From: Jim Soltysiak
Reply-To: ARROW-L - Order of the Arrow BSA List
To: Multiple recipients of list ARROW-L
Subject: Re: Elections and LDS Scouts
Our chapter has had excellent relations with the LDS church. Several members of the LDS church have been prominent members of our chapter. One year a majority of the youth leaders of the chapter were LDS (chapter chief, vice-chief, secretary, ceremonies chair, and Ordeal Master)
We find that as long as we make the special allowance that all LDS members are allowed to leave Saturday night, we don't have any problems.
- Problems you could be having:
- 1. The old long-term camping requirement of 6 nights that was
recently taken away was in conflict with LDS policies. A LDS troop that
closely follows polices could only camp out 5 nights. With the new rule
change, this isn't a problem anymore.
- 2. Church officials in the local ward might think the ceremonies are against their policies. Either have church officials talk to a member of the church from a different ward that permits OA elections or with the permission of the lodge chief, invite a prominent member of the church to a ceremony.
- 3. Standard problems that we have with non-LDS troop that don't have elections. "It will take to much time," "It will take away my best leaders"
- 2. Church officials in the local ward might think the ceremonies are against their policies. Either have church officials talk to a member of the church from a different ward that permits OA elections or with the permission of the lodge chief, invite a prominent member of the church to a ceremony.
Just some suggestions. We have found that having good relations with the
LDS church can help the chapter. The only problem that sometimes occurs
is that you have to make allowances for people that leave the Ordeals
Saturday nights (ie. your chapter leadership disappears, you have to
schedule Ordeal ceremony early enough that parents can pick up their kids
by 11:00, etc.)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 01:48:00 -0700
Bruce, are any of the LDS Scoutmasters Arrowmen?
If they are not, then contact the Bishop of each Ward. Explain to them
the advantages of the Order of the Arrow. Point out the OA is a viable
and important part of Scouting. In this District we have approximately 7
different wards. Work on establishing direct lines of communications
with each Bishop.
If the Scoutmasters are Arrowmen, then invite them to attend, and
remind them of their Obligation.
In either case stress the importance of the Order of the Arrow in
Scouting.
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:07:19 -0700
This is a boy run organization, right. Let the boy members work on the
problem. It is harder to say no to a scout than it is to an adult
leader.
We have had no problem with the LDS in our District. They do have to
leave activities on Saturday, because they cannot travel on Sunday.
I have a former scoutmaster who is now on the executive board who says "I
have no use for OA." The guy doesn't like the OA and thinks we as a body
are evil because our "rituals" conflict with the teachings of the LDS
Church. I am going to try to smooth out relations with this prominent
member of the E-Board BUT I want to be armed with sources and info that
will help defeat this opinion. I am pretty sure it is a lack of knowlege
that bothers him really. What should I do when he trys to dash me with
this argument? I am going to try to get him to look at the ceremonies
etc, but I am not sure this will work. Help??? This guy is our biggest
nay-sayer in the whole council and he is very influential in our council,
so we can't just let it go. My plan of attack is to start out with the
fact that while he was scoutmater, he turned out more eagles per capita
and the troop was very acting in camping and scouting, but I notice that
they never had any OA Election nor any OA members in his troop, and ask if
there was something wrong. That will probably open him up to his next
criticism that I mentioned above. The guy is a great and has pulled a lot
of strings for the council and pulled a lot of strings against us behind
the scenes I was never aware of until recent, so it is quite heavy on my
mind. I don't want to pull any "...and if you have a problem with that,
talk to the bishop" type of argument, I want it to be very positive
because the we were actually looking into having the council nominate him
as he could do a lot for the OA and the OA could benefit him.
Thanks...
Rhett, can you enlist the help of the bishop? I have dealt with the one
in this area and they are very supportive of ALL SCOUTING activites
including the OA, you do have to allow them to leave on saturday because
they can't travel on sunday. Is there a person on the Executive
Committee this man respects who supports the OA? maybe you can enlist
them. Does he understand the amount of service that your lodge performs
and the cost to replace it? Hope this helps, see you at jambo.
Hi Rhett; are you dying the DC heat yet? :)
>I have a former scoutmaster who is now on the executive board who says "I
>have no use for OA."
That's too bad. He's missing out on a great resource for his troop, as an
e-board member, the council (as most of us on this list probably already
know).
>The guy doesn't like the OA and thinks we as a body
>are evil because our "rituals" conflict with the teachings of the LDS
>Church.
