| Justin says: |
what's up
|
| Jason says: |
I'm trying to remember who this is sorry lol
|
| Justin says: |
justin
|
| Justin says: |
or more aptly put,
|
| Justin says: |
jutsin
|
| Jason says: |
oh no way, really?
|
| Jason says: |
whats up man
|
| Justin says: |
yep
|
| Justin says: |
hehe sup
|
| Jason says: |
thought you said on the boards you had to leave er something
|
| Justin says: |
i do. i really do.
|
| Justin says: |
lol
|
| Jason says: |
heh addict eh?
|
| Justin says: |
i guess
|
| Jason says: |
I suppose addiction to discussion rather then dope is a good thing though right? O
|
| Justin says: |
LOL
|
| Justin says: |
yeh
|
| Justin says: |
it's just....
|
| Justin says: |
i dunno.
|
| Justin says: |
ARGH.
|
| Justin says: |
can't get myself to do anythign substantial no matter what
|
| Jason says: |
well hey, be glaad you can SPELL substantial, trust me thats more then most
|
| Justin says: |
haha
|
| Justin says: |
i almost mispelled it!
|
| Justin says: |
hahaha
|
| Jason says: |
haha
|
| Jason says: |
ya know, I think it's a litle insane that Fog Ghost made a site about him getting enaged heh... =/
|
| Justin says: |
hah
|
| Justin says: |
dunno
|
| Jason says: |
hey, did you ever get into the issue of pagan influence of the jewish and christian history?
|
| Justin says: |
no
|
| Justin says: |
that's moot, to me
|
| Justin says: |
because revelation comes to man, and it doesn't matter to me who it comes to first
|
| Jason says: |
hmm
|
| Justin says: |
actually, it makes more sense if the gentiles receive new stuff first, because it's like this:
|
| Justin says: |
well c.s. lewis put it like this
|
| Justin says: |
the gentiles had the image and the jews had the path
|
| Justin says: |
it's like night and day. the gentiles had the moon, and you're more receptive at night, that's why you dream.
|
| Justin says: |
and the jews had the day, which is like purpose and stuff, and you use the dreams you got during the night to do stuff, you don't stop to think about things
|
| Justin says: |
you know?
|
| Jason says: |
well, see what I've understand thus far though is the claims are that the 'event' of Jesus coming to die was so old before Jesus even came into being that people dying and rising from the dead was such a 'common' thing.. so atheists say that this just has to be coincidence or freakish coincidence that this ONE story was taken so seriously...
|
| Justin says: |
lol
|
| Jason says: |
which, I just recently got a book that goes over all of the greek and 'older' historical records of dying gods...
|
| Jason says: |
and there's a total of about.. 3 or 4 that seem convincing to me, that they were truly traditions the people believed in... but, according to some critique on the apologists sites, there's no WAY that some of the claims can be justified... I mean, it's totaly like some atheists are just making stuff up... but it's hard for me to accept that someone would DO that...
|
| Justin says: |
yeh
|
| Jason says: |
from my perspective, I'm truly trying to find out the truth, but hearing that people on such a serious subject would just MAKE stuff up.. like ok, all the gods supposedly were born of a virgin... Mithral (I think) who is a VERY popular god thats used in this argument was born out of a FREAKIN 'cosmic' egg, meteor, is how most scholar identify the word....
|
| Justin says: |
i think people are trying to find another way, or another explanation. Jesus was renowned not only for his resurrection but for what he taught and did and the love he showed, and all this that was carried over to his disciples.
|
| Jason says: |
and they say thats a virgin birth in direct relation to mary..
|
| Justin says: |
it was a whole movement, a whole loving union of people that changed the world
|
| Justin says: |
but isn't that mythology?
