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Author Topic:   Anyone understand Restless?
The_Watcher
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posted 28-05-2000 09:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The_Watcher   Click Here to Email The_Watcher     Edit/Delete Message  14751634   Reply w/Quote
Please someone post an explanation for Restless. Small bits I understood, but the whole ep just left me scratching my head.

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KevMeister
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posted 28-05-2000 09:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KevMeister   Click Here to Email KevMeister     Edit/Delete Message  57471990   Reply w/Quote
iunderstood that it was the first slayer but i didnt get nuffin else.
any one else think that ep was like crap?

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The_Watcher
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posted 28-05-2000 09:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The_Watcher   Click Here to Email The_Watcher     Edit/Delete Message  14751634   Reply w/Quote
totally! Restless is the worst ep of Season 4, which is the worst season of Buffy. Do we have a contender here for worst ep ever of Buffy?

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simpleton
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posted 28-05-2000 09:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for simpleton   Click Here to Email simpleton     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I'll say that restless is up there with my favorite eps of Bufty of all time, quality episode...

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yally
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posted 28-05-2000 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for yally   Click Here to Email yally     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I liked it and I think I understood most of it (I think ) except for the cheese man and the bit with Spike and Giles on a swing.

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The_Watcher
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posted 28-05-2000 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The_Watcher   Click Here to Email The_Watcher     Edit/Delete Message  14751634   Reply w/Quote
You are just playin devils advocate here arent you? Please tell me you are?

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simpleton
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posted 28-05-2000 09:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for simpleton   Click Here to Email simpleton     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The_Watcher:
You are just playin devils advocate here arent you? Please tell me you are?

No i honestly loed this episode, it was a great ending to the season and a start to next year

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julz
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posted 28-05-2000 09:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for julz   Click Here to Email julz     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Well I can tell you the plot of the ep, basically paraphrasing Giles, when they did the whole magic thing to defeat adam last ep, they summoned the force of previous slayers; the first slayer took this as an affront and doesn't like the fact that buffy has a life exterior to slaying and so came in the dreams.

But that's not what I think the ep was *about*... That ep was about asking where everyone was and where they were going, about questioning the current situation and the scoobies relationship. It was an excuse to get inside the heads of these characters we've been watching from the outside for four years.

You see the new confident willow at the play not knowing her lines -- remember nightmares? Stage fright. Remember Puppet Show? She ran off the stage.

Then when she was at the front of the class and buffy ripped her new "cool" clothes off so we see that willow still maybe thinks of the 'geek' still inside. And wonders if everyone is laughing behind her back - still insecure.

Xander also, keeps being asked "where are you going?" - where is his _life_ going, we see soldiers - what Spike suggested he would have to go into because he couldn't do anything else. Then the ice-cream van, that's his latest job and he's trying to sound confident. The buffy's-mon, Tara&Willow things: we're reminded of the teenager from a whileback "linoleum turns me on". The foreign language, he feels cut off because everyone else is going to college, when he goes into Giles house the rest of the scooby gang are discussing things with their back to him, he isn't included.

etc. etc. I'll post more later when my brain can sift it -- I got *no* sleep last night and I actually nodded off during Third Rock and just woke in time for Buffy.

Maybe other people can fill in the other subtexts.

The cheese-guy, now there's a puzzle Ill leave to you guys

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Berkley
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posted 28-05-2000 09:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Berkley   Click Here to Email Berkley     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I can see a lot of people watching this ep again purely to try and understand it. I for one was totally confused by it.

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Ed
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posted 28-05-2000 09:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ed   Click Here to Email Ed     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Well I did, mostly. I don't think anybody will understand the cheese.
A really good episode.

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The_Watcher
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posted 28-05-2000 09:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The_Watcher   Click Here to Email The_Watcher     Edit/Delete Message  14751634   Reply w/Quote
One thing that did interest me about the ep was Giles and Spike on the swings in Xander's dream. Did anyone else get the impression Xander wanted to be a watcher?

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C
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posted 28-05-2000 09:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for C   Click Here to Email C     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
My two cents...

It was just the repurcussions of the channeling spell they did in Primevil. The spell combined the talents of the spell casters, and allowed Buffy to (briefly) directly channel the power of the Slayer rather than simply being one aspect/avatar/incarnation of it. Slayer Mk 1 (Buffy the Neanderthal Slayer?) was how the uncontrolled, raw, primordial side of the power manifested itself to them. Once one of them (Buffy, or nearly Giles) got the raw side under control it was no longer a threat.

In the mean time the primordial aspect was loose in their brains, bringing to the surface the feelings, thoughts, and aspects of their personality which they usually ignore or supress.

C

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C
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posted 28-05-2000 09:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for C   Click Here to Email C     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
8 postings in 2 minutes - wow!

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julz
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posted 28-05-2000 09:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for julz   Click Here to Email julz     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Combine C's answer with mine and I think you have a reasonably complete basic analysis... but that episode was full of so much subtext Im sure we could be reading into it for months... until S5 for example.

Thanks Joss, Really

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buffy boreanaz
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posted 28-05-2000 09:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for buffy boreanaz     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I read somewere that buffy likes chesse secretly maybe its something to do with that i dont know

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Keenangel
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posted 28-05-2000 09:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Keenangel     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
This was a strange one!! and aren't dreams not really supposed to make much sense anyway? Mine don't!

It still had it's funny bits- Spike as a Watcher, did he look funny in tweed or what? and when he was posing for those photographs *lol* and Giles singing out his thoughts about what was possibly happening and Willow and Xander reading those books but still holding their lighters in the air!

Oh and the cheese guy wasn't supposed to mean anything, he was just there to confuse everything, as dreams like that have a habit of doing, and also because Joss thought it would be cool!.

Oh and did you recognise Adam without all of his yukky other demon-parts??

Interesting.

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Leababe16
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posted 28-05-2000 09:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Leababe16     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Well I saw this as not so much the season finale ( I thought of Friday's ep as that ) but a prologue to the first ep of S5. Anyone agree here? I mean, this is probably the first time the writing crew (B) know (/B) that there is gonna be a next season. ( touch wood ) I heard about 4 months or more back that buffy and angel had each been renewed for a further season.

Oh and the cheese thing? I think the moral of the story therre was never to eat cheese before you go to sleep, cos it only gives u nightmares. !!!!!

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C
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posted 28-05-2000 09:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for C   Click Here to Email C     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by buffy boreanaz:
I read somewere that buffy likes chesse secretly maybe its something to do with that i dont know

I don't remember the ep, but before he know's she's the slayer, Riley asks Willow about B and one of the things she says to him is that B likes cheese.

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angelus the demonic
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posted 28-05-2000 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for angelus the demonic   Click Here to Email angelus the demonic     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
That ep was so cool!Very confusing,but extremely cool.That guy with cheese gave me major wiggins.I'll have tto watch it again in the morning.I so can not wait till season five.January,january i tell you.How can i possibly wait till then?

Season five looks like it is going to be very interesting indeed!

