It was difficult to give a good descriptive title for this section, since it is not the same as debates about the afterlife, even though the afterlife is involved, and it's not the same as the `I don't need religion' arguments. But the primary topic is salvation, or being saved, so this is what will be addressed here.
Me: "The afterlife is a powerful persuasive tool. But I believe sometimes the carrot is just handed to you, instead of being dangled in front of your nose."
Agnostic: "But then, there is no chase; no appreciation. `Give a man a fish,...' A free carrot is like welfare. But this is a bad example. A presented carrot is not life - changingly, mind - bendingly awesome like the certain existance of God and Heaven and Hell."
See above. I suppose there isn't a punishment. It won't be rewarding, and you won't feel as good about it, and your journey to salvation will be a lonelier one, but I suppose there's no law that says you must. I think that there wouldn't be a penalty (you won't go to hell, you may not even lose that unconverted friend). It's SORT OF like a football game. Just because you've got benchwarmers on the team doesn't mean the team is going to lose. I feel that God swaps people in and out of the conversion(not out of life, of course), and that God can make new team members if the whole team is benchwarming that session. Obviously, he can't trade them to other teams, and he can't fire any players on his team, but he can retire them. And perhaps the penalty, then, is to be put in a lousy position. Like in baseball, they put you in the outfield if you stink at the game. And, like in art classes or craft classes, some kids don't get it, and they have to either be walked through it, or if they are really incompetent, the teacher does their assignment for them. If you think about conversion in these terms, one has to either humbly accept the assignment and do it, or be humiliated. Humiliated is not the same as being condemned to hell. It just means you'll probably feel jealous of other people who got a better reward than you...or maybe feel jealous that they got more converts than you. Of course, this wouldn't spoil heaven, because we all get the same unimaginably good reward for our efforts (at the very least, "believing" - I suppose that belief is a work (though not the only work one can do)). I dunno. The more I read, the more it seems like I don't have to do anything...certainly logical in terms of salvation and heaven, but it makes no sense when talking about converting people.
"I couldn't do a deathbed conversion. True, I've never been battlefield-close to death, but I have twice been sick enough that I wondered about surviving the next hour. Appealing to God at such a time, after a lifetime of ignoring Him, would be disgusting and pathetic, and I wouldnt again trust the sincerity of anyone who did it."
Heaven and hell are appropriate for individuals that God has given godlike power to, (such as the power to take away life-results from the tree of knowledge, though this is not the only power). It shows us that while we may have power over animals and people, God has power over us still. While we may control the atomic bomb in some degree, God has control over the spirits of the people who made the bomb. The atheist says it's unrealistic for God to forgive and let a foxhole converter go to heaven. The problem is that you view God as being too human. If you read the bible, you'd know how seemingly `unfair' the whole heaven thing is. In the story of the prodigal son(Luke 15:11-32), there is the `good son' and the `bad(prodigal) son.' In this story, the good son(which represents the steadfast believer), is given the short end of the stick. His brother(representing the unbelieving sinner), practically spits in his father's face, blows his inheritance on booze and women, and still gets accepted back in his father's house, practically rewarded for it. Luke 11:25-32 describes how, understandably, the good son is outraged. The prodigal son practically had a foxhole conversion. So, a Buddhist, on his deathbed, could call out to Jesus and still go to heaven, even though he probably rejected Jesus his whole life. The requirements for salvation are in John 3. Again, the foxhole converter can be found in the parable of the vineyard workers(Matthew 20:1-16). Here we see the workers who got to the vineyard to work on time(the dedicated Christian believer) get paid just the same as the ones who show up at the last minute(foxhole conversion). Clearly, timing doesn't matter. So, if you were about to die, and you called out to Jesus, you'd be saved, even if you were an atheist all your life.
"I'm a good person. If heaven exists, and if I keep living a good, respectable life, my place in heaven is assured."
Salvation, if aquired by perfection, requires not only for you to do physical good deeds, but it also requires a pure thought life. If you contemplate sinning, it's just as bad as doing it. To someone who doesn't believe in God, that seems to make sense. But from a God believing perspective, you have to recognize that, while you may appear perfect before other human beings, there is still an issue of your relationship with God. You have to believe in God to believe in Jesus as the son of God, and if you don't believe those things, you won't go to heaven, no matter what good things you do in the sight of other people. You comfort yourself by imagining God will think it's okay if you ignore half the commandments (i.e. anything not related to human interpersonal relationships) but your lack of respect for Yahweh will end up being your downfall. Between idolatry and all the other commandments regarding the honor of God, very few, if any, can actually qualify for heaven without some outside help. This help comes to us by Jesus, who, sacrificed himself to fulfill special commandments, which free all of us of our sin, allowing us to go to heaven. Without faith in Jesus, you're still going to hell. You wouldn't want to do surgery on your own brain, or face even the lamest football team singlehandedly. So why try to save yourself and gain your own salvation? It's impossible. Romans 4:1-12 indicates that faith is reckoned as a righteous deed.
