IOSH EDINBURGH BRANCH

Sederunt:

H Pearson       P Graham       A Fowler          G Pearson       B Johnstone    C Bonser         C Medd

M Charms       S Forbes         I Holden           R Hodson        J Guilfoyle       A McLeod       G Millar

C Turnbull       D Forfar          R Weir             D Sinclair        R Cater           D Ansell           T Ambler

K Mccartmy    G Flett             A Dick             R McLean       D Millar            S Rougule       A Bell

C Cave            J Robertson    M Sturgeon     V Stewart        L Roberts        G Fraser          S Daly

J Brannigan     S Holland        S Page            G MacGregor A Grosin          D McGlade     K Drum

R Lovering      R Willey           T Murphy        J Fenton          M Watson        J Anderson      P Brown

A Chalmers     J Fisher           L Murray         B Davies         S Aitken          A Milne            E Park

A Diment         S Wilson          D Tamieson    J Reid              G Shearer       G Clark           P Gibson

S Girdwood     W Potts           B Ross                        C Lawson        S Boucher       S Waddell        N Holden

S Blythe          F Johnson       G Foggo          R Thompson   R Innes            G Ferguson     J Little

L Young           M Grimmer

Apologies:  Kevin Lloyd, Bob Cox, Max Bancroft, Scott McDonald, Bob Bertram, Russell Brown, A Sharman

1       Chair:

Liz Young took the Chair.

2       Minutes of previous meeting:  September 2008

Receipt

 Anyone not in receipt please email Secretary; pearson@mabbett.com

Accuracy

Proposed by – A Diment

Seconded by – G MacGregor

Matters arising

Vacancy – Chair of Local Authorities Group. Marion is retiring from the post. Anyone interested in this role please contact the Secretary.

Change of Venue for November Meeting – Merchiston Campus Rm A17 Lecture Room – parking is a problem so please use public transport where possible.

CONSTRUCTION GROUP - Interconstruct 2007 - H&S in a Multicultural Industry - Edinburgh Shereton Hotel 19th & 20th May 2009 - Main Hall Speakers & break-out sessions.

 Speakers - from UK (including Jim Skillin Prof Billy Hare & Iain Cameron) American Greek Danish Slovenian French Arabian Canadian

 Example of presentations - Multicultural Communication - Economical Immigrants - Managing Diversity & Cultures on a Demolition Site - Addressing Multicultural Worksite issues 

Site Visits:

3.1.1         Fire Service College 16 October 2008 at 13:30 (max 20 members)

Please bring "standard" PPE (i.e. hard hat, safety boots and high visibility jacket) due to some activities taking place on the day. Please email secretary to book a place. “Refreshments" at a hostelry or as previously suggested, the Gullane Superfry fish & chip/pizza shop.

3.1.2         The Roger Midson Challenge 2008 Friday 31 October starting at 13:00. 

Mini Grand Prix karting event in Falkirk.  £35 p/p.

Email your interest to ali_mcleod@btinternet.com

3.1.3         Question Time Event - 26 November 2008

What can we do to change negative perceptions of H&S? Is enforcement proportionate? Do we have sufficient legislation? All this and more.

Leading edge debate at the Scottish Parliament on 26 Nov

Join us for a glass of wine at 6.00pm,

Introductions from Director of HSE and IOSH President and debate 6.30pm .

Premier debate panel including:

Craig Connell QC                

Professor Frank Wright

David Watt, Chief Executive, Institute of Directors

Dr Bill Wilson, MSP

This is a strictly limited, ticketed event.  Please email Branches@iosh.co.uk

Last date for reservation is 19th November 2008.

Speaker: Roger Wyllie , Managing Director of ACS Physical Risk Control Ltd. - Asbestos in the 21st Century

Executive Member – Richard Lovering – introduced the speaker for the afternoon’s paper by stating the event was an International event, as he was an Englishman, introducing a Welshman to speak to a Scottish Branch of IOSH.

The speaker - Professor Roger Willey was born in the Rhondda Valley and had been educated at Swansea University prior to working in various countries prior to settling in Scotland and becoming the first personal professor at Glasgow Caledonian University. Whilst at Paisley Roger was associated with running NEBOSH courses and the first MSc Course in Scotland in Safety Management which was attended by HSE & LA Inspectors.

Roger’s Company carries out research, consultancy & training in most aspects of H S & E and with over 29 years of experience in asbestos measurement and management they have been involved in over 63,000 different asbestos related contracts, which has enabled Roger to work closely with the HSE in development of the New Asbestos Regulations and the related roll-out training to support them.

Introduction

The speaker first indicated that the content of the afternoon paper was normally associated with a 4 hour presentation, so he would perhaps have to skip over some of the detail which hopefully would be okay with the current audience.

He then stated that perhaps we should start off by looking at what asbestos is and why it is used. Asbestos is a family name given to the fibrous forms of a group of naturally occurring mineral silicates fibres found in a wide variety of areas. Locally he indicated that it was possible to go into the hills at the Rest & Be Thankful and see 1cm high veins of blue asbestos in the rock..

Why was it used ?

Basically asbestos is –

A good insulator against: Heat, electricity, noise, vibration.

Whilst being impervious to attack by:

             Acid, weather, or vermin

And yet it was cheap to produce and import due to the use of black slave labour in South Africa and Southern Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) from the 18^th century. Britain had the need for such a product due to the progress of the steam driven activities.