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| Justin says: |
did they come down among us, and did these events happen on earth?
|
| Jason says: |
some create the argument mythology WAS based on actualy events, or inspired by true events, and back in those times were of course embelished, but still based on people...
|
| Justin says: |
oh okay
|
| Justin says: |
well i think that's partly true, partly not, i dunno
|
| Justin says: |
i think mythology is mostly based on our imagination, on the spiritual embellishment of events. it's very real, just not real to us.
|
| Jason says: |
and even among the popular pagan influence debaters, they almost say that jesus couldnt have been real, OR was partly real as in mythology, but embelished because the idea of dying and rising gods was supposedly so wide known and accepted..
|
| Jason says: |
the problem though, what I've come across so far, is that there really isnt a story like Jesus'
|
| Justin says: |
EXACTLY!
|
| Justin says: |
nicely done
|
| Justin says: |
see
|
| Justin says: |
it's the story that's real to me
|
| Justin says: |
and that's what history is, a bunch of fables really
|
| Justin says: |
because time and culture changes so much and it just meld together in this big fantastic pot of events
|
| Justin says: |
like, ever read teh essay History by Emerson? i've been reading it.
|
| Jason says: |
no actually... afk quick my food is bubbling.. go on
|
| Justin says: |
okay lol
|
| Justin says: |
Jesus is the one who came to me. He's where all this Otherness and Spirituality started, so I'm sticking with Him.
|
| Justin says: |
and all this talk of other gods... they just lead up to his story and elaborate
|
| Justin says: |
it's all reflection, really
|
| Justin says: |
all throughout history
|
| Justin says: |
Jesus' blood has washed everything in history, everything
|
| Justin says: |
and we don't even see it. that's the amazing part
|
| Jason says: |
my dad, who was a struggling christian before I started to make my objections vocal to everything, said an interesting thing... he said, "who cares if it happened before him, people dyng and raising from the dead.. doesnt it say in acts that people came before him? it says it, and acknowledges it... but like the one guy said, "if it isnt of God, they will stop like all the others. So (my dad is a
|
| Jason says: |
big hosttory buff) look at history. It didnt stop!"
|
| Jason says: |
that hit me hard fer quite some time.. but didnt stop me from persuing still heh
|
| Justin says: |
exactly!
|
| Justin says: |
dude, i hope you come to the spot where you realize that all your 'searching' is a shot in the dark, and that you can't do it on your own.
|
| Justin says: |
i came to that place.
|
| Justin says: |
let me tell you an interesting dream.
|
| Jason says: |
k
|
| Justin says: |
you know when i was making all those discussions with you and the others? going on and on, well....
|
| Justin says: |
i came to the place where, well Francis Schaeffer calls it the Line of Despair, and it's basically where people give up finding an answer and get so confused that they just make up stuff that doesn't make sense
|
| Justin says: |
so i came to this place where my head was swimming in all this knowledge that i couldn't make out, because knowledge puffs up, and it was so dark, so dark, i didn't even know if God was real, or if he was impersonal, and i was walking along the street all grim and feeling down
|
| Justin says: |
that night i didn't go to minister with my parents because i was just so out of it. i got a book of postmodern poetry from the library and just lay down and fell asleep. that night, i had a dream. before i fell asleep i felt my future wife's spirit, and in the dream, my relatives were all gathered around
|
| Justin says: |
and they comforted me, especially my aunt. i had felt so desperate and out of touch, but when she touched me i was restored and felt better
|
| Justin says: |
so i woke up and i heard the words, as if they were immortal, "hope comes from other people.... and this is from the Hand of Life."
|
| Justin says: |
and i felt so peaceful and restored and spiritual, it was amazing
|
| Justin says: |
and then i had another dream not too long after.
|
| Jason says: |
man.. I.. I just cant allow things like that to persuade me. I need evidence... I dont know
|
| Justin says: |
i was on this building and me and this other kid were playing around and he fell into the trees below, so i went down to help him and fell to the ground, and then there were several of these crawling things like in Zelda and one came up the tree and swallowed him and crawled off again. i don't know if that had to do with anything, but next i went into this building
|
| Justin says: |
and i came in there and starting going to the different 'classes' and i was trying to tell people that we all needed to collaborate on something so that we could avoid disaster. and so i went around but no one would listen because some were busy and some were iffy and finally i came to this office
|
| Justin says: |
and i asked the guy, who was the principal or something, if i could have the key to the next room, so he gave me his pen and i unlocked it and gave it back, and i walked in.. and i think this might've been the room that symbolised modern christianity
|
| Justin says: |
anyways
|
| Jason says: |
hm
|
| Jason says: |
"and that you can't do it on your own." see, my own is all I have to allow myself to believe in something. I cant just.. not examine things and ASSUME that all of this is true.