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ASH
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posted 28-05-2000 09:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ASH   Click Here to Email ASH     Edit/Delete Message  n/a   Reply w/Quote

Wow !.

I`m still at the "Fire bad, tree pretty" stage.

It was kinda like when Homer was watching "Twin peaks " and he say`s "Brilliant. I have absoloutely no idea what that was all about "

Absolutely brilliant, Joss you`re a genius.It was like Buffy meets Twin peaks (complete with the red and black checked floor)

The little sister big brother( ?) stuff was really intruiging as was the idea of The Slayer as some kind of mythological entity, kind of like James O Barr`s Crow.

Riley as Cowboy was cool, and Synder as Marlon Brando was a real treat.This ranks right up there with Becoming and Graduation as one of the best ever.The only problem was it left so many unanswered questions in my mind until S5, which now looks like it can`t come soon enough.

Giles singing reduced me to gales of laughter and the glimpse of Tara`s powers was intruiging.I really liked Buffy`s character again and the whole Scooby gang were right back on form.

Xanders state of mind and his fears of stagnation was really moving without being overplayed.His character could be one to watch in S5.

This was so much better than fridays ep, restoring my faith in the whole Buffy mythos again.Just shows how good Joss is.In one episode he gives us more than he`s done in four series about the nature of Buffy`s powers.

Loved the guy with the cheese.I can just see fanboys all over the globe trying to read something into that.

Basically, a real classic.

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Pikeman
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posted 28-05-2000 10:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pikeman   Click Here to Email Pikeman     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I didn't really have any problem understanding this ep, in fact I enjoyed the look into each of the gangs psyche's (especially Xander's ). I just felt that this ep didn't deserve to be the season climax. It seemed such a let down. If they were setting the scene for S5 then they were too subtle, it didn't give anything to whet the appetite nor did it round of S4 in any way. It seemed like this should have been ep 2 or 3 of S5. And why did they cut Willow and Tara's scene! Spoilsports. And they call us british repressed! I think I may have to cast a spell on my own now

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angelus the demonic
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posted 28-05-2000 10:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for angelus the demonic   Click Here to Email angelus the demonic     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
So many questions,not enough answers.I've got seven,yes SEVEN months untill season five and allready I'm dying with anticapation.Dear god it's so inhumane.How can they make me wait that long!

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Wicca Wiggins
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posted 28-05-2000 10:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wicca Wiggins   Click Here to Email Wicca Wiggins     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Does anyone know what Willow was talking about when she was talking to Tara about her real name? Or why she was writing on her back?

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yally
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posted 28-05-2000 10:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for yally   Click Here to Email yally     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Keenangel:

Oh and did you recognise Adam without all of his yukky other demon-parts??

Interesting.


Didn't he look strange? From a distance I thought he was Jonathan

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C
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posted 28-05-2000 10:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for C   Click Here to Email C     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wicca Wiggins:
Does anyone know what Willow was talking about when she was talking to Tara about her real name? Or why she was writing on her back?

The poem was in Greek, and given the chat they were having one presumes it was a reference to Sappho.

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BD
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posted 28-05-2000 10:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BD     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
This ep was just like a real dream. The main 'themes' behind each dream were simple, but there was a lot of other (seemingly unrelated) scenes and imagery (the cheese guy, Joyce living in the walls, Spike's 'modelling') that I think were just red herrings and don't have any significance.

Giles' dream was definatly my favourite, Buffy really did look like a little girl. I think Giles singing (and Willow/Xander holding up their lighters without looking) has got to be one of the funniest moments this season.

This is my favourite ep from season 4 and probably one of the best ever. It's easily as good as the other season finales. This ep was written/directed by Joss and it shows, a classic!

10/10

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Giles the grocer
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posted 28-05-2000 10:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Giles the grocer     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
This ep struck me as the result of all the originality, humour and um er character driven-ness of the previous ep being sucked out by a metaphysical vacume cleaner and then the deposited residue being dumped out of the dustbag and called a season finale(longest sentence EVER!). Maybe if they'd managed to interweave this ep and the plot/action heavy Primevil it would have worked better and been less abstract, but as it is I don't think it can be mentioned in the same breath as Becoming or Graduation day. That said I am excited for season 5 so I can find out what I didn't know was going to happen and what I didn't know who Buffy are (Tara talk confusing).

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The_Watcher
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posted 28-05-2000 10:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The_Watcher   Click Here to Email The_Watcher     Edit/Delete Message  14751634   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The_Watcher:
totally! Restless is the worst ep of Season 4, which is the worst season of Buffy. Do we have a contender here for worst ep ever of Buffy?

Okay maybe I was a bit hasty in this judgement. After reading some of the explanation here im understanding more. I still dont like the episode and dont think its that good, but its not the worst ep. S4 is the worst season though, without a doubt.

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matthewjames
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posted 28-05-2000 10:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for matthewjames   Click Here to Email matthewjames     Edit/Delete Message  7806808   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BD:
This ep was just like a real dream. The main 'themes' behind each dream were simple, but there was a lot of other (seemingly unrelated) scenes and imagery (the cheese guy, Joyce living in the walls
10/10


cheese: for the sake of a funny "at leat you gys" line at the end, and because the man waggling cheese was very hilarious...
joyce in walls: Buffy's guilt at kind of exiling her mother? most of it makes sense, ina hugely obscure, Freudian kind of way. but, this episode left me guessing and thinking a lot. wheras the previous episode, there wasn't anything on a par with "oh, how is the buffy/angel final breakup going to go?" or "oh, is angel going to be cured?". it was just Adam had to be defeated, and he was, as everyone knew would happen. it was just a question of how, which, ultimately,w asn't very interesting. it was the series climax, it just wasn't very good. but, Restless was a wonderfully inventive episode.

[This message has been edited by matthewjames (edited 28-05-2000).]

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SilentSpirit
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posted 29-05-2000 01:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SilentSpirit   Click Here to Email SilentSpirit     Edit/Delete Message  70425252   Reply w/Quote
now that was why i watch buffy

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Joe
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posted 29-05-2000 04:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joe   Click Here to Email Joe     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by yally:
Didn't he look strange? From a distance I thought he was Jonathan

George Herzeberg looked about 40 with all the make-up, and I was surprised that - according to IMDB - he'd done so little acting work, but without the green bits he's more early twenties (and I almost thought it was Graham from a distance, except that I saw GH's name in the credits - cool cameo).

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spirit
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posted 29-05-2000 07:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spirit   Click Here to Email spirit     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Okay, I seem to be in something of a minority here, but I was bored almost to death by this episode.
Don't get me wrong, I understood it, (well almost all of it - cheese guy is the sort of thing I dream about when I think it's a HOT DATE kind of dream) but this seemed an excessive use of Buffy time for what turned out to be a force easy to get rid of. Buffy goes, 'Oh I'm not like that, you're wrong go away' and POOF! problem solved?
Could have been summed up briefly...except for Giles' singing. Loved that.
Actually, I loved Director Giles' comments to Harmony - was anyone else giggling then?
Other than that, apretty poor ending to a season. I almost wish I hadn't watched.
Thank goodness the trailer for Angel looked more interesting.