"Salvation is their choice, not God's."
Oversimplification. You are arguing "either-or" when you should be viewing it as both. While the individual chooses whether or not they accept salvation, God is the judge and the provider of salvation.
"If someone is saved, whose choice was it: that of the saved person, or of God?"
This is a trick question. The idea this person wishes to argue is: "God chooses who He wants to save beforehand, so we need not worry about believing anything." This is also an oversimplification of a compound issue. Salvation is not merely the choice or action of one or the other, but of both. It's a mutual activity. God provided salvation to all human beings through Christ, and makes the final decision concerning the fate of the soul, but human beings make the choice of whether or not to accept the salvation God gives.
"Would a loving God really leave some people unsaved?"
This is an addition to the previous trick question about salvation. Basically, it builds a circular argument on the premise that "God saves, so we don't have to do believe to be saved." Again, as stated before, the individual cannot reject God's gift of salvation, or they will not be saved, even though God makes the final decision about their immortal soul, and even though God provides salvation to begin with. "Why doesn't God brainwash them into accepting His salvation?" This has been answered before. When you boil this trick question down to its major point, it's identical to the argument about "how can a loving God throw people into hell?"
"Your goal is to `Bring everybody you know to Christ?'...Laudable, but what about the BILLIONS remaining?"
There is a hymn that talks about that. "I can tell one, what Jesus has done, I can tell two, what Jesus can do, I can't tell the whole world, but I can tell two, what Jesus can do. That two can tell four, that four can tell more...one by one, two by two, we can tell the whole world what Jesus can do..."
"If God chose to save one person (or group of people), and not to save all people, then there is no way for that person (or for anyone in the group) to know that they are saved."
This argument is based solely on the premise that "we don't really know what religion is true." I believe my religion is true, so that is irrelevant to this discussion. If you believe in the bible as the word of God and the only religious truth, there is no question about who is saved. Believers know they are saved if they believe what the bible says. "We are saved if we believe in Christ," the bible teaches us. A Christian says, "Okay, then I'm saved." But an unbeliever, like the one who wrote this objection, doesn't believe in the bible, so, out of his prejudice against religion, he thinks "we don't know." Salvation belongs to whoever believes in Christ as their savior, and before Jesus, salvation belonged to all who repented and offered sacrifices for their sins. No person is perfect enough to get to heaven on their own merit, aside from Jesus.
"If the person is saved because of something that they did,
e.g., confess their transgressions, or have sufficient faith, or 'turn their
life over to God,' etc., then how do they know that they have done their
'work' sufficiently to merit God's salvation?"
Another trick question. The unbeliever just cannot fathom the idea that it is not "either-or" but both. Now that the unbeliever has finished with the "God saves us, so we don't have to believe" argument, the unbeliever is now trying to demolish the rest of the concept of salvation by building a circular argument on the premise that "man saves himself, God does nothing."
We don't `merit' God's salvation. We just accept it, by believing. If you believe in the bible, and believe in Jesus as your savior, you know you are saved.
"Were the souls of the pre-Jesus people disposable? Or did those people not have any? What about those people who have died up to the present, who haven't heard of Jesus?"
All humans have souls. I believe unbelievers have souls. I believe you have a soul, but you've heard of Jesus already. The bible says that people who have never heard of Jesus are a law unto themselves, that God judges them differently. But the word of Jesus has been shared with countless cultures and countries already, so most are unexcusable. Those people who haven't heard of him are in very far off, remote areas, mostly without indoor plumbing.
"`Good works don't get you into heaven? Faith does?' If so, Heaven will be a lonely place. Assuming 200 religions, and assuming you mean faith in your religion (and sect), only 1/2 of 1 % of the world's believers have a chance."
"How many are in your group? How many have really unshakable faith? Maybe `The 700 Club' was being optimistic about the number of people who will be in heaven!"
See above. It's not a matter of faith strength. Jesus said if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can move a mountain from here to there, in other words, you can do miracles and be saved with very little faith. So, it doesn't take an unshakable faith in Jesus to be saved. But it does take some faith. Most Christians I know, I'm sure, have doubts and misgivings about Jesus, but nobody's perfect. I'm not perfect either. I have doubts. My faith is very tiny. Sometimes I go to work and I think to myself, "Where is God?" So no, you don't have to be a super faith filled person, because I'm not!