I share many of your beliefs; your site was really interesting and informative. My view is that religion is like a social teddy bear. It comforts people during times of need. It explains deaths or unfortunate incidents. It gives people a sense of purpose. But as humanity matures, we are getting to old to use it for comfort. As we discover more and more, the eyeballs are falling out, and the stuffing is bursting through the seams. I personally think that there must be some form of supreme energy, something, anything, which is out there and might solve some of our mental dilemmas, and maybe tucked between the mishmash of stone-age legends and tribal religious rituals, and there is some truth in some of the ancient books from the middle east. I often find it aggravating that even though there is separation of church and state, I'm constantly being told by classmates, or even currency, that I'm some kind of lunatic, or dangerously stupid. I'm starting to rant, but its nice to know other people out there are more vocal about atheism, and the serious gaps and contradictions in religions, especially Christianity.
Hey Nathan (should I address you as Professor or something?) If you're not a professional atheologian you missed your "calling". For 2 hours I've been devouring atheist web sites and yours is the best I've found. I need this kind of relief often because I'm a college-educated blue-collar man (BA Religion-- another whole story in itself). I spend my days working with people who are into beer, wild women, bar brawling and of course Jesus and God and Bible-thumping. Strangely, I belong to Atheists for Jesus because I believe traces of a great ethical teacher can be sifted from the Gospel legends and I also believe he would roll over in his grave at things said and done in his name. Thanks & keep up the good work. SAM Jr.
My response will remain private. Ha Ha!
(Okay, I admit it. I lost the original text. I asked what was good and bad about the site.)
2nd Letter:
Dear Nathan: You're asking me for advice? My first impulse is to say keep up
the good work. One major thing I like about your site is that it's free of
gratuitous anti-religious hate-mongering. I've seen religion be a good and
positive thing in many people's lives (especially in mine, mill, and tenant
farm) and just plain nasty anti-religion turns me off. Some people still
need their gods and I don't want to hate them or their gods nor try to take
away their hope and system of social control. Remember Martin Luther King Jr.
was a Baptist preacher and many of the masses who made Labor reform and Civil
Rights happen were church folks. Again, one thing (among others) I like about
your site is the absence of spite and malice. I also like the funnies you
toss in (Beetlemania was a favorite). I have to get up earlier than usual, so I'll call it a night for now. Keep up the GOOD work. I'll be back. SAM Jr.
Content Slightly Edited For Spelling and Grammar--NE
Hi Nathan, I just got done reading through your web page. I was very impressed and found it extremely well done. Thanks. I too am an atheist. I'm 24 and have just recently been saved from Christ-insanity. I guess it's better late than never. I agree with you that we don't "choose" to be atheists. After hours of debating, reading books and listening to other testimonies, I could no longer ignore the absurdities of the Bible and "God". I didn't believe anymore. I don't choose not to believe in God any more than I choose not to believe in Santa. The first month was extremely difficult for me, since I felt like a big part of my life had been ripped out of me. It was like something died. I wasn't really sure how to feel. I was confused, angry, and sad. It was a tough time. I felt angry at myself for believing in that bullshit for so long, but was even more pissed off at my parents for sending me to a private Christian school at the age of 6 all the way up to my graduation. I felt cheated and very bitter. Even though I believed in God, and heaven and hell, I was still not a Fundy. I still drank, cursed, and partied with a lot of my close friends at my school. I believe we partied harder than all of the other public schools in our area. Probably a result of pent up frustration I guess. I always felt guilty for everything. I was always afraid of Hell, so my beliefs were strictly driven out of fear. I knew that I had to have a relationship with God, but I could never understand just how I was to love and have a personal relationship with a god that I didn't even know. I had never heard, seen or touched this god, but I was supposed to love him? That always bothered me. One day I stumbled on to a site called www.skepticsannotatedbible.com. That really opened my eyes to what the bible was really about and that drove me to read the bible for myself for the first time. After reading the bible, I was incredibly skeptical. That was all I needed. I continued to explore more web sites and read more books, just to strengthen my belief (atheism) and educate myself. I have found that my life has been more fulfilling and I am happier now than I have ever been. I don't feel guilty for petty things; I have so much more appreciation for my life as well as others. I feel that I have to go after what I want instead of sitting on my ass and waiting for "God" I have a whole new outlook on life and I make the best of it. When I hurt somebody, I make sure I make it right with that person. I don't cop-out and say, "Well, I'm forgiven, so you should forgive me." What a crock of shit. I hate that!! I have been more hurt by Christian people than anybody. My little brother is a Fundy. It makes me sick. He's a senior in high school and he is constantly involved in his church and the youth group. I can't even have a conversation with him about anything without him bringing up religion. Oh well. I just wanted to say thanks for your work on this site. I appreciate it. I have noticed that atheism isn't a very popular stance, so I don't usually tell people what I believe, unless they try to shove their beliefs down my throat. I only know of one other atheist, so I fell pretty alone right now, but I'm sure there are more out there than I realize. I have read The Case against God by George Smith and I just got The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. What other good books would recommend for me? Joe
My Response:
Dear Joe,
I thank you for your letter, which will be posted on my (2nd) Feedback page. And thank you for the deconversion story...if I receive a couple more I may create a whole page for them.