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Barbara
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posted 29-05-2000 08:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbara   Click Here to Email Barbara     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I watched this with my parents and we all agreed it was very freaky and very odd and very strange.

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Berkley
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posted 29-05-2000 09:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Berkley   Click Here to Email Berkley     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I think it's okay as an episode but I don't think it made a very good final. That's just my two pence worth.

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Baby ate my dingo
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posted 29-05-2000 11:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Baby ate my dingo     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
My .Brain . Hurts . As you may be able to tell ,I've just seen Restless
. It was like one big trailer for S5 , but it would seem Tara has more
to do with things than first thought . Giles sung again - what a guy .
Allowing him to come out of his English shell may actually have benifited him ,
producing such quotes as :

"Bloody Hell"
"A Watcher scoffs at gravity!"
"Just 'cos this is never gonna work doesn't mean you have to be negative"
"Please don't bleed on my couch ,I've just had it steam-cleaned"
and the classic
"You're going to get your arse kicked" (When drunken)

But what of the cheese salesman ? All I can think of is the fact that Buffy likes cheese
. And what about that FBI sign at he start of the tape - at first I thought it was
a government plot but no ...

"I can't steal from the comfertable and give to the moderatly impovorish - It doesn't have the same ring"

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The Griffin
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posted 29-05-2000 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Griffin   Click Here to Email The Griffin     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Well, I thought that Restless was building up to be one of the best episodes ever but then it fell flat. You just feel something was missing at the end.
I understood basically what the dreams were about but overall I don't really get what this episode was trying to tell us.

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celyn
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posted 29-05-2000 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for celyn   Click Here to Email celyn     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I didn't really like this episode at all, though Giles singing was very funny and Xander and Willow holding there lighters when reading *lol*
And the best, best bit for me was finaly getting to see Four Star Mary up on the stage.

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StuStuStu
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posted 29-05-2000 11:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for StuStuStu   Click Here to Email StuStuStu     Edit/Delete Message  11315396   Reply w/Quote
Yup, great to see Four Star Mary up there. Tad, I didn't catch you - were you there? And who was the bearded pianist?

I utterly loved this ep. Righ up until Buffy's dream, where it seemed like they realised they hadn't written an actual ending.

There's a damn good web page in "Dream Analysis of Restless" *g*

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Tracy
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posted 29-05-2000 12:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tracy   Click Here to Email Tracy     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Just sat and watched Restless! Having heard from my brother about the weird dream stuff last night I thought I would wait and watch it in the clear light of day. I must say overall I enjoyed the episode perhaps not a season finale as in previous seasons the finale has always been a big showdown so in those terms I suppose Friday was the finale. However I did find it interesting delving into the subconscious of all the scooby gang - intrigued as to the role Tara will play next year - she is obviously more than she lets on. Found all the dream sequences really good - especially liked seeing Giles singing again - thought Buffy figured out too quickly how to stop the first slayer - loved the wisecracks about the hair!! All in all an enjoyable hour which makes you wish that Season 5 was just around the corner. How will I spend the time waiting for the next new episodes.!!

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Vox
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posted 29-05-2000 01:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vox   Click Here to Email Vox     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by StuStuStu:

There's a damn good web page in "Dream Analysis of Restless" *g*

I'm working on it, I'm working on it! Give me time...

And I don't think it'll be just one page.

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Alex
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posted 29-05-2000 01:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alex   Click Here to Email Alex     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Okay, were there two different versions of the last two episodes of Buffy? Because all of you who liked the dire Premeval and didn't like the amazing Restless have obviously not been watching the same show as me.

For one thing, didn't anyone else think Restless was the funniest episode of Buffy ever? You didn't have to watch it and think deep thoughts (I did that when I watched it the second time last night - well shallow thoughts anyway). You could just laugh all the way through it:

Giles as the producer of Willow's play "stop doing that, it's very annoying." "Remember, the audience wants to find you, strip you naked and eat you alive."

Giles and Spike on the swings!!

Xander and Joyce!

Xander watching Willow and Tara!!!!
mmmmmmmmm Willow and Tara
--uh, where was I, got distracted for a minute there....

Riley and Adam: "We need to build a fort" "I'll get some pillows"


and possibly best of all (well apart from Willow and Tara), Giles singing!

and that's not even all the times I was laughing out loud.


Of course you can't compare this episode with Becoming, Graduation Day and Prophecy Girl. Those were all episodes where Buffy finally killed the Big Bad and stopped a threat that was built up over a large part of the season. This season the episode that did that was Primeval. Restless, was a completely different, and unique, at least for Buffy, kind of episode. I didn't see it as a prologue for the next season either - although I could be wrong, maybe the guy with the cheese will be the next major bad guy? There were some hints about Tara and 7:30, but this episode was basically looking back not forward - back at the first 4 seasons, and especially at how everyone has changed - and hasn't changed - up to now. After all, Buffy has been struggling to combine being a slayer with having friends and a normal life ever since Welcome to the Hellmouth, now Buffy has realised that she has to fight to keep her friends -- and this being Buffy that metaphorical fight had to be turned into a literal fight.

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Opiumia
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posted 29-05-2000 02:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Opiumia     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
That episode had to be the most spaced out cheese dream ever! On a scale of 1 to 10, I give it Ripe Camembert.

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julz
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posted 29-05-2000 02:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for julz   Click Here to Email julz     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I think when it comes down to it, that ep was Joss throwing all of us who have watched these characters for four long but highly enjoyable seasons a rather meaty bone.

The plot was poop, really, if anyone was watching it standalone for that, they were always going to be disappointed.

On the other hand, who wouldn't like the chance to get inside the dreams of these characters; to see what makes them tick? That's what we got, an indepth look we could never have seen in any other way. There was so much subtext buried in those dreams it must have taken ages to construct it and I am convinced that every bit has a meaning. Watching Willow's dream alone changed my entire view of her; she still holds S1 willow inside.

Don't try to over-analalyse the episode, don't treat is as just another prophecy girl, graduation day etc. etc. For those people who are in it for the stories not the characters, pretend this season ended at Primevil. For me, I think I'll be rewatching that episode for a _long_ time... till about S5 time, actually

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Robbie
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posted 29-05-2000 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robbie   Click Here to Email Robbie     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I quite liked the ep. Althought I think I will have to watch it a number of times to totally understand it.

As for the Cheeseman either it is a red herring and has nothing to do with anything or it is important. Willows, Xanders and Giles dreams were all different and related to their own problems, except for two common bits, being chased by the slayer and the appearance of the cheeseman.

I would not think that knowing Buffy likes chesse would make the others dream about it, my brother likes nuts, but I certainly don't have dreams with nuts in them.

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Braid
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posted 29-05-2000 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Braid   Click Here to Email Braid     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Not one of my favourite eps I'll admit and definitely a let down as a season finale
BUT
I did kinda appreciate what Joss was trying to do.

