IOSH EDINBURGH BRANCH
Minutes of 188 Edinburgh Branch Meeting
Craighouse Campus, Napier University, Edinburgh – Thursday 10 January 2008 - 130pm
Sederunt: A Rankine R Osborne V Stewart B Johnston G Pearson A Bell
T Stockdale J Green C Pender M Downer S Ashton J Robertson J Fell
P Ager R Innes B Roache G O’Neill B Innes(? PKC) D Allan C Medd
P Gibson P Graham A Diment I Scragg M Hardie G MacNab K O’Donnell
I Sinclair C Irvine I M Murray M Scholz P Swinson H Gardner K Ferguson
M Galloway D Sinclair S Page G Fraser G Miller J Brannigan C Eaton
G Boag J Hepburn M Dunne A Reid L Crichton B Morris V Melville
G MacGregor C Castell M Watson F Young R Turner L Roberts R Bradford
C Cave D Chalmers T Neilson C Watt S Wilson A McNeill C McGregor
L Murray R Walker S Boucher B Cherrie R Paterson R Lovering J Davis
M Bancroft D Ward J Reid B Cox R Hunter D Raeburn J C Peoples
R Brownlie N Doherty C McGlade J Burt S Keddie K Breem R Reed
S McMorland L Young B Davidson P Veitch M Johnstone S McColm R Brydon
R Brown N Barclay S Forbes A Sharman J Hackitt R McLean M Richards
M Grimmer S Daly F Johnston K Lloyd S Stanfield I O’Neill
M ???(Emtelle)
Apologies: Alan Curran, Bob Bertram, Ronnie Weir, Ali McLeod, Susan Nazareth, Derek Cawkwell, Clive Willmott, Dick Morrison, Tony Sayer, Ali Milne.
1 Chair: Andrew Sharman took the Chair.
2. Minutes of previous meeting: December 2007
· Receipt – anyone not in receipt please email Secretary.
· Accuracy: Add K Lloyd to apologies Proposer – Julian Davis ; Seconder – Les Roberts.
· Matters arising – none not on agenda.
3 Correspondence:
The Grange:
Membership
Affiliate 97 Chartered Fellow 22 Chartered Member 285 Fellow 3
Graduate 48 Life Member 5 Member 80 Technician Member 290
Total 830
Membership: Groups
Aviation and Aerospace 2 Comm/Media 7 Construction 220 Consultancy 60
Education 38 Fire Risk Managt 44 Food,Drink/Hospitality 4 Hazardous Ind. 15
Healthcare 44 International 21 Offshore 45 Railway 12
Public Services 110 Retail/Distribution 10 Rural Industries 13 Safety Sciences 22
Environmental/Waste Management 112
Live Consultation Documents that IOSH is seeking member’s views on:
The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE)Draft guidanceWorkplace health promotion: how to encourage employees to be physically active23January
Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory ReformReview/Call for evidenceImproving outcomes from health and safety: A call for evidence 24January
Department for Communities and Local Government.Consultation documentA centre of excellence for the fire and rescue service 25January Online submission available
Health and Safety Commission Consultation document CD214Proposals for Health and Safety (Miscellaneous Amendment and Revocations) Regulations 25January
The Sentencing Guidelines Council Consultation PaperSentencing for corporate manslaughter consultation 31January
Department for Business Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Consultation documentImplementing the Services Directive in the UK 04February
The Audit Commission Consultation document Use of resources assessment 2008/9 08February
The Department of Health Pandemic Influenza: Human resources guidance for the NHS15 February
Jobs
SACRO NATIONAL OFFICE - HEALTH AND SAFETY ADVISOR
· 35 hours per week Final salary pension scheme; 25 days annual leave plus 12 public holidays
Salary: £30,084 – £31,821 per annum www.sacro.org.uk Closing date: Fri 25 January 2008 Interviews: Mon 11 February 2008
Events
· SCOTTISH CHAMBER OF SAFETY CONFERENCE: DYNAMIC EARTH – EDINBURGH: Tuesday February 26th 2008. alan.harwood@intl.fmcti.com
· Protecting Public Service Workers - Radisson SAS Glasgow Wed 27 February 2008
· David McKenna - Chief Executive : Victim Support Scotland; N
· Nicola Sturgeon - MSP Deputy First Minister & Cabinet Secretary For Health & Well Being: The Scottish Government
· Grahame Smith - STUC General Secretary;
· Linda Shanahan - Manager: Scotland's Protection of Public Service Workers Project;
>· Peter Brown - Director of Health and Work Division: Health & Safety Executive.