As to the books, I am no expert on atheist writings, but I can make some suggestions. I found Dan Barker's book, Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist very interesting. You can read some excerpts at the Freedom from Religion Foundation. I think you can read three or four chapters.
It is my understanding that Dawkins's The Blind Watchmaker is an excellent analysis of godless evolutionary biology and cosmology, which you will need to brush up on if you find yourself with Fundies frequently. I have not gotten around to reading it myself, but it gets high marks from just about everyone.
Finally, I would suggest you switch gears and read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. If you can get through that book and spot its holes, then you will almost certainly remain an atheist for the rest of your life. Besides, Christians love to tout it, and it's fun to say, "Yes, as a matter of fact I have read it, and let me tell you what's wrong with it..."
Warmest regards,
Nathan Estle
2nd Letter:
Yeah, go ahead and post my story. Sorry it was so brief, but there really wasn't much too it. I just got educated. Thanks for the book recommendations. I'll definitely check those out. Take care. I'll keep checking out your site from time to time for new updates. Joe
3rd Letter/Update (02-06-02)
Hi Nathan,
The last time I wrote you was last August and I just thought I
would give you a little update. I remain an atheist. I WAS a "fledging
atheist" when I first wrote you and really would jump from atheist to
agnostic quite a bit. I can say now, that after the Sept 11, tragedy, I am
convinced that there is no god. I won't make the claim, "there is no
god"
because I dont claim to have absolute knowledge, so I guess I will say that
I am 99.9% convinced. Just like I wont claim that there are no pinball
machines on Jupiter, even though I can put the probability close to zero.
I am convinced that there is nothing watching over us and there is
nothing protecting us. I know that people can pray and pray until the cows
come home, but nothing gets done until the human being does it. Theist are
the ones who make that claim. They claim that there is a god. I ask them to
prove it, and of course they can't. They have no proof, and they know it, so
they say "Well, you just have to have faith." Bullshit. All faith is,
is
wishful thinking. That's it. Then they say, "What if you're wrong?" Is
that
the best they can do? Is that all they have? What if I'm wrong? What if they
are wrong? There are close to 12,000 religions out there, and any one of
them can easily say the same thing. Anybody can say "What if you're
wrong?"
They make it sound like it's a lottery ticket where you either win or
you lose. If faith is valid, then anything is possible. Anything. If faith
is valid, then all religions must be right! I am not going to live my life
on blind faith and "what ifs". I will live my life on logic, reason
and
facts. I was amazed how so many people went on the prayer bandwagon after
9/11 and you constantly heard people say "God bless America." Yeah,
gawd
sure did bless America didn't he? I couldn't believe what I was hearing! Do
these people think!!!??? Where was their god? Where was he/she/it?? I didn't
see it. What about all the people who were praying on those jets before they
hit, what about the people in the WTC who were praying, what about the
people who burned alive and jumped out of the building to fall to their
deaths? Isn't it obvious by now???!!! How could anybody believe that there is
some invisible, magical entity that loves us and protects us? All I can say is that I am convinced. I am a positive atheist. Period. There's no doubt in
my mind. I will quote George Carlin, "If there is a god, if there really
is,
he's either incompetent, or he doesnt give a shit." Either way, it really
doesnt matter does it?