Well, he either doesn't understand the OA, or the doctrines of the LDS
church :) There aren't any inconsistencies between the two. Keep in mind,
and let him know, that the ceremony texts have been reviewed by religious
leaders to make sure that there's nothing offensive to any faith. The
ceremonies are designed to be inspirational and promote introspection,
without touching on a specific religious theme or doctrine.
I used to have a "fact sheet" that compared various Scout teachings with
scriptural information. I also have a good list of quotes from Church
authorities on Scouting. I'll see if I can dig those up and get them to
you.
>I am going to try to smooth out relations with this prominent
>member of the E-Board BUT I want to be armed with sources and info that
>will help defeat this opinion.
You might want to mention that a member of the First Presidency, Thomas
Monson, sits on the National Executive Board, and gives approval to all
BSA
programs; that Elder Jack Gosiland of the general Young Men's presidency
is
also heavily involved with Scouting at the national level (the general YM
presidency oversees Scouting in the Church), as is Elder Vaughn
Featherstone, who is now (I believe) an area authority in the Church; and
that our past National Chief is now a LDS missionary in the Montevideo
Uruguay mission. With this kind of national-level support of Scouting from
the Church, I don't think that there would be anything in a Scouting
program that is inconsistent with LDS practices. Many past church
presidents have received Silver Buffalos or Bronze Wolf awards for their
support of Scouting. Our leadership wouldn't support the BSA if it had
programs that were inconsistent with the aims of our young men's program.
There are also a number of scouters on this list, including myself, who
are
both active arrowmen and Latter-day Saints, who would be more than willing
to provide "testimony" of the benefits of Arrow membership.
>I am pretty sure it is a lack of knowlege
>that bothers him really. What should I do when he trys to dash me with
>this argument?
If you haven't already done so, lay out the steps that we offer to any
sincerely concerned adult. First, have him speak with the lodge chief, lay
adviser, and professional adviser, and go over any of his concerns.
Secondly, have him read any induction and ceremonial literature he feels
he
needs to. And thirdly, have him visit an Ordeal and Ordeal ceremony.
Remember Schoolhouse Rock -- knowledge is power :)
If that goes favorable, you may want to have the lodge adviser speak to
the
Council President, Commissioner, or Camping/Boy Scout chairman about
nominating him for membership in the OA. If he has a good track record of
supporting the council, and can be "converted" to the OA, he sounds like
he'll be a good asset.
>I am going to try to get him to look at the ceremonies
>etc, but I am not sure this will work. Help??? This guy is our biggest
>nay-sayer in the whole council and he is very influential in our council,
>so we can't just let it go. My plan of attack is to start out with the
>fact that while he was scoutmater, he turned out more eagles per capita
>and the troop was very acting in camping and scouting, but I notice that
>they never had any OA Election nor any OA members in his troop, and ask
if
>there was something wrong. That will probably open him up to his next
>criticism that I mentioned above.
That sounds like a good way to open up a dialog of what he finds troubling
with the OA.
>The guy is a great and has pulled a lot
>of strings for the council and pulled a lot of strings against us behind
>the scenes I was never aware of until recent, so it is quite heavy on my
>mind. I don't want to pull any "...and if you have a problem with that,
>talk to the bishop" type of argument,
I was talking to another LDS scouter last week about the Bishop's role in
Scouting. While as the leader of the local congregation, he needs to be
aware of any problems and situations for people in his ward, this isn't
really a church issue. In an LDS unit, if a SM is having problem in the
unit, the Bishop is a natural person to see for help. However, this is a
problem with a council scouter who just happens to be LDS (fear and
ignorance of the OA is certainly not just a Mormon problem! :))-- so
because it doesn't directly involve a church unit under the Bishop's
jurisdiction, there may not be much he could do. Your best bet is to treat
this as a Scouting problem, and deal with it through Scouting channels.
>I want it to be very positive
>because the we were actually looking into having the council nominate him
>as he could do a lot for the OA and the OA could benefit him. Thanks...
Sounds like you're on the right track. Please feel free to contact me or
the list if there's anything else we can do.
Good luck!