4. Group Reports
Forth and Tay District: Next meeting in February will also be their AGM.
Public Services: Marion Johnstone reported that the National safety Sympsoium – Cutting Edge Safety – would be 7-9 Sept. The guidance for elected members was with the publishing dept at The Grange.
5. Members Items
· From the floor: there were no items. Andrew encouraged members to use this slot – it was a useful opportunity to seek advice - if it was felt that the subject was too sensitive to be identified with any one organization then members could ask a member of the Executive to do so on their behalf.
· Liz Crichton reported that Historic Scotland would shortly be seeking a Chartered Safety and Health Practitioner.
· 10 Minute presentation: Dr Miklas Scholz gave and overview of the Institute of Environmental Management and Assessment (IEMA) and related activities in Scotland.
Miklas introduced himself with an apology for the form of attire he had on that day, but he was in fact standing in for another speaker (Russell Foster) who had been unable to attend at very short notice and Miklas had stepped into the spot but it was obvious he said that his choice of casual rather than formal attire first thing in the morning had been wrong.
IEMA Background
IEMA had been formed by a merger in 1999 of Environmental Auditors Registration Association, Institute of Environmental Assessment & Institute of Environmental Management and now boasts a membership in excess of 12,000 dedicated to the promotion of sustainable development and to the professional development of environmental practitioners across many industrial sectors.
Membership
Miklas then showed the route which members can take from Student, Graduate or Affiliate, through Associate & Member to Fellow of the Institute, where both Members and Fellows are recognized as Chartered Environmentalists.
The benefits of membership were listed as
· Proves competence for those working in the sector
• It is recognised professionally
• Gives clients/customers reassurance whilst enabling members to keep up-to-date
• Provides networking opportunities
• Includes further training and link to academia
• All classed as Continuing Professional Development (CPD)
Summary
Miklas offered to try and answer any questions which may be put forward, but also indicated those individuals requiring more information may be advised to visit www.iema.net IEMA Scotland Central Call +44 (0)1522 540069 Miklas Scholz m.scholz@ed.ac.uk
IEMA , St Nicholas House, 70 Newport, Lincoln LN1 3DP
6. Guest Speaker:
Judith Hackitt CBE, HSC Chair
Health & Safety in the 21st Century – a Question of balance
Introduction
The chair then introduced the main speaker by way of providing a “Welcome to 2008” whilst also relating to the activities of the Branch during the past year.
Welcome to 2008
· Edinburgh Branch first meeting 20 years ago in 1988 - 22 members in attendance;
· 2007 Branch meetings average attendance 55 members;
· Busiest meeting in January – Professor Frank Wright ‘Is HSWA still relevant in the 21st Century?’ – an amazing 73 members!.
2007 – a guid year
· Professional lectures: road safety; electricity; fire; ‘Secret Life’ of an EHO; behavioural safety; influencing attitudes; asbestos; construction & design;
· District regularly attracting 20+ members to meetings;
· Site Visits – Surgeons Hall & Risk Factory.
New ideas, stronger relationships
· New ‘10 minute talks’: 8/9 meetings - members sharing ideas & challenges;
· IOSH members survey:
· 33.7% visit Branch meetings more than 3 x p.a.;
· Branch meetings, minutes & seminars very useful;
· Opportunities to meet and share ideas;
· 47.4% believe Branch is innovative and forward-looking;
· What can we do to further improve?.
Positive changes …
· Relationships with REHIS, IEMA – & HSE;
· IOSH Research & Development Fund – sponsorship of Risk Factory workbook;
· 4 new members join our Branch Executive Committee - and meetings moved venue;
· Branch review Working party – radical changes to support members needs.
A New Year for IOSH Edinburgh
· January – Judith Hackitt CBE
· February – John Watt, Procurator Fiscal
· March – Stewart Campbell, HSE Director and Dr Billy Hare, Glasgow University
A world of work which is safe, healthy and sustainable
· 241 killed; 140,000 injured; 36 million days lost (1.5 days for every worker in the UK);
Challenge for us as members to:
· ensure that people are at the heart of health & safety;
· definitive voice for health & safety at work;
· champion pragmatic, sensible risk management;
· challenge negative perceptions …
“Dedicated people whose main aim in their working life is to ensure that their colleagues go home alive and safe at the end of the working day”
Judith then took the floor and thanked the Chair for the build up he had given her and said that she hoped that in taking on the challenging request for a ‘provocative and informative’ talk originally made to her predecessor Sir Bill Callaghan and demonstrate both continuity and evolution from the HSC/E agenda under Bill’s direction and certainly hoped that she would be able to shed the non-complementary titles she had been labled with title or job label of – “Chief Nanny” & “Head of the H&S Taliban”. Judith then stated that perhaps it would be beneficial for the members if they had in insight into who she was and some of the background she was coming from, so she then indicated the following:-
· She originally trained as a chemical engineer gaining her degree in the 70’s so when Flixborough happened it had a major effect on her gaining the belief that her career and H&S were heavily interlinked.