Joe
My Response:
Dear Joe,
You have echoed some of my sentiments. But, looking back, I can't say that the whole WTC thing got me thinking in spiritual terms. Maybe it has been so long since I was involved in religion that I cannot think in that way anymore, as either proof or disproof. I can say with some confidence that all the prayers before and after had no effect whatsoever, except, of course, as part of the ubiquitous placebo effect. And who is to say that they weren't cancelled out by Muslim prayers for destruction and pain? Maybe the All-Knowing Man in the sky just takes a vote...
I have been in a bit of transitional period of late myself, and have refined my stance a bit. I will not say there are no gods or goddesses, but I will say that I see absolutely no evidence of such things. I will also say that gods with incoherent or contradictory properties applied to them (e.g. the Christian god) do not exist. So: 1. Gods in general, not sure but skeptical. 2. Specific gods, not possible.
To use your example: I can't say there are no pinball machines out in space. But I can say there are none on Jupiter, because a gaseous planet like Jupiter cannot support an object "on" its gas surface. Contradictory.
Anyway, that is just another in a long line of modifications and clarifications (for myself and others) of my opinions. I would seem you do the same.
What is religion? What is religion to you to be more exact.
-Kintz
2nd Letter:
When you were talking about the ten commandments you failed to mention the ten commandments are not in chapter 20 in Exodus but are in chapter 34.
Chapter 34 verses 17 through 28 are the real ten commandments, it is also the only place in the bible were they say these are the ten commandments.
Here they are in the King James version:
1.You shall not make cast idols.
2.You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib, for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.
3.All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male livestock, the firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck.
4. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem.
5.No one shall appear before me empty-handed.
6.Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in plowing time and in harvest time you shall rest. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year.
7.Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, and enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.
8.You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the sacrifice of the festival of the Passover shall not be left until the morning.
9.The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God.
10.You shall not boil a child in its mother's milk.
Note: The last one actually says "a young goat", not "a child" (at least in the NIV).
My Response:
Dear Stephen,
Thank you for the Real Ten Commandments.
As to your question about religion, I personally think of religion as the organized practice of some set of beliefs, with rules and structure. Caveat: I only apply this definition to metaphysical or supernatural beliefs, be it Jesus, the universal "energy", or cow worship.
sir, i came across ur site,its very use ful and informative.
iam working on a project on indian atheism i like to get info on a list of famous indian atheists it would be of great help if u could send some info or links on this subject.
thank you
=====
Urs FriendlyAtheistpal :)There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds. -Anne Nicol Gaylor
My Response:
Dear AtheistPal:
I was unable to find a site specifically about celebrity Indian atheists, but I found some related subjects. I hope this helps.
Hello, my name is Amy. I've spent some time going over your web-site, and I find it to be very inspiring. I have had doubts for some time about religion in general, but was always afraid of these thought because I grow up in a Christian based society. I've finally come to accept that I don't agree with the Christian religious doctrine, or with the idea of any deity. I just wanted to let you know that I really liked reading your ideas, because it helps me to build on my own. I am as of now planning on writing an essay of some sort with my own personal thoughts on religion and its influence on society. I plan to write about the evolution of deities througout the world and the human psychological justifications for one. I loved your site, keep up the good work!
(snip-NE)
Thanks very much. Amy.
My Response:
Dear Amy,
I thank you for your kind words. If you like, I would be happy to post your essay on my page when it is completed.
Warmest Regards,
Nathan
2nd Letter:
Nathan,
I appreciate your offer to post my essay on religion. It may take a
while to be completed, as I have a lot I want to say in it and I want it
to be good. Thanks for replying to my message as well. I surely would
love to have my essay posted on your page when it is complete. I'll let
you know.
Congratulations on your website. I had been ever so slowly turning
from my faith for months (I was a southern baptist) before I ran up on your
site. I spent an entire night reading and re-reading your articles and that
finally tipped me over the edge and I truly realized that religion and the
idea of a Divine Creator is entirely ludicrous. It doesn't help that I live
in a community stocked with nothing but southern baptists and have to spend
my senior year in high school listening to the promotion of christianity (I
refuse to capitalize the word). I'm fed up with the preaching, I mean, it's
school for fuck's sake! I'm not supposed to be hearing any of this. I'm
going to give my teacher a warning to stop when I get to school tomorrow,
and if that doesn't work, I'm going to talk to my principal about it. And,
of course, if THAT doesn't work I'm going to bring a huge lawsuit down on
their heads. Sorry, I got off on a rant. Anyway, you have my thanks and
best wishes.