I am very sorry to hear of this reaction. We sometimes find that we in
the
LDS Church can get just as misled in our opinions as anyone else,
especially when we don't really know what we are talking about. In one of
the LDS official periodicals of just under a year ago, The Church paid
homage to the LDS Scout who was the National Chief. I help coordinate LDS
scouting in my area and that is my position within the LDS Church. I am a
member of the OA and my oldest son is not only an Eagle, but has held
position in the Lodge here in San Antonio. There is nothing in the
official ceremonies (notice I do not mention local embellishments) that
are
contrary to the teaching of The Church. In fact the emphasis on Cheerful
Service and Brotherhood is very closely tied to appropriate Priesthood
functions and teachings. I invite others to contact me or even the
scouting coordinators for The Church in Salt Lake City.
It might not be a bad idea to have several of these people write a
short note explaining that there is no conflict. Just a guess on my
part...
First of all, I am not a member of the LDS church, and am still figuring
out
just how the church is organized. Are there ANY strong members in your
lof\dge who ARE members of the church? Maybe you could have them talk to
him. I think he'll fight against anoutsider, if you aren't a member
either,
but would be open to hearing from "one of his own". Understand? If you
are
a member of the church, but yet he's still helped you out in the past,
then
he can't think it's all that bad if he likes you enough to offer
assistance.
I plan on showing the OA videotape at our Ocober or November Roundtable,
as
I, too, have had problems regarding the OA and LDS church. It hasn't so
much been the lack of elections, as it has been the lack of involvement
AFTER the Ordeal. I hope that showing the video helps us.
Good luck!
Seeing the question on LDS scouts got me to thinking about something. As
many of the brotherhood have pointed out the "No Traveling on Sunday" or
the "we have to be at the Ward on Sunday" and the logistical problems
associated with that.
My particular problem is that I am a firm beliver that unless a youth
arroman gets involved in the Lodge as an elangomat, officer, ordeal
master,
ceremonialist... or whatever.. the whole OA experience is lost on them.
It
is VERY DIFFICULT for boys in our local LDS Churches to do these things
because to do these things REQUIRES being out of town on 4~5 Sundays a
year. Not to start one of those my lodge area is bigger than your lodge
and we're in the middle of nowhere when it comes to the southern region
conclave.. so let's just say having program on Sunday is a necessary evil
of our locale.
It comes to mind because our lodge elections are next month and as always
they will be held on Sunday morning after breakfast. And as always we
will
have NO participation and NO lodge officer candidates from any of our LDS
troops.
The disturbing thing is each of the 6 LDS troops in the area are real
active and have almost perfect attendance at our fellowship, ordeal and
other lodge events... but because of the "Sunday Thing" they decline any
and all leadership opportunites, event planning, ceremonial team work,
committee assignments and lodge/chapter officer positions because they
"MUST LEAVE" the camp by 9pm on saturday night "WITHOUT EXCEPTION" which
means they can't (insert excuse here)[work on the event, participate in
the
elections, make the committee meeting, make the chapter meeting]
What I'm interested in is some ways to move these boys which are active in
participating in the lodge to leading the lodge and work around the
"Sunday Thing".
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, J. Busby wrote:
\ Seeing the question on LDS scouts got me to thinking about something.
As many of the brotherhood have pointed out the "No Traveling on Sunday"
or the "we have to be at the Ward on Sunday" and the logistical problems
associated with that.
Not too many logistical problems, in most cases...
\ My particular problem is that I am a firm beliver that unless a youth
arroman gets involved in the Lodge as an elangomat, officer, ordeal
master, ceremonialist... or whatever.. the whole OA experience is lost on
them. It is VERY DIFFICULT for boys in our local LDS Churches to do these
things because to do these things REQUIRES being out of town on 4~5
Sundays a year.
Not necessarily.
\ It comes to mind because our lodge elections are next month and as
always they will be held on Sunday morning after breakfast. And as always
we will have NO participation and NO lodge officer candidates from any of
our LDS troops.
Why not hold the elections on Saturday night? Why not create a new
non-Sunday event, like a lodge picnic or some such, held on a Saturday,
and hold your elections at that?
Hi, James,
>Seeing the question on LDS scouts got me to thinking about something. As
many of the brotherhood have pointed out the "No Traveling on Sunday" or
the "we have to be at the Ward on Sunday" and the logistical problems
associated with that.
I believe that the "no travelling" part isn't so much a doctrinal
requirement (such as the Sabbath travel restrictions for observant Jews),
but a practical matter related to having all young men in the ward on
Sundays. Keep in mind that probably most or all of young men in LDS wards
are ordained to priesthood offices, and have essential duties to perform
in
an LDS church worship service (probably equivilent to being an altar boy
or lay preacher in other faiths). If you have the whole ward troop out
camping
on Sunday, or en route to or from camp, it becomes difficult to have an
essential part of our sacrament service. Especially here out east, where
we
don't have a chapel on every block a la Salt Lake City, for me it's a 15
mile drive to the meetinghouse; so obviously we can travel on Sundays.