It gave us an opportunity to see the inner workings of each characters minds and I thought Willow's was a nice touch as, although she seems to have matured in S4, the self doubts and insecurity she has had since the beginning of S1 are still there.
Xander's too was proof that early issues are still not resolved, for example, his relationship with Buffy (the "brother" exchange between them?).
I agree that it was more of a set up for S5 than a final flourish for S4 which is a disappointment as S5 is still a long way off. It made me wonder just how far ahead Joss has all this planned as there were so many references to early episodes - does he honestly plan this or does he make it up as he goes along, I wonder!

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Lt Dan
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posted 29-05-2000 05:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lt Dan     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by StuStuStu:
Yup, great to see Four Star Mary up there. Tad, I didn't catch you - were you there? And who was the bearded pianist?

Stu, Tad was there...he was playing bass instead of Steve who unfortunately was out of town the day of filming, big shame that. Did you also catch Zu ? He was in shot for only a split second at the beginning of the scene. Dave got excellent scene time alongside Tony, but they all looked so cool up there. Well done guys....

Btw the bearded chap was Christophe Beck, Buffy's maestro composer...

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Jen E
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posted 29-05-2000 06:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jen E     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by buffy boreanaz:
I read somewere that buffy likes chesse

Im think Reilly told willow that Buffy liked Cheese just before they really got it together.

I so did not understand that. Parts of it, yeah, but nost of it, no.
Also, why the hell was Willow dreaming about Harmony?
Another thing, (I may have been hallucinating but bear with me,) In Xander's dream, when he went into the high-school or where ever it was, and it was all green, I'm pretty sure that the very first guy you see hanging aroung in the corridor was Joss Whedon himself. Like I said I was probably hallucinating.

[This message has been edited by Jen E (edited 29-05-2000).]

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Idiot Jed
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posted 29-05-2000 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Idiot Jed   Click Here to Email Idiot Jed     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Oh wow! Wasn't it fantastic. i'd built it up in my mind so much I was just convinced it was gonna be a big disapointment in the end. And then I thought maybe it would be a bit like the emperors new clothes you know, having to pretend you liked it so you didn't look stupid. But it wasn't like that at all. So good. Hard to tell at this early stage but preliminary rival for the best ep ever spot (and don't say that very often, not since Becoming in fact). And isn't Joss just so considerate, giving us all this impossibly subjective stuff to analyse whilst waiting for the next season. As far as what it was about I think everyone else has covered it, generally speaking. I'm sure we'll be privaleged with a few more indepth essays on the subject after people have had to rewatch. Just so, so very good. Loved the Apocalypse Now references, and the siting of 7-3-0, couldn't leave that out od course. Just wow, basically, not a terribly constructive word I know, but I think it about sums it up!

And the cheese guy was a joke surely. Cause the only thing I could think of was that it was a slight take on the more romantic, sappy sides of the show, cheesy romance won't protect you from real life and all that. But generally I'm still thinking no, the cheese guy has to be a joke....right?

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Whistler
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posted 29-05-2000 06:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Whistler   Click Here to Email Whistler     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Wow! 47 posts in a day. That's going some. Well, I was out yesterday night so I've only just seen this ep.

Although this was a difficult ep to understand it's all the more brilliant for it. You can keep watching and discover different messages about the charcters each time. This was a well time ep with the Scooby Gang facing their inner fears before the final season. Joss is finally drawing everything together for the conclusion.

Liked the cheese-guy, nice comic touch. And good to see Snyder and Harmony again. Although it could have done with having Amy -de-ratted in there as well!!

And so much for the Xander 'dying' in their dreams and attending his funeral. It just goes to show you can't believe all the so-called spoilers that fly around!

Funniest bit of the ep:

Riley: Time to build a fortress
Adam: I'll get the pillows

*lol*

Interesting to see how S5 goes about addressing the whole origin of the Slayer. I get the feeling that it's going to be a blast. Roll on January!!

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buffyaholic
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posted 29-05-2000 06:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for buffyaholic   Click Here to Email buffyaholic     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
i understood it more at the end but after Willow and Xanders dream i hadnt a clue. Giles dream helped me understand it. i thought it was quite a good episode, but the cheese guy what was his deal???

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Lizzie
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posted 29-05-2000 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lizzie   Click Here to Email Lizzie     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
That ep was just plain wierd, but it was pretty funny thought, the 'we watchers scoff at gravity' made me laugh, and so did the Joyce in the wall thing. Giles singing and the lighters was cool too but what I don't understand is how Joss is gonna follow on from that. Usually he starts the series as if they've just had the summer break but this time there is too many questions left unanswered like why was Tara in every dream. I think shes evil, summat weird going on with her anyway, remember when her and willow tryed to cast a spell and she hid the powder under her bed, what is going on with her, its sooooooo annoying!!!!

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angelus the demonic
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posted 29-05-2000 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for angelus the demonic   Click Here to Email angelus the demonic     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
People who have said that Buffy defeated the slayer too quickly in my opinion are wrong.Buffy did not actually get rid of the slayer for good she just stopped the dreams.I think that we will propably see more of this slayer in the future.Also this season finale did have a twist.Ok so we knew she would kill Adam but what we didn't know was that in doing so she would unleash the power/spirit of the first slayer.

Also could someone help me.I have used my own insight in to a part of this ep but i could be going in the totally wrong direction.Buffy said to the slayer "Stop that,we don't do this anymore" when they were fighting.Giles said that the first slayer never had a watcher.The first slayer also gave the impretion that she was very primal because of the way she looked and due to the fact that Tara said she couldn't talk.With this evidence it would look like the first slayer was back in cave man times.With no watcher the first slayer would have not known what her powers were for.She had attacked humans so i think Buffy was trying to get at the fact that slayers are not aloud to kill people.Does anyone else have any views or opinions on this.

[This message has been edited by angelus the demonic (edited 29-05-2000).]

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killercoyote
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posted 29-05-2000 07:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for killercoyote   Click Here to Email killercoyote     Edit/Delete Message  70928569   Reply w/Quote
To my utter folly, this was the only ep of season 4 that I actually recorded, but, wow, I'm glad I did. This one might actually keep me going till season 5...(wishful thinking I know). Just wanted to give my 2 cents worth, that this was one of the best Buffy's I have ever seen and loved more or less everything. The whole 'first slayer' thing was a bit pants, but at least they got to fight in the desert which was cool. Some things in there seemed a bit Lewis Caroll, like when Anya was driving Xander's truck using gestures...maybe it's just me but it reminded me of 'Alice through the looking glass'. Anyways, the last scene left me mad with anticipation, I can't wait for season 5, ooooh, I'm too excited!!!

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buffy boreanaz
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posted 29-05-2000 08:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for buffy boreanaz     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
SPOILER

[This message has been edited by StuStuStu (edited 29-05-2000).]

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Connavar
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posted 29-05-2000 08:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Connavar   Click Here to Email Connavar     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The_Watcher:
You are just playin devils advocate here arent you? Please tell me you are?

personally, I think that tequila is more likely to be the devils contribution to alcohol. I don't really see him as the 'Snowball' type

BTW, I thought the episode was very funny,but totaly confusing!

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Girl, uninterrupted
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posted 29-05-2000 08:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Girl, uninterrupted   Click Here to Email Girl, uninterrupted     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Absolutely, definitely a prologue for S5 rather than an epilogue for S4. Give Joss his credit though, whether they were regarded as good or bad episodes, the finale (including Restless) to S4 has certainly got everyone talking!! I don't think the first slayer business is over, more like only just starting.

Just seen the previews of S1 that starts on Sunday. Hope it's uncut and not the poor effort we were subject to on the beeb first time round. X-Files afterward looks pretty funny too!

[This message has been edited by Girl, uninterrupted (edited 29-05-2000).]

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BD
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posted 29-05-2000 08:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BD     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Funniest line for me had to be:
Xander: "Sometimes I think about two women doing a spell, and then I do a spell by myself."

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Connavar
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posted 29-05-2000 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Connavar   Click Here to Email Connavar     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
There were so many brilliant lines in Restless',you just couldnt list them all.
I agree that its probably best not to try and read to much into it, as dreams are like that. But,maybe there is some significance to it, again, like real dreams
That actually sounds like I'm contradicting myself, but maybe you understand what I mean.
I expect to see some sort of conclusion to this at the start of S5, as I can't beleive the first slayer was so easily defeated.
I think I will also watch it a few times more as i think it is easy to miss things first time around

I really enjoyed it though

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killercoyote
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posted 29-05-2000 09:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for killercoyote   Click Here to Email killercoyote     Edit/Delete Message  70928569   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by buffy boreanaz:

SPOILER

I understood the big brother thing in xanders dream See buffy said big brother to xander which makes her little sister ....


(Be calm)...there is a whole other section for spoilers buffy boreanaz

[This message has been edited by killercoyote (edited 29-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by killercoyote (edited 29-05-2000).]

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Missmalkin
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posted 29-05-2000 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missmalkin   Click Here to Email Missmalkin     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
The name question in Willows dream that was a reference to their relationship ie the cat is owned by them and so is their relationship and so far Willow cannot give it a name - thats my view anyhow..

Anyone one else get a strong feeling of Lion Whitch and the Wardrobe - the sacrificial lamb in Giles dream, the sacrifice on the stone in Xanders Dream, going through curtains, going through tunels ie through the wardrobe. Willows book report on LWW ???

This episode was so great !!!!! Malkin is in awe of the Joss.
It was funny and sad and intrigueing and weird, the music was brilliant particularly in the swing scene. The swing scene WOW! and Snyder as Marlon Brando ie Apoco Now WOW! Giles! singing.
Adam before he went to bits what a sexy geezer!

One thing did anyone else notice that the gang aren't together as they were,they are reconciled but look how they sat on the couch and Willow alone on the step, how separate they are now, seasons back they would have been sitting closer and Willow would have been in the kitchen too. Growing up has turned them into individuals and distanced them and I don't think we are ever going to get that back. Buffy needs her friends and her friends need her but the relationship has moved on they are adults now.
A bonza 10 outa 10 and may the force be with Joss forever.

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drewy
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posted 30-05-2000 12:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for drewy   Click Here to Email drewy     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
my view on the lion the witch and the wardrobe is that it symbolised willows relationships

the lion = Oz
the witch= Tara
the wardrobe = coming out of the closet

this is just my opinion u may disagree

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Joolie-XanderLover
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posted 30-05-2000 01:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joolie-XanderLover   Click Here to Email Joolie-XanderLover     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
My opinion on the episode is "oh dear!" - and you can take that any way you like!

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Su
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posted 30-05-2000 09:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Su   Click Here to Email Su     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
My brother was saying it reminded him of the Matrix. I've never seen it so I wouldnt know. He also pointed out the 'heart (Xander), spirit (Willow) and mind (Giles)' thing to me with the cards. I don't know if anyone got that cos I needed it to be pointed out to me.


Anyway this is my first post! (HEY)

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Idiot Jed
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posted 30-05-2000 09:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Idiot Jed   Click Here to Email Idiot Jed     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Hey Su, yes I'm surprised people haven't mentioned that more, with the cards. I thought that was a nice touch, though it took me two repeated viewings to actually spot it

Hope to see you around lots....

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Perdita
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posted 30-05-2000 11:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Perdita   Click Here to Email Perdita     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by C:
The poem was in Greek, and given the chat they were having one presumes it was a reference to Sappho.

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marshmallow2k
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posted 30-05-2000 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for marshmallow2k   Click Here to Email marshmallow2k     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
i thought this episode was goos and i understood about half of it. i liked giles's song in the bronze! was the cheese man anything to do with willow saying buffy liked cheese in 'the initiative'?

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Kenickie
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posted 30-05-2000 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kenickie   Click Here to Email Kenickie     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
This is going to make me sound all pretentious, but...

Anybody who didn't think the episode was brilliant didn't really get it.

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killercoyote
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posted 30-05-2000 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for killercoyote   Click Here to Email killercoyote     Edit/Delete Message  70928569   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kenickie:
This is going to make me sound all pretentious, but...

Anybody who didn't think the episode was brilliant didn't really get it.


Pretentious...No

Wise...Yes

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Lena
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posted 30-05-2000 04:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lena   Click Here to Email Lena     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I loved this ep, I think Willow's dream was pretty easy to analyse, Xanders too ("were you born there? (in the basement) possibly!") -says it all really for him.
Giles was lovable - showing to everyone how he feels Buffy is like a daughter to him, but showing doubts that he treats her too harshly when it comes to 'her duty'.
And Buffy's showing how different she really is from the other slayers of the past... I could go on for ever.

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Alex
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posted 30-05-2000 10:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alex   Click Here to Email Alex     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by buffy boreanaz:
I understood the big brother thing in xanders dream See buffy said big brother to xander which makes her little sister ....

[\B]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by killercoyote:
[B] (Be calm)...there is a whole other section for spoilers buffy boreanaz


Aren't you being a bit oversensitive here? I assume b_b's post just means "This is what I think the big brother thing means..." Her style is abrasive but I dount that she actually knows anything about S5 to give away even if she wanted to.

And I'm not just saying that because I'm miffed because my reply saying I disagreed and explaining what I think it really means got deleted too, honest


Though to be fair, I suppose stu can't be blamed for deleting any post that says SPOILER at the top without bothering to read it first. That's what I'd do if I had to go through all the posts in here.

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Alex
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posted 30-05-2000 10:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alex   Click Here to Email Alex     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by killercoyote:
Pretentious...No

Wise...Yes


Well, I though it made you sound very pretentious and also absolutely right

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Missmalkin
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posted 30-05-2000 10:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missmalkin   Click Here to Email Missmalkin     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
For those above who were discussing Willows dream, this is one translation of the Sappho poem that Willow was writing on Taras back:

Artfully adorned Aphrodite, deathless child of Zeus and weaver of wiles I beg you please don't hurt me, don't overcome my spirit, goddess, with longing~
Fits in with the spirit theme/card.
Thoughts anyone???