Thanks for your time,
Brandon
My Response:
Dear Brandon:
You have given me a wonderful gift. Yours is probably the nicest letter I
have ever received in my life. I am humbled, pleasantly surprised, and envigorated.
It never ceases to amaze me that people are actually reading the stuff I put out
there. I thank you very much. If there is anything I can do for you, let me know.
Hey - like your site. I have returned recently to the computing world (been away
nearly 10 years), & have been encouraged and pleased to find sites such as yours out
there on the web.
Currently engaged in a flame war (my first!) with Xtians on, of all places, the
'Literary Kicks' website www.litkicks.com which
covers the beat writers and all related issues - religion being one of these issues.
What can I say - these people shouldn't be allowed out on their own in case they hurt
themselves. Stunningly incoherent 'views' on the bible, the origins of the universe,
hell, and ... what they actually mean when they use the word 'god'. I find that they
demonstrate a blank refusal to think - not just about what I'm saying, but about what
they're saying.
I do find it entertaining - ambushing them on a site like this, when they're not
really expecting it - then baiting them - but their behaviour is kind of sad too. (I
don't know, maybe mine is as well.)
Feel free to check it all out (on Literary Kicks, I'm 'Seeker'), to send me any
advice you think would be helpful (some good buttons to push are always welcome) or
even to join in the debate. I realise you hardly need my invitation, but hey,
they're starting to gang up on me.
I don't know if u are updating
your feedback page anymore but I would just like to say your site
rocks sooooo much.
There are many complicated
philosophical arguments from theists about various crazy theories on your
feedback page... in my opininion such arguments are a waste of perfectly
good oxygen...
I wish instead that theists would just
accept that they are wrong... I believe many have realised that what was
hammered into them as children is patently rediculous and they are
simply in denial about it.
In the overwhelming majority of cases
religion is all about suffering and feeling bad for sins that you are supposed
to be born with... For me this is one of the worst things about theism and also
a convenient way for preachers to keep up the numbers by giving parents a guilt
trip and causing them to bring their kids into church against their will (who on
earth would rather go to church than watch sunday morning cartoons ^_^) and
force them to listen to their supersticious crap. Anyway, I think the minority
of people who have found religion a way 'back from the brink' are rather
pathetic for needing a 'security blankey' like religion to strengthen their
character...
hehe I know these probably wont count as
valid philosophical arguments in the eyes of your critics, but i dont care cos
they're wrong and i'm right ^_^
i've read your whole site now, and i find i've stereotyped my own kind. i am and always have been an athiest. i was brought to church and sunday school as a boy but the idea of a god has never held any water in my opinion.
i've developed a strong athiest viewpoint on the world as well as fairly strong left wing views, and assumed that all athiest's would follow the same path into liberalism. needless to say i was surprised to see that you support easy access to firearms. this has always seemed to be a very backwater grassroots conservative ideal to me. but having read your arguments for atheism i'd already come to respect you as a man of strong mind. all your views are logical and well thought out, appealing to the materialist in me.
im not a fickle man though, despite your proponence to american gun laws (which i find incomprehensible) i still think you're a very intelligent individual.
but i digress, the point im trying to make here is that my belief that there is a correlation between views on religion and political orientation have been completely shattered. in my mind athiesm has always seemed incompatable with conservatism.
then again, being a european living in canada our ideas of left and right are most likely very different. i suppose when one get's down to it you live in a society that sits far to the right compared to the one's i have lived in. american 'liberals' and canadian do indeed go down very different paths on many issues.
ive lost track now..
ah i guess ive made my point.
respectfully,
rich west, 16, canada.
My Response:
Dear Rich:
I originally mentioned my political views only to challenge the preconceptions of Conservative Christians, so this is a startling turn of events for me.
But for clarification, I am not exactly a conservative. I am a Libertarian, meaning I am for more freedom and less government at all times on all issues. Among my leftists positions is drug legalization, and also complete separation of church and state (naturally). On the right, I am more pro-gun than the NRA (spineless, in my opinion), and on left, I am more pro-liberty than the ACLU. (Hope you're familiar with American political groups.)
