Atheist-Christian Debates

Debate #23: "God is a no-show."

"And so in the matter of the envoys of the princes of Babylon, who had been sent to him to inquire about the sign that had been done in the land, God left him to himself, in order to try him and to know all that was in his heart(2 Chronicles 32:31)."

"Truly, thou art a God who hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Savior(Isaiah 45:15)."

"God is a no - show, or is on vacation. I want to see God in actuality and day to day sight."

Maybe what you call God's supposed "absence" is just God tiring of showing himself, of performing for human beings, maybe he just "felt" like showing himself in ways that weren't scientifically compelling. To say he hides himself to test us, maybe that is a little bit of a weak argument. Maybe He hides himself because of our sin. Or there might be a different Hebrew word that describes this "hiding" in a way that sounds less cowardly.
In the Old Testament, only the righteous could look at God and live. But in the New Testament, God inhabited a human body, Jesus, and so humans saw the face of God in him. But he looked human then. If you were to go back in time and look at Jesus, you'd think he was just an ordinary human being, and wouldn't be that impressed, if you didn't see him doing any miracles, that is. I think maybe you're thinking of God in terms that are too small.

The bible itself says, "No one has seen God, but Christ has made him known."
People have perceived the glory of God and the presence of God, and the angel of the Lord, but these things may be one and the same as Jesus.
Jesus is the word of God, and the glory of God, reflected from God.
Jesus is a part of God, that inhabited human form. See more about it in the childrens' sermon. We can see Jesus in Buck Toothed Bertha, even.
If you are pure in heart, you will see God.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God." If your heart is full of sin, you won't see Him.
When we take care of the needy, we are actually taking care of Christ.
When we see others, we see Christ.

"If God were so great, He would prove his existence to us instead of leaving us in the dark about the whole thing."

God doesn't need to prove Himself.
God has made His presence obvious enough. He has no desire to run it into the ground.
God doesn't exist for our benefit.

"Though I may have requested a personal `sign', I don't amount to much, so I kinda thought I said a general one (that could be examined by lots of skeptics) would be the most convincing- as well as most effective."

Then no sign would be convincing enough for you and your skeptics, not even if they saw the dead rise from the grave. Of that I am certain. But God never needs to stand up for himself or defend his own existence. He doesn't feel the need to prove himself to you or a crowd of hard nosed eggheads, and thus he disappoints you. I guess that's just too bad. I've heard that even signs from God are designed for direction, not to prove anything.

"If God were real, He would have already made an appearance and given all the answers we need."

God has made an appearance. Several, in fact. He appeared to Moses and the prophets, and he appeared in the form of Jesus.
In those appearances, God has given us all the answers we need for life. Just because He doesn't answer all questions doesn't mean He's not there to answer them.
God doesn't really answer questions as much as give us important instructions.
God finds it imprudent to answer all your deceptively worded questions. Jesus faced a few of those types of questions in his time, and he responded in parables.

Job 33 also describes how God "says something" to people. Job 33:14-18 talks about the method of God's communication. A long time ago, God told people not to murder. What do you think God should do? Go up to every murderer walking around today and repeat himself? "Hey, I told you this before. Don't murder." I believe if more people listened to God, if more people read his word, then he would say something new. When a person chooses not to read the bible, they're basically choosing not to listen to God. God's not going to say anything new until you're familiar with what's old. Kinda like how I put the new e-mail messages on the bottom of this file, so the old stuff could get taken care of first. You've got to be familiar with what he already said in order to get anything new out of Him. I'm not saying anything too awfully new. At least 25% of your questions have been things out of the bible that you could have known if you'd just sat down and read the bible. I don't think it's fair that people expect God or Christians to have to repeat what's in the bible to people when it's there in print already. It's like the people in the supermarket I work at. They came in and saw the label on a case of wine coolers and they thought the whole case cost $9.00. They never thought of looking inside the box or checking the shelf. Or it's like being sad and wailing about how `nobody e-mails you' when you don't bother to even get on the internet and check your inbox. To hear God, you must first stop talking. Then you must pray, then stop talking again, and read His word. Then He will talk to you. You can't hold a conversation with someone while you're running a jackhammer. When you talk so much, it's like the jackhammer is on. You can't hear God because you're drowning Him out. The agnostic sent me a CD of recordings of himself talking, for hours at a time. I could have responded a lot sooner, but he kept talking. I think he's doing the same thing with God, waiting for a response in the wrong avenue of communication, talking nonstop. And he doesn't wait and listen for a response, but just keeps repeating himself. I think God just didn't choose to communicate with him the way he would have liked. He didn't want to do it that way. Just like how I didn't choose to drive to his house and reply to his questions to his face. I didn't feel like driving over there. I could have, but I didn't.

"There is no way to know God's will - because He won't bother Himself to show up and answer questions."

Circular logic. "He doesn't show up and answer questions because he doesn't."
Circular logic again: "God is a no-show." You can't prove that God hasn't made an appearance in your life.
If you are pure in heart, you will see God.
The Holy Spirit reveals God's will.
Wait for God and He will answer you.
In order to get an answer, you must first ask God in prayer, then you must read the bible and think about what it says. God speaks to us through scripture. When I pray, then read a devotional or read from a random place in the bible, I get answers to many different things, or a direction for my life which I needed, but wasn't thinking about at the time.

"I'm sure I've done plenty wrong, but He has never shown any interest in lecturing me. Any real god would know that is what it would take in my case. Where is He?"