|
| Jason says: |
and a lot of the religious experiences can be explained through realizing we get these 'experiences' discribed to us so often..
|
| Justin says: |
my dad was there debating with another guy, who was supposed to be my uncle and the room was real fancy with chess pieces and gold lining and nice wood, and it was huge. most of the people were little children. so i tried to tell my dad the plan and he just kept debating and debating until i couldn't hear anymore. and it was like a courtroom, and i think there was a judge. and so the dream
|
| Justin says: |
ended there, and i realized that i had to tell everyone before they went to class so we could talk together and then we could infiltrate, but if i tried to go to each "school of thought" it wouldn't work, see?
|
| Jason says: |
you have detailed dreams heh
|
| Justin says: |
hehe yep
|
| Jason says: |
there's so much more though to consider... it's just hard for me to let myself 'settle' with something that THUS FAR makes the most sense
|
| Jason says: |
cuz, well, i'm only 22
|
| Justin says: |
y'know, i like schaeffer, but one thing i disagree with him on: he criticized modern culture for just 'believing' but i think that's the essential thing. you don't need all these complex beliefs. believing that there is Truth is the main point/
|
| Justin says: |
hm
|
| Justin says: |
but you see, there's too much data, too many libraries, too many minds, too many souls
|
| Justin says: |
there's just far too much for many many lives collaborating, let alone one
|
| Justin says: |
we all have to desire the Truth first, that's the main point
|
| Justin says: |
so if you set people on fire to desire the Truth, then we'll get there much faster
|
| Jason says: |
so how do you know you've explored enough, learned enough to conclude whats absolutely true?
|
| Jason says: |
thats by far my main irritation..
|
| Justin says: |
i don't. haha, and that's the thing! i know what's true to me right now, as far as i can tell, and if the Truth presents itself in another way, then i'll follow that.
|
| Jason says: |
so, you live considering the possibility that Jesus could very well be a lie or a brilliantly fabricated lie, potentially? I mean... according to popular christianity, any doubt wieghs you towards sin doesnt it?
|
| Jason says: |
or at least doesnt encourage your relationship with Jesus
|
| Justin says: |
well see, these are the orders of my belief:
|
| Justin says: |
first, i believe in this otherness, this God-source which has invaded me from the outside
|
| Justin says: |
that has been with me since i was young and nurtured me.
|
| Justin says: |
i'm loyal to that and know that it's the Reality beyond everything because you just know. there's no way to doubt it. it's impossible
|
| Jason says: |
ok I really want to stop you there quick
|
| Justin says: |
okay
|
| Jason says: |
alright... so, can you really say you live by faith?
|
| Justin says: |
yes.
|
| Justin says: |
and i'm living more and more by faith as time goes on.
|
| Justin says: |
it's hard, but worth it, and exciting
|
| Jason says: |
can you identify to me.. how you KNOW you have faith?
|
| Justin says: |
i'm not sure i understand the question.
|
| Jason says: |
ok...
|
| Justin says: |
elaborate
|
| Jason says: |
see this is another problem of mine.. .I've never been able to understand faith
|
| Jason says: |
so, I try to understand how people identify that they have faith so I can try to understand if I still have it
|
| Justin says: |
oh!
|
| Jason says: |
when I was a serious believer, I tried to form an 'un picture' of God so I had SOMETHING to pray to, or assume was there..
|
| Justin says: |
faith is trust, and that might sound cliche, but it's true. so, i have trust in this Otherness, which is loving me and caring for me and will bring me to him/her/it
|
| Justin says: |
and will fulfill all of his promises
|
| Justin says: |
all the promises that i've felt and known and heard
|
| Jason says: |
trust in what? how do you identify what you have trust in?
