coach Ed's little boy may be tearing his knee too. Kind of runs in the family, doesn't it?

Schilling: Yeah, and my wife's father is in the Indiana High School Basketball Hall of Fame. The track stadium at Kokomo, Indiana is named after him. He was the 1919 Gimble Award Winner. His name is Walt Cross, which by the way, is the middle name of my grandson, Edmund Cross Schilling, Edmund Michael is my son, and I'm Edmund Charles, and my father was Edmund A, in case you want to know. But Walter Cross blew out his knee, ended his career and didn't get to play in college. So my grandson's got 3 generations of knee injuries coming to him.

CigarBoy: Now, you're 6'5"?

Schilling: Not quite 6'5", the truth of the matter is I'm 6'4 and like 7/8"

CigarBoy: But you were playing like 7.

Schilling: But I was 225 and cheated like heck. I would hold. I had all those quick spinners (moves). Actually Israel Sheinfeld worked with me a lot at Five Star; he was my assistant there. He had some of the same natural moves and then we kind of worked to make them better. Then my son and Will Ray work on those same things. But that's what I had, those quick spins and I think I had a little more desire than Israel. I was like, obsessed with winning.

CigarBoy: Now if I understand it, you averaged 12 rebounds a game and you're 6'4" playing against 6'5", 6'10", 6'11", 7' guys and you are in there elbowing them out, pushing them out of the way, grabbing the rebound. Why? How did that happen?

Schilling: I thought, hey I'm the biggest guy on our team, I'm almost 6'5", and I just thought I was pretty strong, pretty quick, but probably the most important thing is I was really determined. I was almost afraid to say it, I was obsessed when I got on the ball floor and I think that's really what it takes. If you decide, 'I've got to get this rebound', you are going to get a lot more than the other guy does. You know I see guys get like 3 rebounds a game, 6'9" guys and it's like, what? Are you kidding me? I mean if you just decide, 'I'm going to get it," you just anticipate and go get it. I don't mean to minimize it but I don't mean to overplay it either. It comes to desire. If you have basic ability it comes with desire. I was a good jumper to. You have to remember I was the state champion in the high jump. I have 37"arms which is a whole 'nother thing. We are jumping all over the table here, but we should measure players by their reach instead the top of their head. If you have a long neck, which doesn't help you rebound. It's how high your arms go.

CigarBoy: Did they measure your vertical leap back in those days?

Schilling: No, it was probably about 70" (hearty laugh).

CigarBoy: If I stand on your shoulders it wouldn't be 70".

Schilling: Actually, I could get to the top of the square easy, without much effort, not much struggle.

CigarBoy: Wow, all right. I heard a story I gotta' ask. Charlie Coles, the Miami coach, told me a story. At age 48, at the Five Star Camp, he bet you you couldn't dunk the ball and you dunked it.

Schilling: Yeah, until my last knee surgery, I've had five knee operations, the last one did me in. But until then, actually I think when I did that with Charlie, I think I've had two more since that time, I was playing still competitively in the A- league, the top league in Indianapolis, leading scorer on my time and so on. I pulled that at the Five Star. I had on kind of canvas casual shoes, it wasn't tennis shoes. Knowing Charlie, he's a very gregarious guy, we've had a great relationship, and he bet I couldn't dunk. I went up and dunked it over my head and that even surprised Charlie. And believe me nothing surprises Charlie.

CigarBoy: I'd be remiss if I didn't get you to talk about Mr. Garfinkel. He's quite a character in his own right. How'd you come across Howard Garfinkel and get involved in Five Star camps?

Schilling: Garf is almost my son Eddie's second father. Eddie went to Five Star camp. I would make my son earn half of his tuition to go to camp. I would drive him out there and would drop him off. I just have this thing that I don't think a parent should be sucking around when his kid's trying to play, try to influence or whatever. So I would drop him off and just leave. He really impressed Garfinkel because he never missed a session. You have station 13, which is what I do now, which is a voluntary station after all day playing. He never missed one of those. He'd dove after loose balls, did all kinds of things. Garf took a liking to him. Eddie was from a small town, Lebanon, IN but in fact he went to elementary school in Indianapolis. I taught him a lot and advocated being tough enough to be like the streetwise in the city. Garf liked the idea that Eddie was streetwise but was a small town, polite kid and he called him "Thrilling Chilling." Then it slowly evolved to Chilling, then Chill, then The Chill. One day I came when Eddie was coaching at Five Star. After he graduated from high school, while he was in college he worked every Five Star camp, all summer, and took notes at every lecture. He has every lecture given when he was a camper or a worker there. One day, I followed Eddie around a little bit. Well, a little background. I do a lot of speaking at individual camps, high schools and I promote for Nike a little bit, but I never worked at a camp because I didn't like what went on at a lot of them. I saw what went on at Five Star and said, 'My gosh, that's really impressive.' Garf asked if I wanted to work there and I said, "Yeah, I would," because I believe in it. I've been going 13 yrs now. I'm going to go this year. They have them in Sidney and Big Man's Camp in Pittsburgh. When I started working, they had to differentiate between The Chill and me so Eddie became the Little Chill and I became the Big Chill, and that's how that name came about. Another thing at Five Star, my first year I did station 13. The 3 guys who did station 13 were John Calipari, Steve Lappas - now the coach at U-Mass, and I. When the NCAA said that college coaches couldn't work, Garf was in a bind. Eddie and I talked and I said what about Lickliter, who was then a small Danville, IN high school coach who did an absolutely marvelous job. Plus I tried to recruit him a long time ago, and that's another story. Then Eddie recommended Todd to Garf and Todd was the savior because he was the featured speaker, did the station 13 or the major lectures, and just did a tremendous job. Garf thought we were unbelievable. Then Todd, and Charlie Coles (coaching at the high school level in Toledo at the time) and I were coaching. The three of us would have coffee together and tell lies. That was as much fun as anything was at camp. So we would tell a lot of stories in the coffee deal, and became pretty good friends, the three of us. Then of course, I go way back with Todd. When he was in high school and I was coaching in college, I tried to recruit him. He was a fantastic point guard. Very smart, very hard worker. He was the camp savior when the college coaches couldn't coach there any more.