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Missmalkin
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posted 30-05-2000 11:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missmalkin   Click Here to Email Missmalkin     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Drewy
Thanks for that info - great. Now your thoughts on Sales man please, what do you think?
Harmony - woman blond bimbo type gal
Buffy - Playing the worldly wise man eater
Willow is considering which type of woman to be - love the quote about 'few exports'.
And later Harmony crying Buffy tearing the cowboy 'man' off a strip Xander lying dead the floor.
Could this mean Willows crush on Xander is now dead, ie man with the sales is dead.???

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drewy
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posted 30-05-2000 11:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for drewy   Click Here to Email drewy     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
could be onto something there missmalkin, willow doesn't seem to have shown much interest in Xander lately, i think she's finally moved on.

I'll watch again and tell u what i think of that scene it's not that clear in my head right now, but i don't think Joss intended it to be!

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killercoyote
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posted 31-05-2000 12:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for killercoyote   Click Here to Email killercoyote     Edit/Delete Message  70928569   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex:
Aren't you being a bit oversensitive here? I assume b_b's post just means "This is what I think the big brother thing means..." Her style is abrasive but I doubt that she actually knows anything about S5 to give away even if she wanted to.

If pointing out that there is a spoiler section to someone who has posted a SPOILER (be it rumour or fact) is oversensitive, then, yes, I'm being oversensitive. If you're of the school of thought however, (the rational one) that spoilers should be posted in the SPOILER section, then you will agree that I was merely trying to enlighten buffy boreanaz as to this fact.

PLUS if her spoiler turns out to be true...I shall be VERY MIFFED!!

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Joe
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posted 31-05-2000 12:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joe   Click Here to Email Joe     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
What's certain is that this episode delivers an upwardly mobile, pant-oriented kick to the Slayer mythology. Vox is going to be *very* busy.
THis is conjecture, but I think it's significant that the Ur-Slayer said 'The Slayer does not walk the earth' (my emphasis). Whether the spell was intended to paralyse or extract uranium (which it effectively did, and disposed of it, also), it drew directly on the 'Slayer-force', which seems to be not unlike the vengeance spirit from 'Pangs' (which might be one reason why Buffy had such misgivings about fighting that spirit). The spirits of all previous Slayers were bound temporarily to walk the earth again, hence the chagrin of the First, representing all the others.
Anyway, once the 'Slayer-force' was tapped, the original plan probably went awry because, with her prophesy power supercharged, Buffy could anticipate Adam's actions well in advance, as well as employing the magical skills of previous Slayers (I don't think Willow is *that* powerful, unless it's a 'whole greater than the sum of the parts' plus Slayer-force thing).
Erm, that's all for now...

[This message has been edited by Joe (edited 31-05-2000).]

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StuStuStu
Watcher

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posted 31-05-2000 05:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for StuStuStu   Click Here to Email StuStuStu     Edit/Delete Message  11315396   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex:
Aren't you being a bit oversensitive here?

Maybe. But I'd rather be oversensitive than miss a major spoiler..

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The_Watcher
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posted 31-05-2000 06:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The_Watcher   Click Here to Email The_Watcher     Edit/Delete Message  14751634   Reply w/Quote
I didnt get the cards thing straight away, only thinking about it later. And I wasn't too sure as I could only remember Xanders card which was the heart.

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Five by Five
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posted 31-05-2000 08:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Five by Five   Click Here to Email Five by Five     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
nope didn't understand any of it

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Baby ate my dingo
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posted 31-05-2000 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Baby ate my dingo     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
The thing that's nagging me is the FBI insignia at the start of "Apocyalypse Now"

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The_Watcher
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posted 01-06-2000 01:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The_Watcher   Click Here to Email The_Watcher     Edit/Delete Message  14751634   Reply w/Quote
I assumed that was a copyright message, like our Copyright messages from FACT at the beginning of videos.

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Missmalkin
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posted 01-06-2000 01:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missmalkin   Click Here to Email Missmalkin     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Oh 'Baby' if that were the only thing that was bugging me in the dreams:
Buffy
1 The bed in the Buffy dream - whats its significance
2 'We don't do that anymore' but Slayers do fight now - First Slayer/Buffy fight in the sand
Giles
3 Why is Anya telling the joke
4 Why is Spike in black and white
Xander
5 Why is Willow a faker according to Buffy
6 The shark reference
Willow
7 What is the Greek tragedy Anya refers to.
8 The cowboy - why is he looking for a salesman
9 Is Willow bi or gay or just making up her mind?
And..
10 What is the significance of the Watcher and that the first Slayer didn't have one.

*Nox* and *Vox* when are you going to post the difinitive explanations???

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Whistler
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posted 01-06-2000 06:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Whistler   Click Here to Email Whistler     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baby ate my dingo:
The thing that's nagging me is the FBI insignia at the start of "Apocyalypse Now"

All American videos carry that warning at the start to warn people they face prosecution if caught copying it.

And as for Vox and Nox posting 'definitive' explanations. 'Detailed' yes, 'definitive' open to debate

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spikesgirl
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posted 01-06-2000 07:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spikesgirl     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
There were 3 main bits in restless i liked
1)Spike Posing 4 photos he looked sooo sexy
2)SPIKE on a swing in a brown tweed suit
3)giles singing wot he wos ment 2B saying
(sorry got a little lazy)
The rest was very confusing and very boring

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Stake
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posted 01-06-2000 08:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stake   Click Here to Email Stake     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I thought it was ingenious all the way. but never mind the directions there lives were going in what about the big bother thing between buffy and xander.

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Idiot Jed
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posted 01-06-2000 08:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Idiot Jed   Click Here to Email Idiot Jed     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stake:
I thought it was ingenious all the way. but never mind the directions there lives were going in what about the big bother thing between buffy and xander.

Cause there was that whole big sister/little sister thing with Faith too. So yeah, I would also love to know what people thought of Buffy's big brother comment.

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Alex
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posted 01-06-2000 09:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alex   Click Here to Email Alex     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Missmalkin:
Oh 'Baby' if that were the only thing that was bugging me in the dreams:
Buffy

2 'We don't do that anymore' but Slayers do fight now - First Slayer/Buffy fight in the sand

10 What is the significance of the Watcher and that the first Slayer didn't have one.

*Nox* and *Vox* when are you going to post the difinitive explanations???


Hmm... until Nox and Vox give us the definitives explanations I can do some wild speculation on those two questions.

Since Buffy obviously does fight a lot, possibly she meant that slayers don't fight and kill humans any more? That's the only significant rule about what slayers can and can't do we've seen in the surface. And of course the only place slayers can learn that rule from is the watchers. So maybe the first slayer killed people, and some time later the watchers took over and taught the slayers to only kill demons?