|
| Justin says: |
well, i look at it this way
|
| Justin says: |
everything has a synthesis.. .everything revolves around a central core. we can't see that sometimes, just like we cant' see the world is round when we look at the horizon, but we've seen pictures of the round earth. well, that central core is like God
|
| Justin says: |
everything revolves around Him, expressed Him
|
| Justin says: |
and you have faith that EVERYTHING will eventually lead to him
|
| Jason says: |
that doesnt seem to really resolve the issue of trying to identify faith cuz... the bible makes it clear that without faith it's impossible to please god
|
| Jason says: |
so if tahts true, there has to be a way to identify ... I dont know lemme try to understand what you're saying heh
|
| Jason says: |
explain what you mean by everything revolves around a central core
|
| Justin says: |
okay, well
|
| Justin says: |
outer space shows how big God is, and those who explore it become more and more convinced of that. people show how loving and creative God is, and they often lead you to God one way or another.
|
| Justin says: |
everything good comes from God, everything that has energy and breathes and lives
|
| Justin says: |
the trees are rooted in the earth, the springs come up from the earth, the mountains come up from the earth, everything that lives and breathes thrives on it
|
| Justin says: |
and so, everything that is good, if you follow it to more and greater good,
|
| Justin says: |
will lead you to God.
|
| Jason says: |
phone heh on sec
|
| Justin says: |
okay
|
| Justin says: |
in other words, God's identity is the realization and the reality behind everything
|
| Justin says: |
EVERYTHING expresses God, and that's his identity. that's why he's called the I AM.
|
| Jason says: |
so in this, in deducing through all of the possible things lead back to a single event, or cause, you establish that the source or cause of it all is what you have a relationship with, or pray to?
|
| Justin says: |
exactly!
|
| Justin says: |
actually, i know that for sure.
|
| Jason says: |
man thats a jump for me..
|
| Justin says: |
because of the relationship, actually
|
| Justin says: |
it's not because of my belief
|
| Justin says: |
it's because of my contact with this Being
|
| Justin says: |
and really, it's a Be-ing, an entity of existence
|
| Justin says: |
outside the world that we know of
|
| Jason says: |
identifying that relationship is what I'm having trouble identifying though, or how he even (if he does) interact with the effects of his first cause
|
| Justin says: |
effects of his first cause?
|
| Jason says: |
see, everything that I experienced as a christian can be explained easily away when I examine it critically as natural causes to given circumstances.. they dont require an outside source..
|
| Justin says: |
eh?!
|
| Jason says: |
yah, we're the effect of him, was all I was saying, or assuming
|
| Justin says: |
sounds pretty complicated to me
|
| Justin says: |
okay
|
| Jason says: |
well, ok, for one example..
|
| Jason says: |
for about a week at a bible camp, people were experiencing God in an interesting way. It was a feeling of sorts, and the experience of being surrounded by light that 'felt like love' or God's spirit. I heard it over and over again all week, when one night in a deep prayer at the alter (wasnt CONCIOUSLY thinking of the other descriptions) I felt a few minutes of something incredible...
|
| Jason says: |
and I mean incredible, I cant doubt that it was something I wanted to remember..
|
| Jason says: |
I had tried to identify the experience, but really couldnt, I just knew I was experiencing an encounter of some sort. But the fact of the matter is that our minds can ultimately control every part of our body if given the chance...
|
| Justin says: |
yadda yadda go on
|
| Jason says: |
if you read up on the study of the brain telekenisis, it's very possible for the brain to do some extrordinary things
|
| Jason says: |
heh
|
| Jason says: |
I concluded it was the conditioning I received
|
| Jason says: |
and my mind made it happen
|
| Justin says: |
well that's a great conclusion, mr. scientist
|
| Justin says: |
i'm glad that you've made yourself into a robot
|
| Justin says: |
congratulations
|
| Jason says: |
in my heart I wasnt forcing it though, in my heart I was simply praying..
|
| Justin says: |
of course things are explainable by any means we want them to be. it's all subjective, dude. go into psychology and you'll see that we're not calculating machines. the more cool-headed logic, the more subtle the bias.