The right pays lip service to smaller government, but supports government control over vice crimes and the like. The left claims to support personal freedom, especially in the privacy of your own home, unless you want a revolver to protect your family or a toilet that isn't government-approved for the environment.
You are right when you say that the American political debate if farther right than most other nations. A compromise between Stalin and Lenin is still Communism, and a compromise between Republicans and Democrats in the U.S. is still slightly to the right. Just a little more money and freedom taken away.
Now I digress. I thank you for your letter; it was enlightening.
Sincerely,
Nathan Estle
2nd Letter:
Mr. Estle,
Before i say anything i'd just like to tell you that your website is largely
composed of, in my opinion, words to live by.
I'm curious as to your philosophy on life, assuming you prescribe to any
specific school of thought on the subject. I hope you haven't mentioned
this on your website somewhere and i've overlooked it.
You see, in my opinion; human consciousness is nothing more than an
unfortunate series of electrochemical reactions occuring in the brain. and
it follows to reason that, to some degree, human ideals and values are
meaningless. This is in line with the materialist outlook on life, where
the only truth is matter and matter's reactionary byproducts. Ruling out or
undermining any form of idealist of religious belief.
Now im very curious to know from what side of the philosophical fence
you form your arguments against religion. Because i must say they're quite
thorough.
I know you agree with basic human ideals and laws. As do i, (although
only because there isn't much logic in rape and murder etc. i might add.)
But i'd be intriguided to know whether you hold these ideals as self-proving
axioms like a humanist, or if you agree with morals and values from a more
objective standpoint.
Much appreciated. Forgive the longwinded nature of my email it's a
rather longwinded topic.
Respectfully,
Rich West, 16, Canada
My Response:
Dear Rich:
To be quite honest, I have never given much thought to the subject, but I will try to delineate my positions.
While there are some absolutes in the universe, they are only perceived through the the filter of human conceptualization. For example, Absolute Zero (-273.15 C) is an absolute threshold, where matter no longer contains any energy. This is a very real barrier in the universe, but it can only be described in terms of things we have conceptualized, like temperature and energy.
When it comes to morals and standards, I don't find any absolutes at all. Even heinous crimes are quite relative. To use your example of rape: If a society existed where rape was the method of choosing a wife, it would be every parent's dream for his daughter to be raped by a handsome, affluent man of some societal stature. It seems almost incomprehensible by our standards, but impossible?
Morals and standards are relative to the society, which is effective and practical. They are not actually self-proving or objective; they simply are.
My arguments against religion were not formed from any philosophical standpoint, other than simple practicality. Religions, to varying degrees, are internally incoherent. That was my stepping stone, as far as I can recall.
Just stumbled upon your site and found it to be rather interesting reading.
I have run into a few sites like yours in the past and it seems that most of
your arguments against belief in God grow out of what I would call the
"religions" of theism. In other words your beef isn't really with God but
with those who claim to know who he is and what he is all about. It's pretty
easy to find faults with all the different forms of man-made religion out
there. I spend a lot of time doing that myself on my site:
http://kbproweb.com/gel
My desire is to try and separate the religions of humanity from the reality
of God. It isn't an easy task because there is a lot of confusion and
misinformation about God out there, and I see that confusion coming through
in your arguments against the many religious concepts of God.
I will admit that seeking God in this fashion is an adventure which often
leaves me with more questions then answers. Still overall this road of truth
has led me to a greater, deeper, and more real faith then I ever had as
someone who just went with the popular "Christian" flow of things. There is
no doubt in my mind that God is real, I personally don't see atheism as a
rational, viable choice, the challenge I face is to see past all my
preconceived religious notions and discover who he really is and how to have
a for real relationship with him.
Anyway, just wanted give you some comments on your site and invite you to
check out mine. I would be especially interested in you comments on an
article that rebuts the Humanist Manifesto which challenges many atheistic
gripes against Christianity. You will see the link to the article displayed
on this page:
http://kbproweb.com/gel/framesets/frameset_religion.html
Regards,
Roy
My Response:
Dear Roy:
I am not a humanist, and am not particularly interested in their positions.