In support of that idea, Faith did kill people and didn't have a watcher for most of the time she was a slayer. her first watcher was killed, and it must have been very soon after she became a slayer. Then she spent some time being chased all the way across America without a watcher. Then Giles took over, but it was always obvious that he was Buffy's watcher and was just looking after Faith. Wesley was there about 1 day before she killed a man. So no watcher => slayer kills humans.

What's more, within minutes of telling Wesley she wasn't taking the council's orders any more, Buffy set out to kill Faith.

In time though, the Watchers have come to think they are more important and have more to do than make sure slayers don't kill people. That's why Giles tells the first slayer "You underestimate me ... I can defeat you" but he couldn't defeat her - Buffy did that on her own.

now I've said all that it doesn't look very convincing any more....there must be a better answer

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BD
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posted 02-06-2000 12:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BD     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Missmalkin:

4 Why is Spike in black and white

This could represent the decisions Giles has to make about his future. Giles sees Spike and his profession as a watcher in black and white and is confident that he is good at it ("Don't push me around, I have a great deal to do") but having a family (or being a father figure to Buffy) is more complicated and a much bigger responsibility ("What am I supposed to do with all of this?").

Does Giles opt for the black and white world of 'Showbiz Spike' (remaining a watcher and using his singing and his only emotional outlet) or does he join with crying Olivia in the 'coloured' and confusing world of being a parent?

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Joolie-XanderLover
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posted 02-06-2000 01:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joolie-XanderLover   Click Here to Email Joolie-XanderLover     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Did anyone notice that Anya told Xander that she was in love with him but he didn't reciprocate? (probably thinking about me!)

Just wondered if there was any significance in that as after watching tonight's eppy on BBC 2 Xander and Willow seemed very much into each other and whether he's thinking about her again after her "coming out" to them all in The Yoko Factor.

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Whistler
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posted 02-06-2000 06:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Whistler   Click Here to Email Whistler     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Alex - I take your point that without a Watcher a Slayer seems more out of control. But if you remember in the ep 'Ted' Buffy attacked and 'killed' Ted who, at that point, she thought was human. She was still being instructed by a Watcher and taking orders, as it were, from the Council. For a few moments she lost her and went all 'primeval' in attacking someone because she didn't like him (although he DID attack her first)

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Joolie-XanderLover
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posted 02-06-2000 07:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joolie-XanderLover   Click Here to Email Joolie-XanderLover     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
BTW Anya said that to Xander in Primevial not Restless - that will teach me to watch the two out of order!

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Vox
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posted 02-06-2000 11:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vox   Click Here to Email Vox     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Missmalkin:

*Nox* and *Vox* when are you going to post the definitive explanations???

I have my whole "middle of finals" excuse at the moment, but on the bright side Masquerade has finally put up her entry for Restless. It's not comprehensive by any stretch of the imagination but it's thoughtful stuff.

You can find it from my listed home page:

Above the Law -> Links page -> All Things Philosophical about Buffy the Vampire Slayer -> Episode Guide -> Restless

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She
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posted 03-06-2000 11:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for She   Click Here to Email She     Edit/Delete Message  69924637   Reply w/Quote
I understood it! but it's really hard to put it in to word that can be understood. so I am not going to try.

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RedWitch
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posted 03-06-2000 04:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RedWitch   Click Here to Email RedWitch     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by buffy boreanaz:
SPOILER

[This message has been edited by StuStuStu (edited 29-05-2000).]


NOW I'm confused (and heavily curious). Series 4 has finished. Series 5 hasn't been written yet. So how can buffy boreanaz have posted a spoiler? Unless buffy boreanaz is Joss in disguise, and gave away what he has been dreaming up for series 5. And knowing what little I do about Joss, he's not likely to give away real plot points. Is he?

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Whistler
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posted 03-06-2000 06:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Whistler   Click Here to Email Whistler     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Only that when he posted the message S4 HADN'T finished so he obviously gave away something from 'Restless' that could be used as a story arc in S5

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rachtVS
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posted 03-06-2000 09:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rachtVS   Click Here to Email rachtVS     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Missmalkin:

Anyone one else get a strong feeling of Lion Whitch and the Wardrobe - the sacrificial lamb in Giles dream, the sacrifice on the stone in Xanders Dream, going through curtains, going through tunels ie through the wardrobe. Willows book report on LWW ???


Not trying to be irritating, but if you want to draw comparisons between this ep. and LWW, you need to take into account the HEAVILY religious basis and imagery in LWW, although maybe this has been drawn into a much looser spiritual significance (I'll have to watch the ep. again!) Any thoughts anyone. Also, Drewy, isn't the "coming out" theory a little crude? Willow's journey of self discovery has been much more subtle, hasn't it?

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rachtVS
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posted 03-06-2000 09:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rachtVS   Click Here to Email rachtVS     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Missmalkin:

Artfully adorned Aphrodite, deathless child of Zeus and weaver of wiles I beg you please don't hurt me, don't overcome my spirit, goddess, with longing~
Fits in with the spirit theme/card.
Thoughts anyone???


Ahah! This quote seems to have some strong significance (forgive me for pointing out the obvious!) "Artfully adorned Aphrodite" would in context be Tara, signified by her beauty and the more obvious fact that it is painted on her, making her "adorned". This quote can give us some clues of her identity, then?

"Deathless child of Zeus and weaver of wiles"
The "weaver of wiles" bit could be to do with her spellcasting abilities, and as to her being a "deathless child of Zeus", does this not make her, if not a god (this doesn't fit the shows mythology even if Zeus WAS a god) then one of TPTB, or, at a stretch, the off-spring of a union between one of TPTB and a witch (didn't she say it came from her mother's side?)

Willow is, I presume, the one who is pleading with her not to "overcome my spirit", as she is the one who is physically painting the words onto Tara's back, suggesting that on some subconscious level she is aware of who Tara actually is, and where she has come from. I think this argument is lent strength by the amount Tara participates in the rest of the ep., especially significant being the fact that she is the channel of communication between the 1st and present day slayers, showing her intimate connection with this primeval power.

Sigh, I could analyse it for hours, it was a remarkably juicy episode!

What are everyone's thoughts on this analysis? Is it valid, or am I reiterating what everyone already knows. I know I'm only scratching the surface

Also, am I the only one who found the cheese device a little artificial and too obviously fishy in a red herring kind of way. Maybe Joss knew we'd get our head's round the rest of it sooner or later, but that we'd be scratching our heads WELL into S5 with that one

[This message has been edited by rachtVS (edited 03-06-2000).]

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Missmalkin
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posted 03-06-2000 10:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missmalkin   Click Here to Email Missmalkin     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Thanks for all above comments, I keep thinking I'm getting close to understanding some of it then go off on another thread and zip I'm lost.
rachtVS - I didn't get that at all but it makes good sense! I only thought about the erotic/'writing my story on you' in relation to the poem on Taras back.

Joolie - you think Xander and Willow are closer since Yoko? - I wish I saw that, I've been making up my mind that Willow and Xander ain't gonna ever make it ...sad sad conclusion. I thought Willow saw him in her dream as an irritant, imature or dead.
Xander saw her as part of a sexual fantasy and a faker??? But it may have just been that naughty First Slayer trying to kill his heart...