Following the destruction of many areas of Britain during the second world war, a lot of houses and public buildings had to be re-built and there was 10,000’s of tons of asbestos left over from the war effort .

Common locations in Public Sector Housing

Asbestos is not often seen as a problem in privately built houses or buildings but it is a significant problem in publicly funded housing stock buildings and as such therefore, it is a significant problem for Local Authorities and Housing Associations in particular for structures  built in 1960’s, 70’s and early 80’s.

Typically in such locations as –

•          Asbestos insulation – (lagging)

•          Asbestos insulating board – (Walls or ceilings)

•          Asbestos cement – (Flue pipes, roof covering)

•          Asbestos vinyl tiles – (Floor covering)

•          Textured coatings - (artex)

•          Asbestos rope

•          Asbestos gaskets

What are the risks ?

Inhalation of asbestos fibres can lead to:

  Asbestosis           - but note this is from a massive over exposure,

This is where there will probably be something in the order of 10 billion fibres present in the lungs compared with 60% of the population who will have something in the order of 100,000 fibres in the lung

Lung cancer

Mesothelioma       - this being from a “low level” of exposure

  Here the condition of having a latent period between 10 - 40 yrs, typically 25-35 yrs creates a false sense of security.

As the common and authorised use of asbestos was effectively banned in the 1980’s it may be expected that some 30yrs or so later (2010) would see the peak for fatalities from asbestos dropping substantially, but according to a Professor Peto the number of asbestos deaths will rapidly increase over the next decade and it could peak as high as 7500 p.a. (up from 2000 p.a.) which has been the virtually constant figure for the past decade or so.

There is no way of reducing the current figure of asbestos related fatalities @ 2000 p.a. as this level is the result of past exposure during the 1980’s, but we do need to focus on the ways of preventing an increase in the level due to exposure SINCE the banning of its use. From studies and research it has been found that the additional deaths occur NOT in the conventional groups who made use of asbestos e.g. heavy industry, ship building, boiler manufacture, etc. but in fact the majority of deaths occur primarily in tradesman within the service industries e.g. electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc. and the largest single group is “tradesmen working for L.A.’s”

How do we improve the risk level to tradesmen?

The speaker then showed his simple model for the reasons and hence the controls which are needed as - Roger’s Mesothelioma Cycle

Based on a typical job flow chart of =

            School (or other LA building) note a problem with the lights

            They advise Technical Services to get the job fixed

            Technical Services raise a Job Sheet & send an Electrician

            The Electrician works on the lights being exposed to asbestos & hence mesthelioma

From the original Asbestos Regulations whereby a lot of greedy contractors undertook a lot of surveys and produced Registers of asbestos presence in buildings, which was then incorrectly considered to be a Management System (but it isn’t) but it failed to provide any link from the records to the tradesmen who were potentially at risk.

The Regulations currently indicate a duty to manage asbestos (not to do a survey) and the speakers suggestion was that the typical job flow chart should be modified by inserting a break as follows:-

            School (or other LA building) note a problem with the lights

            They advise Technical Services to get the job fixed

BREAK HERE = Make a valued judgment – based on the detail of information in the Register

-          No asbestos =

o   Technical Services raise a Job Sheet & send an Electrician

o   The Electrician works on the lights without any risk of exposure to asbestos

-          Minor asbestos work ( less than 1 hours work)

o   Technical Services raise a Job Sheet & send an asbestos aware trained Electrician

o   The Electrician works on the lights with controlled risk of exposure to asbestos by use suitable respirator, Type H vacuum & an asbestos suit

-          Major asbestos work more than 1 hour duration

o   Technical Services raise a Job Sheet & send a specialist Licensed Contractor and the necessary 14 day notice of asbestos working will be issued

o   Activity by licensed contractor to complete the task in agreed method – either removal of asbestos, sealing asbestos, or undertaking work as necessary

IT IS CRITICAL that information is given to tradesmen PRIOR to start of works.

Give as part of purchase order or works requisition order or, in larger jobs, as part of the tender documentation.

The speaker then reminded the members of basic legislation on asbestos works:

Asbestos Insulation (AI)                  licensed contractor, 14 days notification.

Asbestos insulating board (AIB)    > 1 hour in 7 days -  as per AI

                                                            < 1 hour in 7 days -  DIY with suitable precautions

Asbestos Cement (AC)                    DIY, any contractor, no notification, suitable precautions

Whilst legislation changes as per November 2006

AI                                lic.  contr, notification

AIB      >1hr                lic. contr., notification

AIB  <1hr                    any contr., NO notification

AC                   }           any contr., NO notification

AVT                }

Artex              }           some times, not always

Rope               }

Gaskets          }

What do I worry about ?

The speaker then highlighted those areas which were of major concern to him as :-

•          General lack of awareness of Regs amongst (small) contractors n.b. insurance

•          Misunderstanding of “common areas” duty on Housing Authorities - only remember Duty of Care (HASAWA)

•          Lack of awareness of major works (to be done by Licensed Contractors) and minor works (where the tradesmen should be trained in asbestos awareness).

•          Very Poor management systems.

•          Poor surveys (UKAS requirement)

5       Closing details

Please stay and have a coffee and meet your colleagues.

Dates of next meetings:

Edinburgh Branch:

•          13 November Branch meeting – venue change.     
Moving to Merchiston Campus due to Graduations - Rm A17 Lecture Room.           
Parking is a problem so please use public transport if possible.

•          26 November – Question Time debate – Scottish Parliament

Forth & Tay District: