Atheist-Christian Debates


Debate #22: "Religion is useful, even if it's not true."



Some atheists and agnostics don't mind Christianity. They find ways to interpret the religion without belief in any spiritual aspects of the religion. Hence the following arguments.

"Religion is a great piece of social engineering, a glue, that holds society together."

I guess even you can imagine what it would be like if there were no religions. People would be running around looting and mugging like crazy, because there'd be no moral standards.
Of course, that happens anyways, but not to such an extreme extent. But then also, religion causes wars and stuff. So I don't know how you could have a double standard like that, saying both that religion causes wars and that it holds society together. That's two different arguments. I think you probably think that Jesus was a regular human being who taught human beings to love and respect each other as human beings. But I can't imagine why you would give Jesus any respect or call him good or a good moral teacher. As an atheist, wouldn't you think more of a person who respects and shows reverence to all religious beliefs and doesn't condemn anyone? According to your beliefs, wouldn't that show more love and respect? Someone who doesn't make waves or preach `intolerance?' In your perspective, wouldn't that mean more peace? If this is so, how can you even consider the idea that Jesus is a good moral teacher of any sort? Clearly, he's either the son of God, or a teacher of amoral behavior(according to atheist sensibilities). But I follow Jesus as the son of God, as the ONLY way, truth and life. Following Jesus, I accept his doctrine of `intolerance,' asserting the rightness of his words and forsaking all others. (His words include the Torah, so this is the only other thing I do not forsake). Because of this, I have gotten chewed out by atheist `furs' at the kcfur group. Numerous times. Because I do not accept their doctrine of tolerance, I left them. Christmas was the most offensive time at the group, and I was criticized for what I wrote. I'm sure the good moral teacher that kcfur believes in would think of me as wrong minded and rude for stating what I believe, but I'm just following Jesus. The fact that you don't get all ticked off like those people at kcfur is amazing and baffling. I always thought that you would ascribe to the idea of "peace" that countless fur groups ascribe to-don't make waves by discussing politics or religion, except in those cases in which the religion is not Christian(in which case it would be okay according to their standards).

"Obviously, believing some myth holds societies together, but the particular myth isnt very important."

Oh really? So you wouldn't mind it if we had mound temples and Aztecs offering human sacrifices to the sun god? My point is: what do you define as `held together'? What is the difference between your concept of `held together' and institutionalized anarchy?

"Even though it's not true, religion is still good for advice."

You certainly must agree that not all religions are good for advice, or else you'd be engaging in some medically unsafe pygmy blood rituals. Even at the level of general religion, your point makes no sense. God is good for advice. While I'm glad you're getting something out of it, religion is more than just good advice. It's a matter of life and death, and if you were so heartily endorsing the `advice' of Christianity, you'd think nothing of preaching God's word in foreign countries where they cut off your head for your religious beliefs. Christianity gives that advice, after all.

"Christianity is only a set of ideals for moral behavior."

If that is true, why is there so much emphasis on believing in Jesus? Why is there forgiveness preached every Sunday when `one false move and you're going to hell' would provide a much stronger motivation to do good? Why do normal Christians struggle so hard to convince people that only cults tell people that `there's no hope of going to heaven if you don't lead a perfect life'? Certainly, cults like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are populated with individuals with exemplary moral behavior, but that's only because they've been threatened with being thrown into hell for the slightest offense. There are cults that even argue that you go to hell if you skip bible study to play a basketball game, or marry someone they don't recommend. Those `wonderful people' have no idea what Christianity is all about. Although we try to please God, to a certain extent we rely on the grace of Christ to cover our offenses. And that grace is not an ideal, it's a gift we don't have to do anything for. The only reason why we forgive others is because Christ forgave us. It's too simplistic to think of this as just a set of artificually assigned ideals.

"Focusing the mind on doing `right' is a good thing for the person and the society. If the idea of a perfect `God' serves as a way to focus the mind on doing this, I see nothing wrong with it."

That can't be done without the belief in God and following commandments. Worshipping God is a commandment. You can't please God - ever, if you don't believe in Him.

"The religion doesn't matter. Only the results count."

If you mean spiritual results, then that's true. Only the results count, not the religion. And the Judeo - Christian faith has all the good results. If you mean that physical results are all that matter, then the humanitarian acts of Christianity are notable, but I cannot agree with your circular argumentation ("only physical results count").

"That doesn't mean there isn't some good advice and philosophy in religions, I just believe that is all wrapped in candy and fear to make people pay attention to it, who would ordinarily not do so - for the very practical reason that following said advice is (or was) good for the societal structure of the time."

See above. We act freely out of the love of Christ, not out of a fear of hell. And the parable of the vineyard workers shows us that even the heavenly reward is going to be equal among people, so again it's voluntary love instead of bribery or threat. The best people in the bible challenged the societal structures of the time. Moses challenged the baal worshipping societal structure to tell people to worship THE God, Yahweh instead. Shadrach, Mesach and Abednigo, in a giant assembly of idol worshippers, stood up and refused to bow down to the idol. The societal structure of another country demanded that nobody pray to any god except the king's god(or maybe the king himself). But Daniel refused to worship that god, worshipping Yahweh, only. Jesus challenged the societal structure of the time, too. The problem is that people don't listen, even if you threaten or reward them. That's why you're an atheist.