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RooBall
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posted 04-06-2000 06:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RooBall   Click Here to Email RooBall     Edit/Delete Message  19468063   Reply w/Quote
I loved the episode. Just thought you might like to know. It was a big step away from endings like Graduation Day & Becomming, but thats what was needed. A valuable insight into the original four...Although I was hoping for more appearances from the likes of Cordelia & Angel. Ah well...

Points I wondered which were of note...when Giles found the clock it seemed to be reading 7:30 (sad for noticing :P), I missed a chunk of series 4...was "Little Miss Muffet sat of her tuffet counting down from 730" (Graduation Day) ever explained? Is this relevent to the episode?

Synder should have been in Apocalypse Now...a very impressive preformance

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loubuzzer
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posted 04-06-2000 08:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for loubuzzer   Click Here to Email loubuzzer     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Retless was total CRAP.I couldn't understand it.The only thing i knew what was going was the first slayer.The Angel finale was much better.

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Whistler
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posted 04-06-2000 08:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Whistler   Click Here to Email Whistler     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Your logic seems a bit confused. If you don't understand it it must, therefore, be crap. Don't know if I agree with that.

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The_Watcher
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posted 05-06-2000 12:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The_Watcher   Click Here to Email The_Watcher     Edit/Delete Message  14751634   Reply w/Quote
wow 100 replies. I think this thread will still be going up till Season 5 starts by the look of it.

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Wmply Willow
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posted 05-06-2000 12:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wmply Willow     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
I didn't enjoy the episode either, and before anyone asks yes I did understand it but I still thought it wasn't up to the usual standard but then again neither was the whole season.

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Joolie-XanderLover
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posted 05-06-2000 01:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joolie-XanderLover   Click Here to Email Joolie-XanderLover     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
No no MissMalkin - what I had posted the first time on this thread was about Xander and Anya and then I had to post again saying how silly I was because it wasn't in Restless it was in Primevial!

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Joolie-XanderLover
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posted 05-06-2000 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joolie-XanderLover   Click Here to Email Joolie-XanderLover     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Looking back on my posts Miss Malkin I said I "wondered" that was all - I think the only person who can work out what was going on is Joss Whedon himself!

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Missmalkin
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posted 05-06-2000 07:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missmalkin   Click Here to Email Missmalkin     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Joolie - you have got me so confused now I'm going to have a swig of Cat Nip - sorry no offence meant, Malkin is seldom naughty.

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Boris the Vampire
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posted 05-06-2000 07:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Boris the Vampire     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
The episode was great especially xanders dream, i also thought that Giles singing was hilarious

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Jen E
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posted 06-06-2000 08:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jen E     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by loubuzzer:
The Angel finale was much better.

Yep.

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RooBall
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posted 06-06-2000 09:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RooBall   Click Here to Email RooBall     Edit/Delete Message  19468063   Reply w/Quote
I have now watched far to much probably (which is about 6 times in 2 days..), possibly because it beats revision...and possibly because its one of the best episodes ever. In fact I might push the boat out a wee bit further and say it *is* the best episode ever. Ha. I said it...

Ah yes and the music was very good, especially in Xander's dream at the swings. Very appropriate methinks.

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Faith's Evil Twin
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posted 07-06-2000 02:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith's Evil Twin   Click Here to Email Faith's Evil Twin     Edit/Delete Message  4333230   Reply w/Quote

I loved the episode and see something new each time I watch it.

I think it's cool that Joss can write episodes as different as "Primevil" and "Restless" and that the producers of the show feel the audience will like both of them.

A quick comment and a couple of questions

Firstly - about Tara's real name. In fantasy books characters often have secret "real" names which must be used when casting spells upon them. Willow, it appears, knows Tara's "real" name - at least at some subconcious level. Ie she knows what Tara actually is, even if she won't admit it to herself. All this to come in S5 I guess!

Now, the people really important to each character seemed to appear to them when they were dreaming. It was cool to see Oz in Willow's dream, Xander's Dad and Giles's girlfriend. *But* - where was Jenny Calandar (no dead people in dreams?), Faith and *especially* _Angel_ in Buffy's dream?

Lastly - I forget exactly the shot in question but at one point there is a quick pan through Giles's house when the Scooby Gang (or most of them) are talking. One character, who has there back to the camera, has their shirt off and you can see ridges down their spine showing (IMHO) that they are some kind of demon. Can anybody work out who it is???

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Missmalkin
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posted 07-06-2000 01:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missmalkin   Click Here to Email Missmalkin     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Hi Faiths Evil Twin
I've wondered about that scene, the one in Xander dream where Giles and Buffy and Anya are watching Willow on the settee. Willow is convulsing.
Buffy says 'I can fight anything - should we slap her'
Which is funny. I think it reflects Xander not finding Giles available to help him with whatever is after him and the futility of their help anyway.
The ridges I think is Anyas top, which has frills on the front and one on the back, the effect does make her look strange.

As to the name I've heard lots of theories but I like the one that says the 'name'is the name of their relationship, they can't name it yet. Which ties in with the whole thing about Willow having a secret/not revealing her true self.

Rooball - me too!

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Joolie-XanderLover
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posted 07-06-2000 03:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joolie-XanderLover   Click Here to Email Joolie-XanderLover     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Right I will explain Miss Malkin.

My original posting was a mistake! I quoted a line which was said in "Primevial" not "Restless".

The second time I posted I apologised for posting to the wrong thread and then made a comment about Xander and Willows "flingette" that occurred in Season 3 and the fact that nothing has been mentioned about it since it occurred.

Funnily enough I belong to another posting group and someone in that group made exactly the same comment that I had about Willow and Xanders relationship.

Then I posted about the final eppy saying that the only person who knew exactly what was been said was Joss Whedon and he's keeping things pretty close to his chest.

Hope this clears up any confusion!

Did you enjoy your Catnip?

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Missmalkin
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posted 08-06-2000 12:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missmalkin   Click Here to Email Missmalkin     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
Mmmmmm Love the cat nip - any excuse me.
Pour yourself a glass.
Chears!

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Monnyjartin
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posted 08-06-2000 12:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Monnyjartin   Click Here to Email Monnyjartin     Edit/Delete Message     Reply w/Quote
i won't give my view on the eposide as i think you guys have summed it up? at first i thougth it was rubbish and after i have seen it again i still thinks its rubbish (better but still rubbish)

with referance to the chesse guy best i can offer there is Buffy likes cheese it is mentioned in S4 E7 when Riley is asking Willow the best way to ask buffy out on a date

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RooBall
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posted 08-06-2000 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RooBall   Click Here to Email RooBall     Edit/Delete Message  19468063   Reply w/Quote
Just a thought...

does Anya's: "It exactly like a greek tragedy, only we should all be greeks
in anyway make reference to the play (Oedipus Rex - a tragedy from Greece ) that they all did at the end of Season 1's Puppet Show?

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