There's a very real, practical consideration to this.
It's also important to note that those restrictions, which are found in a
book called "Scouting: Relationships between the Boy Scouts of America and
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (aka The Green Book among
LDS scouters) are intended to apply to LDS unit camping. One of the major
tenets of the Church is that we all have our free agency; to decide for
ourselves what to do. I don't think anyone is going to look down on any
individual scout for deciding to participate actively in the OA. We have
young men who miss church all the time; sometimes for good reasons,
sometimes for less-than-good reasons; and church still happens. We just
try
not to keep all of the youth out of the chapel at once, though :)
>My particular problem is that I am a firm beliver that unless a youth
arroman gets involved in the Lodge as an elangomat, officer, ordeal
master, ceremonialist... or whatever.. the whole OA experience is lost on
them.
Keep in mind that the main, central purpose of the OA is to serve one's
unit. As long as any arrowman does that, he's getting the whole OA
experience. The rest of it, as much as I personally love it and thrived on
it, is secondary.
>It is VERY DIFFICULT for boys in our local LDS Churches to do these
things because to do these things REQUIRES being out of town on 4~5
Sundays a year.
Something a number of LDS youth do quite well, as I said. Families go on
vacation, other activities happen, etc. It's only a problem when you take
the *entire* group of young men out of the ward on a Sunday.
>Not to start one of those my lodge area is bigger than your lodge and
we're in the middle of nowhere when it comes to the southern region
conclave.. so let's just say having program on Sunday is a necessary evil
of our locale.
As Dave Scocca already pointed out, OA events aren't going to involve the
entire troop. A boy here and a boy there isn't going to make a difference
to the church, and OA events aren't going to happen every weekend. You
might want to mention that to the boys you'd like to see active. They'd
just want to make sure that either they have no specific duties, or that
they check it out with their priesthood leaders so that they aren't given
a
duty for that day.
>It comes to mind because our lodge elections are next month and as always
they will be held on Sunday morning after breakfast. And as always we
will have NO participation and NO lodge officer candidates from any of our
LDS troops.
As Dave pointed out, that doesn't necessarily need to be so. There are
alternatives to Sunday elections; and plenty of LDS youth have been OA
officers -- even national ones.
>The disturbing thing is each of the 6 LDS troops in the area are real
active and have almost perfect attendance at our fellowship, ordeal and
other lodge events... but because of the "Sunday Thing"
Just keep in mind that the "Sunday thing" is an important part of a young
man's growth, and is important to him and the church. It shouldn't be
treated lightly.
>they decline any and all leadership opportunites, event planning,
ceremonial team work, committee assignments and lodge/chapter officer
positions because they "MUST LEAVE" the camp by 9pm on saturday night
"WITHOUT EXCEPTION" which means they can't (insert excuse here)[work on
the event, participate in the elections, make the committee meeting, make
the chapter meeting]
Is every single lodge even held on Sunday? You have all those meetings
strictly on Sundays? Ceremonies on Sundays? It seems to me like there are
still plenty of opportunities for LDS youth to be involved in a lodge
program. Yes, they may chose to leave on Saturday night; but I still see
plenty of opportunity for participation. It might be incumbent upon the
lodge leadership to make sure that youth are aware of these opportunities
that are available to them. A person can go to ceremonial practices during
the week, participate in every OA ceremony at a weekend, and still leave
Saturday night.
>What I'm interested in is some ways to move these boys which are active
in participating in the lodge to leading the lodge and work around the
"Sunday Thing".
They already do work around the "Sunday thing." They leave Saturday night
:) Keep in mind that they don't do this to inconvenience the lodge; they
do
it as a part of their religious faith.
It looks like there are plenty of opportunities for any youth to
particiapte in the Order and be able to leave a lodge event on Saturday
night; they just might need to know about them. There are also plenty of
ways to avoid having events on Sundays. I'm certainly not suggesting that
we re-structure lodge events simply to cater to the whim of a small group
within a lodge; but there can be allowances made to accomodate our
brothers
who have needs.