Hello! I stumbled upon your page from a link from the
Internet Infidels. Your site was just a random appearance on my computer,
but I read through your site and found it interesting. Anyway, I see
you've received alot of feedback on your website, I thought I would put in
my two cents as well. First of all I complement you on your well organized
site, and you definitely have no problem expressing yourself with the
strong opening "mocking the very concept of damnation since September of the
year 2000." But alas you know what comes next....
I disagree with your assertion that Christianity and religion are
absurd, ridiculous, or false. Your site and many other atheist sites, often
refer to Christianity and other religions as being ridiculous, harmful, or
false. But I'm not quite sure religion can be painted in a true and false
(or ridiculous) sense. I think that joining a particular religion,
including Christianity, is much like enjoying a beautiful poem or listening
to Mozart's 9th symphony--you may say that Mozart's music is repulsive or
too boring, but it would be foolish to refer to it as being inherently
"wrong or false." Even when we consider the trappings of Christianity--the
virgin birth, original sin, heaven, hell--these are all subjective terms and
concepts.
A wedding or funeral ceremony can be compared to religion, as they
revolve around tradition and ritual--something that some humans need for
proper expression. It would be silly to refer to a wedding ceremony as
untrue as it is to say a particular faith or religion is untrue. Faith in
a particular religion is often tantamount to a feeling of emotion such as
joy or happiness. It is hard to say that someone's feelings are somehow
"wrong." Try telling my girlfriend her feelings are somehow "wrong" and
you'll know what I mean. At best, we may question the motives of a
particular religion such as the money-hungry Jim Bakkers of the world, but
for me it's hard to say the tenant's in Christianity are somehow false or
wrong.
It is almost bad taste to ask of a biblical story, is it true? True,
you say, true? Of course it isn't true in any crude literal sense. Science
and religion are not competing for the same territory. They are about
different things. They are equally true, but in their different ways. I
used to consider myself as an atheist, until I began to think of God in the
terms of what's truly great in humanity--love, beauty, music, creativity,
even suffering.
So for me, it doesn't matter whether God exists or not or whether a
certain religion is "true" or not. That's not even in the equation. As I
said before it can be as inappropriate to say Keats's Ode to a Grecian Urn
is untrue as it is to say Christianity, Islam, Taoism are untrue. At best
we may question certain motives. If you want to know I think that all
religions are true to a point, if they work for a person. I know a few
Wiccans and even Satanists that will attest to this. If you ask a Satanist
does he believe Satanism to be true or not he will most likely consider the
point to be mute. Whether or not the actual beliefs of the religion are true
doesn't matter.
Maybe there is a God; Maybe there isn't a God. For you, living without a
belief in God works. For me, my belief in God stands not on truth or
non-truth, but upon non-empirical entities such as peace, love, joy and
happiness which is the very core of what is truly great about humanity.
Thank you for your time.
Brian DeCraene
St. Louis, Missouri
My Response:
Dear Brian:
I claim that the fundamental ideas behind Christianity et al. are false. A symphony expresses feelings or vague imagery. It does not assert an objective reality. I have never found symphonies to be pushy.
Religions make claims. Their old stories can be true or false. Their fundamental ideas about God and the universe can be true or false.
The comparison to weddings and funerals is accurate if we are talking about a social convention. But, to use the example of Ode to a Grecian Urn, most people don't just study and appreciate religions as they do poetry. They believe that one religion is true. That its claims about this reality are accurate.
That is what I contest. Beauty is truth, Keats might say. Not in the real world.
I'll not try to soften the message of Christ for you, and I am well aware of
any theological displacement you may have- But ask your self this, do you
believe in the Devil? People that claim not to believe in God, believe in
something- do you understand, you have to admit that choosing not to believe
renders the fact that there is something not to believe in. (GOD) No matter
how well versed you are in Bible and theology; history and science prove over
and over again the fact and authority of the Bible- like it or not. You are
claiming that you do not believe in God on the basis of what some call "
election" , God can not be a holy and just God if He forced His slavation on
you. Accepting Christ must be a personal choice. " For God so loved the
world" you are part of this world, God loves you. The Bible also says ' That
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (YOU)
Read this with the same mind that you accepted atheism.
F.A.I.T.H. is all you need.