· She had spent time working for ESSO & EXON as chemical and process engineers, then as a Risk Manager for an animal feedstuffs manufacturer.
· In late 1990 she went to the Chemical Industry Association and to her daughter’s delight she was able to say her mother was the DG of the CIA, a post she held for 5 years.
· The past 2 years she has been in Brussels again within the chemical industry
· She took on the post of Chair of the HSC in October of 2007
HASAWA
There was no doubt in the speaker’s mind that the Act was still relevant and it was all about getting the balance right and it is now more than 30 years on from the Robens report which culminated in the 1974 Health and Safety at Work etc Act and the establishment of the Commission and Executive, but perhaps we need to remind ourselves on what we needed to do.
Robens proposals were:
- to recognise the pace of change
- to do away with rigid, old fashioned prescriptive solutions
- to bring in a broader and more generic goal-setting non prescriptive approach based upon the principle that ‘those who create the risk are best placed to manage it’.
Although the industries have changed as have the associated risks, proportionate, targetted, risk-based approach built on consultation and engagement is as relevant today as it was 30 years ago
Have we got it right?
There is a great deal of so-called evidence that sometimes gives us cause to question ourselves as to whether we’ve got it right and it provides ammunition for others to make the case that health and safety is out of control. We’ve been accused of banning Christmas decorations and conkers, small businesses claim their businesses are bogged down by red tape - much of which is health and safety - even our emergency services are making claims that health and safety is getting in the way of them doing their jobs.
Health and safety practitioners tend to be passionate about what they do. We believe that people have a right to be safe and healthy in their workplace – no matter what size the company, whether they are employees or contractors, what sector they work in or any other factor. We also believe that most, if not all, accidents are preventable.
When we look at the safety statistics of 241 workers killed; more than 140,000 suffering serious injury and 2.2 million suffering work related illness, we know that our task is far from complete - in fact it never will be. Other statistics tell us that our efforts save more than 200 lives every year and stop around 15,000 serious injuries but whilst she goes home every night after work, knowing that there are 400 people who will not go home because they are in hospital as a result of serious injuries caused at work that day, she knows we still have a real purpose and a huge challenge in achieving it.
Regaining the middle ground
The speaker’s belief is that it is only by regaining the middle - commonsense - ground and putting some balance back that we will succeed.
First, we need to remind people that HSWA and indeed the H&S professional’s role today is not to eliminate all risk. The truth is that we continue to enable a lot of high risk activities to take place by making people aware, helping them to manage the risk where that can be done and then getting on with the job but we need to examine whether our methods really help - or hinder - the process.
HSE’s own recent work on better regulation and simplification in particular has been hugely important. Risk assessment has become a bureaucratic nightmare for many - dozens of pages of box ticking even for simple, repetitive tasks. HSE have now published more than 20 examples of sample risk assessments showing what is required and what is “fit for purpose”. Risk assessments should not be seen as a paperwork eercise and the most effective are often 1 or 2 pages and generic ones should be utilised more frequently
Our passion for health and safety is not shared by others and if we burden them with bureaucracy we are failing to show them that health and safety go hand in hand with getting the job done and in fact make all workplaces more productive and effective - not less.
The balance of power, ownership and leadership for health and safety.
No organisation ever achieved total quality management simply by appointing a quality manager and yet people do still believe that you can ‘do’ health and safety by appointing someone and making them responsible.
The health and safety manager or board director has an important role to play but that role is about facilitation, winning hearts and minds, making people aware of their own responsibilities, providing tools to help them. It is not and never should be about taking responsibility or accountability away from others.
It is a common and dangerous misconception that HSE control safety in all workplaces – we could never do that even if we had 10 times the resources we have today and what’s more we shouldn’t and equally it is wrong for the company H&S manager to shoulder all of the responsibility for H&S in his/her organisation.
The speaker indicated she did not want to devalue the importance of organisations having competent health and safety professionals, but felt the competences required go way beyond knowledge of the law and ability to conduct risk assessments. Health and safety professionals must be competent in motivating and inspiring others, they must be extremely good communicators and the ultimate measure of their success should be that everyone else in their organisation takes leadership and responsibility for health and safety – doing themselves out of a job.