For some reason these discussions seem to always center around LDS scouts;
I don't know what it is about them that's so enigmatic. A lodge might have
Jewish Scouts who can't participate on their Sabbath. You will have people
who need to leave weekends early, and then possibly come back, who go to
sports events or graduations or family events or whatnot.
I think the key for any lodge leader is to realize that there will be
times
when parts of his lodge, even active or potentially active members, will
need to miss parts of weekends for any number of reasons; and instead of
being a problem, it might be an opportunity to evaluate a lodge schedule
and program, and see what you can do to activate more of the membership
and
remove any obstacles that might hinder their participation. You're not
going to make all of the people happy all of the time, but you can make
most of the people happy most of the time. It just takes a little bit of
work.
J. Busby wrote:
> Seeing the question on LDS scouts got me to thinking about something.
As
> many of the brotherhood have pointed out the "No Traveling on Sunday" or
> the "we have to be at the Ward on Sunday" and the logistical problems
> associated with that.
The LDS youth do have a special need, in that they do need to be in
their ward on Sundays.
> My particular problem is that I am a firm beliver that unless a youth
> arroman gets involved in the Lodge as an elangomat, officer, ordeal
master,
> ceremonialist... or whatever.. the whole OA experience is lost on them.
It
I agree, the boys do need to participate in Lodge activities.
> is VERY DIFFICULT for boys in our local LDS Churches to do these things
> because to do these things REQUIRES being out of town on 4~5 Sundays a
> year. Not to start one of those my lodge area is bigger than your lodge
> and we're in the middle of nowhere when it comes to the southern region
> conclave.. so let's just say having program on Sunday is a necessary
evil
> of our locale.
In most instances LDS boys are not allowed to be out of town on
Sundays. You might want to get a copy of the "Green Book" which is the
LDS guide to Boy Scouting. They do have a few modifications of the BSA
program, ie ages of youth participation, with some different names for
groups, and the need for being in Church on Sunday.
> It comes to mind because our lodge elections are next month and as
always
> they will be held on Sunday morning after breakfast. And as always we
will
> have NO participation and NO lodge officer candidates from any of our
LDS
> troops.
By holding the Lodge Elections on Sunday morning, you are excluding the
LDS units. This is probably one of the reasons they won't run for a Lodge
Office. They can not attend Sunday functions. Hold the Lodge Elections on
a
different day, such as the Fall Fellowship. This is what our Lodge has
done. We have LDS boys as Chapter Chiefs, Lodge Officers, and
Ceremonialists.
Our last years section conclave was in Fallon, Nevada, which is about a
6 hour drive from our Lodge HQ in Stockton, CA. LDS Youth actively
arrived, danced competed, and voted in the Section Elections, which were
held on Saturday. Your Lodge should probably change the election date.
Every Lodge member should be given the right to vote.
> The disturbing thing is each of the 6 LDS troops in the area are real
> active and have almost perfect attendance at our fellowship, ordeal and
> other lodge events... but because of the "Sunday Thing" they decline any
> and all leadership opportunites, event planning, ceremonial team work,
> committee assignments and lodge/chapter officer positions because they
> "MUST LEAVE" the camp by 9pm on saturday night "WITHOUT EXCEPTION" which
> means they can't (insert excuse here)[work on the event, participate in
the
> elections, make the committee meeting, make the chapter meeting]
You need to work with the Church leadership on the time thing. Our
Ceremonies usually are finished by 10:00PM, then we have a crackerbarrel
on Saturday Night after 10:00. The time 9:00 PM is not carved in stone.
Some of our LDS boys leave just before the crackerbarrel, and some leave
just afterwards. Most of our Lodge functions are a minimum of 2 - 4 hours
away. We work around it.
You will find most of your LDS units to be very active. Last years
National Chief was a member of the LDS. The entire purpose of the OA
program is to build the character and moral values of the Boy. This is
the reason the LDS sponsors a BSA unit in just about every ward. They
wish to also build the character and moral values, but they also wish to
learn leadership skills. The OA program is approved by the LDS Church.
Work with the local Bishop, and or Stake President to solve the time
thing.
LDS boys can not participate on Sundays, that is a fact. We should, as
Arrowmen respect that fact, and realize LDS boys can not participate on
Sundays. Change the Sunday election to a different day. It can be done,
it works here. (Have you ever seen how big California is?)
> What I'm interested in is some ways to move these boys which are active
in
> participating in the lodge to leading the lodge and work around the
"Sunday
> Thing".