F-forgiveness- In Him(Jesus) we have redemption, and in His blood the
FORGIVENESS of our sins. you just have to ask.
A- Salvation is avalible- "For God so loved you, that He gave his only son,
that you may have eternal life.
BUT- not automatic. Jesus said, "Not everyonr who says unto me Lord, Lord
will enter the kingdom of God ( these are the people who reject God)
I- Impossible- it is impossible for one sin to enter heaven.
how then can sinnful man enter heaven, where god allows no sin-
T- TURN- or repent( in Biblical terms) means to go the oppisite way of your
sins
the Bible says that "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
H- Heaven, the reward of salvation; heaven is here,(i have come to give you
life and to give it to you more and more) and hereafter, ( "I (Jesus) have
gone to prepare a place for you) -HEAVEN.
Hard to grasp I know, but if you would like to talk about it i would welcome
you to contact me. I will not cease in prayer for you, God bless you.
Pastor Wayne Harrell,D.Min,PhD
My Response:
Dear Dr. Harrell:
I do not find Christianity particularly hard to grasp. As an ex-tian (Internet parlance) I used to think I had real insider's view of it all. But over time, that has faded. I can honestly say now that I don't get Christianity anymore, and it becomes increasingly ludicrous with each passing day and examination. I am agonizingly familiar however, with the sales pitch.
To answer the rhetorical question, no, I do not believe in the Judeo-Christian devil or any other. That puts me in good company, with people like Moses and Isaiah, as I am sure the good Reverend is aware.
And, the implication that I believe in something appears to be a modified version of the "atheism is a religion" sermon that is common online. I have explored my beliefs (or lack thereof) somewhat on my page at http://www.oocities.org/estle46224/faith.html .
While I formerly professed what is known as "positive" or "strong" atheism, I may yet switch to "negative" or "weak" atheism. That is a very personal issue, so I'll leave it at that.
Respectfully yours,
Nathan Estle
2nd Letter:
Just so you know both Moses and Isaiah believed in devils and demons. But-
nonetheless, you may keep your opinions, I differ from most in that I am not
going to force my belief on you you either believe or you don't. While you
wager with yours, I hope you are right, but I'll stay on the safe (eternal)
side of God, and faith. I can site you Biblical passages to show you that
Moses and Isaiah believed in both demons, and devils, as well passages that
site the absent belief in a true God. I will not be those who continue a
apologetical dispute over faith, and of God. There will be a day when we will
all know the truth, about all of these theological questions. We can however
compare opinions, as long as it does not become a "holy war"! Until your
response- have a great day.
Wayne
Despite the closing, I received the impression that perhaps the good Reverend Harrell
did not wish to continue this dialogue any further. Besides, what was I to respond to? My
position is spelled out on this site. But, curious as I am, I would
welcome citations from anyone showing that Moses and/or Isaiah believed in the Devil.
I'm curious, can you give me some proof that we evolved from a
primate "millions" of years ago? I need to know exactly how that took place,
and if we evolved why aren't apes and monkeys evolving into to
(sic) bleeding
heart liberals today. Please enlighten me.
My Response:
Dear Bill,
I am not sure what you are asking for, though I am quite sure that whatever I
might offer would be insufficient. If you have a more specific question, as
opposed to one that couldn't be answered without sending you volumes of text,
then I will do my best to respond.
And by the way, I doubt apes of today would evolve toward human liberals. That
would be a step down in intelligence. You know that old joke: What do you
get when you cross a liberal with an ape? A retarded ape.
"I appreciate the response. While I tend to be a skeptic on a great many issues, I do not dispute that prayer has some beneficial effects."
"Regular church-goers live longer on average, but this is most likely due to the restrained lifestyle. People engaged in serious prayer do, though, recover more quickly from serious injuries and/or surgeries. I hypothesize that the same kind of mental exercises mentioned above would get the same results."
I suppose I should let you know that I am also an atheist. However, as to these assumptions of the efficacy of prayer. I find that we have been so inundated with the *scientific* studies of the efficacy of prayer and the *positive* results that even we atheists accept as fact that prayer is good for the individual who believes.