Think laterally and collaboratively
The balance of employment has shifted from large employers to small, from manufacturing and heavy industry to services, the workforce is becoming increasingly diverse - increasing number of migrant workers, flexible working patterns, huge cultural diversity and more. All of these factors increase the complexity of our challenge and managing work-related health issues requires very different skills from traditional safety.
The speaker stated there is ever more to do and we can only hope to achieve it if we think laterally and collaboratively about how we share the tasks and in particular how we work in partnership with other organisations. As the world of work becomes ever more diverse, HSE cannot hope to be expert at everything and at the same time it seems obvious that smaller businesses will need more help and guidance and for that guidance to be more specific, relevant to them and user friendly.
In 2007 HSE worked closely with the IoD in producing new guidance on Directors’ Duties. IoD led in the production of the guidance which has been highly praised since its launch in October. One of its merits is that the guidance has been written by Directors, for Directors and therefore speaks to them in their language and whilst some people felt that more Regulation was necessary the HSC felt this was a better way to go. HSWA 1974 already places clear legal duties on Directors and prosecution under Section 37 of the Act is possible even though there have been relatively few cases in practice. The Commission took the decision that with the changes imminent in the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act, there was a real need to produce new more specific guidance for directors and to make it clear that the responsibility for delivery rests now with Directors.
The final question of balance
The decision to update the organisation and merge HSC and HSE into one body in 2008 when the Health and Safety Commission will disappear as an entity and the merged body will be known as the Health and Safety Executive with the Commission becoming the new non-Executive Board of the HSE.
The next step will be the laying of an Order under the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006 to effect the necessary amendments to the HSW Act and subject to the Parliamentary scrutiny process it is expected to implement the new governance arrangements in place by mid- 2008.
The speaker indicated that it is important that the modernizing changes should not affect the operation and believes that in the UK we have a world class regulatory framework which others seek to emulate, we have a performance in health and safety which we can be proud of but not complacent about but we must continue to adapt and change as the world we operate in changes but we must also hold on to what is good and sing its praises.
Her final comment was that she hoped that the members present share her commitment to keep health and safety at the heart of every agenda, which is where it belongs.
At this stage she took questions some of which were as follows:-
Q - Why not investing more in HSE Inspectors?
A = Recently negotiating for a 3 year funding / budget, which has been a very new process for her to adopt and the debate has been difficult revolving around the principle of = “what we do” and “what we are”. The mixture of enforcement and reactive actions is considered a balance of 60:40 - proactive: reactive, but for some sectors where the business is more risk committed we can afford to be that way whereas other sector just “don’t get it” and we need to undertake more enforcement. Judith would like to see the Inspectors taking more steps backward and letting the business do it pointing out that HSE don’t DO it.
Q – Could / should we put more H&S into the education system
A – If we had infinite resources yes, but currently there are too many calls on funds. Perhaps we need to provide more in the way of “moral support” as we do at Edinburgh Branch with such efforts as the Risk Factory.
Q – What does she see as the challenges over the next five years, pushing the process of change and adaptation?
A – We need to build the reputation, regaining the “brand” of H&S. We have relied on common sense in the past, but that doesn’t work, we need to show just what we are about.
Q – Does she believe the Workplace Health Connect etc will continue or decline?
A – The principles behind workplace connect are a good thing and she hopes to see it continue, but the actual continuance is more dependant on whether financial settlement can be acquired.
Q – The risk assessment concept is good but how do we get back to it & away from gobbledygook?
A – That is interesting as her (Judith’s) daughter is studying marine biology and is at a Scottish University to write a paper based thesis to do this, but she called her mother to ask if she actually needed to complete a risk assessment of about 10 pages of questions relating water safety etc which she had been given and Judith advised her if she felt it was irrelevant then to state the fact on the bottom of the questionnaire (but she then asked if she could add – her mother told her to write this). Risk assessments need to be undertaken but should not be over the top in their format and she reminded the members present of the “Good enough risk assessment examples” on the HSE web site.
Q – Would she comment more on what she sees in terms of “Partnerships” to further H&S and could that involve more input for IOSH?
A – Yes she did see the likelihood of more being created by partnerships as she had seen with the IoD creating guide lines for Directors. However she was concerned when he had seen statements from Emergency Services that they couldn’t get to do their jobs because of doing risk assessments, but she is hopeful that with further training and the adoption of “Dynamic Risk Assessments” a lot of this may be corrected.
R – This was then commented on by a member from the Fire Service who stated they had addressed undertaking Risk Assessments and were embracing a partnership with the HSE, but it did appear on some occasions as if the HSE appeared to be “out to get a prosecution” at all costs.