Hopefully these ideas I'v shared with you will help.
YIB
Bill Baker TTFN
At 14:23 -0600 on 7/16/1997, J. Busby mailed Speaking of LDS Scouts:
> but because of the "Sunday Thing" they decline any
>and all leadership opportunites, event planning, ceremonial team work,
>committee assignments and lodge/chapter officer positions because they
>"MUST LEAVE" the camp by 9pm on saturday night "WITHOUT EXCEPTION"
Brandon can speak to that better than I, but we do seem to have LDS
participation on Sundays. We organize an LDS service on Sunday as well. It
may be that there is some sort of dispensation granted. In some local
wards
the youth ministry truly suffers if some of the boys are missing, and that
can be a real concern to those involved; and staying over 'til Sunday is
not a universal thing.
At 05:13 AM 7/17/97 -0600, Ted Burton (ted.burton@mccall.id.us) wrote:
>At 14:23 -0600 on 7/16/1997, J. Busby mailed Speaking of LDS Scouts:
>> but because of the "Sunday Thing" they decline any
>>and all leadership opportunites, event planning, ceremonial team work,
>>committee assignments and lodge/chapter officer positions because they
>>"MUST LEAVE" the camp by 9pm on saturday night "WITHOUT EXCEPTION"
>Brandon can speak to that better than I, but we do seem to have LDS
>participation on Sundays. We organize an LDS service on Sunday as well.
It
>may be that there is some sort of dispensation granted. In some local
wards
>the youth ministry truly suffers if some of the boys are missing, and
that
>can be a real concern to those involved; and staying over 'til Sunday is
>not a universal thing.
Obviously, there are exceptions to the rule -- but most youth leaders in
the church, and I in agreement with them, would say that they should be
exceptions, not the rule. The problem, as Ted truly says, is if you pull
them all -- which is why unit camping on Sundays is really really rare. We
do try to take addvantage of long weekends and school vacations to provide
as much unit camping as we can; and many LDS units still camp monthly,
even
if they're usually shorter trips.
However, we do have LDS youth you participate at Philmont, at Jamboree, at
NOAC, and other long-term/long-distance events; and in many cases we make
accomodations in the home congregation to handle their roles while they're
away, and we provide services for the youth wherever they are. Services
are
arranged with the consent of local church authorities; either the
travelling group will have it's own priesthood leadership with them (since
we have a lay priesthood and not a professional one), or the local
authorities will supply priesthood leadership. This is usually done where
it's impractical to return in time, such as on a bus trip back from
Philmont, or where there's no other option except to not participate --
such as during a NOAC, where Sunday is the first day of the program.
For an individual, though, they can decide for themselves if they want to
attend Scouting functions on Sundays or not. Some will, some won't.
There's
not really a right or wrong about either decision. I have no problem
missing church on Sunday due to Scouting events, but I make sure that I
don't have a responsibility I'd be shirking. I know other Scouts and
Scouters who will leave after the ceremony; many times it's because
they'll
have a specific role -- a talk in church or a Sunday school lesson to
teach
-- that they need to be back for.
So, I guess the long and the short of it is that LDS scouts may or may not
participate in Scouting on Sundays. That's definitive, huh? :)
I still think the responsibility lies on the lodge leadership to work
around concerns of all members, certainly not just LDS. It's not that hard
to do, and shouldn't be a problem if everyone works together. Novel idea,
eh? :)
As the original person who put forth the problems our lodge has in
accommodating LDS units, I first wanted to point out that I am in a bit of
a learning stage and my goal is to increase participation in my chapter
and
lodge from EVERY unit in my chapter. I will admit that there are some
problems with our current Lodge set up, and I even disagree with some of
the changes made during the 5 years I was off at college, but I'm now
forced to work around them or change them over the course of time.
First off I think it is important for everyone to know that our Council
Camp is 2 1/2 ~ 3 hours away from the metropolitian areas of the council.
It is also the closest "scout operated" camping facility that can
accommodate the number of individuals that attend a fellowship weekend.
So
for everyone that has suggested thursday events or starting things earlier
on Friday that is pretty much out of the question. I think everyone should
also know that our council utilizes that facility as our summer camp and
we
are currently running 8 weeks of camp. When you couple that with 2 staff
weeks (one before and one after) it utilizes 10 of the 12 school break
weeks. So only camp oriented OA activities happen in the summer around
here. FYI, our camp is Called the Buffalo Trail Scout Ranch (BTSR) and it
is 6,000 Ac of rugged mountian terrain near Ft. Davis Texas (yes that is
the place where the Republic of Texas Nuts were holed up in a mobile home
several months ago).