I would like to point out a few fallacies regarding this assumption. First, Koenig (one who has released many of these studies promoting the efficacy of prayer) is heavily involved with the John Templeton Foundation. Their mission statement:
"The John Templeton Foundation was established in 1987 by renowned international investor, Sir John Templeton, to encourage a fresh appreciation of the critical importance---for all peoples and cultures---of the moral and spiritual dimensions of life. The Templeton Foundation seeks to act as a critical catalyst for progress, especially by supporting studies which demonstrate the benefits of an open, humble and progressive approach to learning in these areas. It is the Foundation's purpose to stimulate a high standard of excellence in scholarly understanding which can serve to encourage further worldwide explorations of the moral and spiritual dimensions of the Universe and of the human potential within its ultimate purpose. To this end, the Foundation believes that such efforts can have enduring significance for helping make the world's future more peaceful, more loving, more gracious, and that this perspective can help people to become more thankful for and open to the wonderful opportunities that the gift of life makes possible. Through its programs, the Foundation seeks to encourage the world to catch the vision of the tremendous possibilities for spiritual progress in an open and humble approach to life; encourage institutions of learning to incorporate training towards excellence in character in their efforts to prepare the next generation for service; to encourage growth in appreciating the potential of free societies; and to promote the understanding of the significant responsibilities associated with freedom in its several aspects, moral, spiritual, political and economic.
The Foundation currently funds more than 150 projects, studies, award programs and publications worldwide."
A skeptical view of the Templeton Foundation and its funding of scientific investigation finds several major flaws in their methodology. First, we find that many of the scientists start from the presumption that god or the Universality of spirituality requires the efficacy of prayer. The Templeton Foundations primary goal is to join religion with science, or attempt to prove the reality of the spiritual life (read god if you like) and its scientific proof. The Templeton Foundation awards $1,000,000 US to scietists who work toward this end.
Koenig is one who has conducted studies into the efficacy of prayer with healing those who suffer from heart disease. Unfortunately, no major peer review has been conducted regarding his studies as he has failed to submit these studies to Nature or the AMA. A cursory glance at his data show that 51% of those in his study were Southern Baptist white males and 22% were Southern Baptist black males. Now he attempts to show that 47% of the total recovered from their bouts with heart problems. We have no indication of what those heart problems were or their severity. However, that is just the tip of the problem with his data. That 47% recovery rate is show next to that 51% of white male Southern Baptists. But, to show that 47% of the total in the study recovered you must look at the 22% of black male Southern Baptists and add it to the 51%, giving you 63% of the total number in the study Southern Baptists males. This is siginificant because it reduces the overall recovery rate for Southern Baptists. I do not at this time have a link to the information - I have been unable to locate the data on the web. (My numbers are approximate - I am at work and am pulling these figures from memory.)
Do you see the problem with the data from which he operates. Additionally, there are other studies he's done where it appears the data has been padded to guarantee positive results, (as was done here).
The problem lies in that this has such a common acceptance, even among atheists, that it goes unquestioned. We atheists should not accept this as common place and should question even this informaiton. There are studies that have been done recently discounting the efficacy of prayer and the benifits of belief in god. It has been found that belief in god can be detrimental to a persons overall health. Here's how: you're ill and you begin to question, did I do enough?, will I burn in hell?, is there something else I could have done to guarantee entrance to heaven? These are additional stresses the mind does not need while attempting to recover. It's also posited that some may simply give up trying when a belief is strong, the call to go to heaven and stop suffering overwhelms the mind.
The key is a positive support system for recovery from illness. Whether this is a church group or a strong group of friends, there is no belief in god in the equation.
Regards,
Trish
Skeptic Friends
Letter 2:
It seems that in composing my first letter to you I failed to mention something.
I trully enjoyed your site and reading well thought out rational arguments against xianity and organized religion in general.
Regards,
Trish
My Response:
Dear Trish,
I don't think there is any disagreement. What I was trying to say, in a very long-winded manner, is that the Placebo Effect can account for any supposed "scientific proof" of the usefulness of prayer. Now were there a double-blind study (and I believe there is just such a study ongoing at Duke) showing the same results, then my explanation would be no good.
I won't hold my breath. Thank you for the note.
Nathan
Letter 3:
Nathan,
That would then negate one of my arguments, should this study show validity in prayer. Thanks for the information regarding the study at Duke. That is one of which I was unaware.