Q – Did she feel that “empowering” IOSH members may assist the HSC?
A – She had not considered this as an option, but felt it was more necessary to consider what the Regulator was there for –Vs- What the H&S Manager is there for and perhaps it would be more beneficial to consider what is covered by the HSE and what is covered by the Local Authority
Q – Should the Local Authority Inspector be getting more responsibility and a greater choice on what they do?
A – Yes and yes. There have already been some discussions on this topic and some progress has been made but there is more to do.
Q – Did Judith feel the Roben’s report was worth a re-read and did she feel that whilst the UK had been “ahead of the game” we were now trailing behind?
A – She felt that it was beneficial to go back and look again at what could be done and yes unfortunately we have lost the lead status in H&S in the European arena.
Q – Currently there is a lot of push in creating a partnership between the HSE & Local Authority & in creating a Competence framework, but did she realize the poor “health” of the HSE from the current very low level of moral?
A – Judith indicated that she was glad to note the honesty of the questioner and she had noted the comment and did agree that perhaps they may need to look to better “leadership” within the HSE rather than just “managers”.
Q – Could she explain sensible risk management re: the HSE Policy?
A – She recognized that a lot of businesses looked at “Risk Management” being associated with purchase of more insurance rather than being the pro-active activity that we all recognize. In terms of looking to a positive guide on how and when the HSE decide to prosecute or not, it has to be by consideration of several factors including – the severity of the incident; the level of responsibility attributable to individuals etc; was it in the public interest.
Q – What is her interpretation of the Corporate Killing Act and any possible exemption for the Crown?
A – The speaker indicated that she did not have sufficient knowledge of the Corporate Homicide Act to make comment, but she still felt that Section 37 of the Act was sufficient, but perhaps there needs to be more clarification on defining the “controlling mind” issue.
Q – Would it be possible to publish details of what had been considered to be good enough to prevent a prosecution where a fatal accident had occurred?
A – This would be difficult especially where a person had died as the relatives would normally be insistent on holding someone responsible and accountable but she did feel that perhaps there needs to be more consideration of how something may be possible to be made public to demonstrate this sort of detail.
Q – From statistics the fatal rates for construction is 3.7 per 100,000 and 8.1 for agriculture how is this being addressed by HSC?
A – Yes they are being discussed and looked at. The agricultural industry is particularly bad and perhaps the most difficult to tackle being made up of bug business operating via small farms. There has to be a long hard think to try and identify just what will work.
Q – Could she define the role of IOSH in H&S – should there be some regulation with respect to competence?
A – The role of IOSH is seen as being extreme importance and the HSC value highly the standard setting and competence standards defined through the work undertaken by IOSH. She also stated here that any comment previously about ensuring work is not “farmed out to the consultants” was not intended as a denigratory comment with respect to competent consultants.
Q – She had included in her presentation the use of “positive stats” – could she indicate how these were gained?
A – The details were provided by the Statistic Office and she did not have any indication of how they were derived or verified, but as they came from such a reliable source she felt happy using them despite not knowing how they were obtained.
Q – Did she feel Section 37 was sufficient in ensuring directors were removed from post?
A – Agreed that using the powers of banning a person from holding the post of director was very powerful and should perhaps be used more than it has been so far.
Q` - The statistic which were released in November showed we were perhaps not on track to meet the targets which have been set – does she feel HSE should not be measured by these statistics?
A – We need to be clearer on what we must do. The revitalization focused on OH as well as Safety and the HSC has a role to play in creation of a healthy place of work, but we do not have a place in terms of treatment and rehabilitation
Q`- Would she perhaps define her vision and objectives?
A – To correct and modify the current reputation and devaluation of the H&S Brand. She gets very cross with people rubbish H&S - she would love to be on a platform facing Jeremy Clarkson. She wants people in her organisation to be proud.
Q – Could she comment on what she takes as competence for their role?
A – Difficult to make a true and definitive definition, but from a personal view point she see the H&S being an expert in his/her own field, but despite being expert they are not precious – they are more than willing to share their expertise.
7. Closing details
Dates of next meetings
· Forth & Tay District: 7 February: David Stephens, HSE Inspector: HSE enforcement of stress management
· Edinburgh Branch: 14 February: Role of the Procurator Fiscal in HSE cases John Watt, LLB, Dip Forensic Medicine, Area Procurator Fiscal, Argyll & Clyde, Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service
Max Bancroft, MRSC, CMIOSH
Branch Secretary
Richard Lovering, CFIOSH
Branch Executive