It is also important to know that we -=used=- to hold a special meeting in
September at a facility that is a bit closer (only 1 1/2 to 2 hrs from the
metropolitian areas) where all we did were the elections and training.
This allowed us to hold training Friday Night and during the day on
Saturday and have the elections after dinner on Saturday. HOWEVER, high
school football reigns supreme in this part of the world and since we were
not holding an ordeal or brotherhood at this event is was only attended by
those seeking office or those who aspired to do that some day. So in the
interest of involving more of the lodge in the officer elections, it was
moved (while I was in college) to the first ordeal weekend after summer
camp when attendance is at it's maximum.
To say the least it is a perplexing problem.. and one I'm trying to equip
myself to make some rational and viable recommendations to our lodge
leadership.
As always my fellow Arrowmen
Thank you for the insight and education
Are y'all sure that LDS may travel on sundays? ALL of our LDS troops that
attended summer camp met at 4:30am to get to camp by 6am so they wouldn't
travel on Sunday...now unless the wards meet on sunday night late, it
seems as if maybe they do not know the regs. Clarification, are LDS
allowed to travel on sundays if it doesn't interfere with ward meetings
(services) as scout groups?
At 02:14 AM 7/18/97 -0800, Rhett Skelton wrote:
>Are y'all sure that LDS may travel on sundays? ALL of our LDS troops
that
>attended summer camp met at 4:30am to get to camp by 6am so they wouldn't
>travel on Sunday...now unless the wards meet on sunday night late, it
>seems as if maybe they do not know the regs.
Rhett, I'm sure that they (LDS troops) know the rules under which they
operate. DOn't assume that just because *you* don't understand something
or
see what seems to you to be a contradiction, the fault lies with the other
party.
>Clarification, are LDS
>allowed to travel on sundays if it doesn't interfere with ward meetings
>(services) as scout groups?
It's very similar to the parable of the ox falling into the hole on the
Sabbath. Do you let the ox sit in the hole until the Sabbath is over, or
do
you get down in the hole and push the ox out right away? (Although I've
yet
to meet a man who can lift an ox, but when I do I sure hope he's friendly!
:)) Sometimes things just need to be done, no matter what it takes to do
them. As any unit leader knows, getting kids to camp is one of those
things! :)
The church scouting manual for Church units says that travel to and from,
and participation in, Scouting events on Sundays is "not approved."
(direct
quote). Generally, that's sound advice to be followed, when you can make
arrangements around it (such as Saturday arrival for troops, which not all
camps offer). Otherwise, they travel on Sunday, if they need to get the
kids to camp. I do know of troops that also arrange for Monday arrivals,
although that seems to limit program time and isn't generally used nor
recommended.
Different local leaders will have varying tolerances for this kind of
thing. I guess the important thing is to work with the individual units
and
their preferences.
If anyone's going to continue a discussion of how the LDS church runs
Scouting, we might want to keep it OA-related; otherwise, it's a topic
probably better left to Scouts-L or Scouts-LDS, or for people to ask
directly to LDS members of this list.
At 09:30 -0600 on 7/17/1997, Branden Morris mailed Re: Speaking of LDS
Scouts:
>So, I guess the long and the short of it is that LDS scouts may or may
not
>participate in Scouting on Sundays. That's definitive, huh? :)
And allow me to say, as a non-LDS participant in the OA, that the last
thing any of us should do is question another Arrowman's view of his duty
to God. I am personally not exactly orthodox & ordinary religion-wise, and
would appreciate return of the favor.
>I still think the responsibility lies on the lodge leadership to work
>around concerns of all members, certainly not just LDS. It's not that
hard
>to do, and shouldn't be a problem if everyone works together. Novel idea,
>eh? :)
Too often novel, and wholly appropriate.
Please understand that what I am about to say is not focussed on the
original post, and I am not suggesting that the original post was
motivated
by the kind of thinking I am about to address.
We must always guard ourselves against the arrogance of assuming that
'our'
way is the 'normal' way and that 'other' people's way is 'different' in
some negative sense. Whenever we make a schedule, or find out that a
schedule is inconvenient for some of our Brothers, we should reflect, and
be very careful to set aside even unconscious preconceptions.