|
| Jason says: |
how do you convince yourself that your relationship with 'god' is real then?
|
| Justin says: |
for me, i know that this relationship is real. not only is it 10 times stronger than it used to be, but it confirms that it is real beyond belief, no matter if i believe it or not. and finally, my whole life makes sense, like total sense
|
| Justin says: |
this is the only thing that works for me, that's why
|
| Jason says: |
yah, wish mine made sense..
|
| Justin says: |
that's why i believe, becasue it works
|
| Justin says: |
EXACTLY!
|
| Justin says: |
you can go on for as long as you want trying to philosophize, but what's practical?
|
| Justin says: |
what leads you down the right path?
|
| Justin says: |
what strikes to your heart?
|
| Jason says: |
doesnt mean I have to settle though.. and dammit, I cant trust my heart. Feelings are relative and so fragile.. logic and fact dont change. Seems like a part of me just cant let go of needing evidence
|
| Jason says: |
I dont know, but I just cant allow myself to stop looking
|
| Justin says: |
well they should collaborate, and for me they do
|
| Justin says: |
what if your feelings and the facts were saying the same thing?
|
| Justin says: |
what if everything you perceived was saying the same thing?
|
| Jason says: |
I know my feelings wish I had a daddy up stairs that would give me the answers or a way to understand it all faster so I can actually make an informed decision
|
| Justin says: |
and does your logic contradict this? does it not give grounds for it?
|
| Justin says: |
i mean, look at the path i beat in your post. i just kept defending the point to death, and you can defend forever
|
| Justin says: |
but you have to settle down sometime.
|
| Jason says: |
my logic just says who am I to say that this is correct when there are men and women who have lived Islam as die hard as some christians have lived in their belief system...and *I* will never know all the objections to all possible evidence of all worldviews...
|
| Jason says: |
I need to go to college
|
| Justin says: |
you WILL never know.. that's the point.
|
| Justin says: |
heh
|
| Jason says: |
but how do you settle then? where do I go to get to the point where I can feel like I am making an accurate decision..
|
| Jason says: |
i think a part of me enjoys the challenge of this...
|
| Justin says: |
i guess you have to have burnout, like i did.
|
| Justin says: |
yep, that confirms it.
|
| Justin says: |
you just have to die to it, and dying isn't easy...
|
| Justin says: |
just keep going, man. you'll make it.
|
| Jason says: |
but my tears in my frustration show I'm hurting from it
|
| Jason says: |
was hurting.. I dont know, i think I've run out of tears over this issue
|
| Justin says: |
i know, it does hurt.
|
| Justin says: |
it's heartache.
|
| Justin says: |
your struggle will not end in nothing.
|
| Justin says: |
"ask and you will receive. seek and you will find. knock, and the door will be opened to you."
|
| Justin says: |
wise words.
|
| Jason says: |
hm.. yah I use to tell myself that verse all the time..
|
| Justin says: |
when will humanity ever learn? to stop looking for logic and toys and people and things and finally look for the Cause?
|
| Justin says: |
it's hard for us to learn
|
| Justin says: |
and i'm still learning, although i've learned many lessons
|
| Jason says: |
well... I thank you for your time man
|
| Justin says: |
sure, man!
|
| Justin says: |
i hope you got something out of it.
|
| Justin says: |
i poured out my heart
|
| Jason says: |
it's so damn hard to find people who enjoy this sort of dialogue
|
| Justin says: |
and now i gotta call amy
|
| Justin says: |
or she has to call me, rather
|
| Justin says: |
yes, i agree
|
| Justin says: |
i'm glad you're on this search, it really intrigues me
|
| Jason says: |
yah I always seem to come away with something whenever I talk to you...
|
| Justin says: |
yay!
|
| Justin says: |
good stuff!
|
| Justin says: |
okay well i'll talk to you later man
|
| Justin says: |
nice talking
|
| Jason says: |
you're blessed somehow, so, thanks again
|
| Justin says: |
hehe
|
| Jason says: |
yah you 2 later
|
| Justin says: |
i'm tellin ya, it's God!
|
| Justin says: |
later on!
|