Right there where you are. You just haven't noticed Him. He knows what it takes in your case, and it is repitition of the same stuff you're already familiar with, because you're stubborn and don't want to accept it. He gives lectures to us all the time in the bible. To get other people interested in you, you must be interested in them. Maybe that's why God doesn't seem interested in you. You're still expecting God to drop out of the sky and talk to you in a loud booming voice. I believe if you just open up a bible, you will get a lecture from Him. Just let it fall open anywhere. Not all of it will apply to your own life, but try it again and you'll find stuff that's pretty close. If you don't believe in God, or you're wishy washy about it, you won't get much from God, though.

"The maker of EVERYTHING shouldnt have any trouble being a bit more direct and compassionate. He should make an appearance and lecture me."

He does, just not in a way that pleases you. Life isn't wholly focused on you. God wants you to know that.

"If God really cared about us, we'd at least get a daily soap opera from God."

Why do you need a "daily soap opera from God"? God isn't some sideshow performer that just sits around all day and says, "And for my next trick!" No, I don't believe God does that. I imagine it's quite easy for you to just sit there at your desk and go, "Show yourself, God! Do a neat, flashy trick for me!" I imagine you've done that before, and nothing happened. I believe that it's because God didn't want to do that. "You're my creation. I don't need to prove myself to you in that way."

"But Thomas got his proof, didnt he? Think how effective it would be today! Maybe God is on vacation."

Thomas never touched Jesus' wounds. He simply knelt down and said, "My Lord and my God!" And Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." Thomas realized what you don't. That he should not doubt Christ. If you do not believe in Jesus without seeing him, you will not be blessed. That's what the story is saying. He only got to see the ressurrected Jesus because he was to become an example for millions of believers. Signs are for direction, not to impress human beings. They are instructional, not entertainment.

"The Christian God is a God of Death - believers only see Him after they die."

Mary Magdaline and Peter were believers, and they saw God without dying. Of course, you could say that Jesus is the glory of God, so they didn't really look directly at God. It might be possible that no one has seen God directly, even Moses and others, since some translations say that he saw only the glory or the presence of God. So maybe we won't even directly look at God's face after we die. God is not a God of the dead, but the living(Matthew 22:32). Does this mean that God doesn't watch the souls of those who have died? Absolutely not. What it means is that all the dead people are made alive through Christ, and since they are living, God is a God of all of us living people. Another thing, Jesus said in the beatitudes, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God(Matthew 5:8)." It doesn't say "after death." It simply says, "they will see God." If you are pure in heart (which you must not be, or you wouldn't be arguing about this), then you will see God. "Jesus said to them, ‘Those who belong to this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are considered worthy of a place in that age and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. Indeed they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection. And the fact that the dead are raised Moses himself showed, in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive(Luke 20:34-38.)’"

"If God were real, he'd at least make an appearance and explain himself."

See above.
God doesn't need to explain Himself further. He does what He wants to do.
He doesn't need to cater to human will by explaining Himself.

"If God truly loved us, he would come down and lecture us instead of leaving us in the dark about the whole thing."

God has lectured us. God appeared to Moses at Mt. Sinai, lecturing him. Jesus appeared physically before people in Jerusalem and lectured the people. I don't believe God will make a dramatic appearance just so he can repeat Himself. But I believe Jesus will make a dramatic appearance when he returns from heaven.

"If God truly loved us, he would come down and prove himself to us."

God doesn't have to prove himself, especially when people already believe in Him. Jesus said that if you have a pure heart, you will see God. That's as close to proof as you're going to get. Matthew 16:1-4. Jesus didn't come to prove God's existence, he came to save us. Matthew 4, Matthew 12:38-42. And Jesus is still alive.

"Our belief is that our gods take an interest in, and appear on, this Earth (or something like that - paraphrasing, don'tcha know!)...The very thing I find wrong with God (and why it is so easy to believe He doesn't exist - and for goofballs of every type to invent religions and whacko interpretations) is that He doesnt seem to care enough to show up now and then. In the old religions, the gods took an active interest in daily life, and the great among us might even be so lucky as to see, or be favored by, one. (Or be destroyed by one, but I've mentioned that risk repeatedly.)"

You only think you don't see God, or are blind to His presence. John 9:41.

"How could God exist yet not be flaming obvious to all?"

Who says that God has to be obvious? Maybe God is flaming obvious, but you're just too dull to see Him.

"If He tapped me on the shoulder right now (any time actually!) and laid out the whole deal, I don't think lies would matter!"

You're assuming that He hasn't, because you're expecting Him in a specific way, and won't allow for the possibility of any other. He has tapped you on the shoulder. You just don't want to admit it, even to yourself. So lies don't matter.

"`God has a plan for me?' If so, He is keeping it a secret pretty well! Maybe I have the wrong slant on things, but knowing the rules of a game make playing it a lot easier."

There's no secret. It's plain as day, if you noticed what God was doing around you. Instructions? Rules of the game? That's what the bible's for.

"There was speculation in the 70's that some time between the Old and New Testaments, there was a small change in mankind's brain that resulted in a more completely integrated personality. If true, it could explain why prophesy and hearing voices, seeing visions (angels, etc.) `suddenly' diminished."

That's speculation.
If it's true, then it's possible that it means God is changing us, what can be perceived as `evolution' to some.
Jesus said that he gave us the Holy Spirit, which he called the Counselor. Counselors try to integrate people's personalities. Perhaps it's not a diminishment, but an enhancement.