People in this land have died, have been persecuted, have been
dispossessed, because their belief in the 'One'" has been deemed heretical
and pagan, even satanic, because the particular word "God" or "Jesus" was
not used, or was being used by 'those people'. The LDS were hounded out of
the East and often denied Civil Rights elsewhere because of such a
perceived evil. The concept that the monotheistically identified God of
one
religion is not the monotheistically identified 'God' of some other
religion is the basis of the death of thousands, if not millions, and is a
wholly unnecessary conclusion. I am not asking that onyone accept my
concept of the Divine. Please, just don't treat me or anyone else as if we
were really supposed to accept as 'of course' the consequences of someone
else's view of the Divine.
Go stand by the shore of a mountain lake, with the morning sun sparkling
off the water, and the whole forest awakening with its many thousands of
little and large noises. Experience the beaver, the fox, and should you be
very lucky indeed, our brother, the wolf. Stand there in silence as
counseled by the words of the Old Testament: "Be still, and know that I am
God."
In the awesomeness of the outdoors in which we as honor campers are
allegedly fully at home, some of us can find our God. Any day of the week.
But I cannot insist that anyone go out there with me on his Sabbath. That
would dishonor him. if you find me on my Sabbath, be still and let me be.
So now I will step down off my soapbox, and return to my living room, and
my wife of 25 summers this year. All my jury trials tommorrow were
resolved
favorably to the People; it is amazing how defendants mellow out when the
Judge is tommorrow. Time recovered from the schedule is precious. I am
declaring holiday, and intend to adjourn to the Council Camp and wander up
to the OA ceremony bowl. It is a very meaningful place for me. With luck I
will see the deer, mink, marten, and hundreds of birds. The Creator does
good work.
Peace, brothers!
From: Bill Baker
To: Multiple recipients of list ARROW-L
Subject: Re: Elections and LDS Scouts
From: Barry Griffin
To: Multiple recipients of list ARROW-L
Subject: Re: Elections and LDS Scouts
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:18:50 -0800
From: Rhett
Skelton
Reply-To: ARROW-L - Order of the Arrow BSA List
To: Multiple recipients of list ARROW-L
Subject: Help with LDS Related "religious conflict"
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:32:12 -0400
From: "John A. Gasink"
To: Multiple recipients of list ARROW-L
Subject: Re: Help with LDS Related "religious conflict"
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:26:09 -0500
From: Branden Morris
Reply-To: ARROW-L - Order of the Arrow BSA List
To: Multiple recipients of list ARROW-L
Subject: Re: Help with LDS Related "religious conflict"
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:40:57 -0500
From: Dale Mooso
Reply-To: ARROW-L - Order of the Arrow BSA List
To: Multiple recipients of list ARROW-L
Subject: Re: Help with LDS Related "religious conflict"
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:08:26 -0600
From: Earl Needham
Reply-To: ARROW-L - Order of the Arrow BSA List
To: Multiple recipients of list ARROW-L
Subject: Re: Help with LDS Related "religious conflict"
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:17:43 -0400
From: "Mayhew, Robert SSGT USAF
J2"
Reply-To: ARROW-L - Order of the Arrow BSA List
To: Multiple recipients of list ARROW-L
Subject: Re: Help with LDS Related "religious con
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:26:13 -0500
From: "J. Busby"
Reply-To: ARROW-L - Order of the Arrow BSA List
To: Multiple recipients of list ARROW-L
Subject: Speaking of LDS Scouts
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:47:48 -0400
From: Dave Scocca
Subject: Re: Speaking of LDS Scouts
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:11:21 -0500
From: Branden Morris
Subject: Re: Speaking of LDS Scouts
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:42:04 -0700
From: Bill Baker
Subject: Re: Speaking of LDS Scouts
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:13:52 -0600
From: Ted Burton
Subject: Re: Speaking of LDS Scouts
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:30:36 -0500
From: Branden Morris
Subject: Re: Speaking of LDS Scouts
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:35:21 -0500
From: "J. Busby"
Subject: My Education (and Fun!) as a Youth Turned Advisor..(was LDS &
Sunday)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:14:50 -0800
From: Rhett
Skelton
Subject: Travellin LDS Scouts on Sundays?
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:06:09 -0500
From: Branden Morris
Subject: Re: Travelling LDS Scouts on Sundays?
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:23:34 -0600
From: Ted Burton
Subject: Re: Speaking of LDS Scouts
Derek Pillie
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Page last updated November 14, 2000
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