Basically a waste of time, the following are arguments which show a lack of biblical readership.
"Except for living by the Book to avoid Hell, there isn't much before Jesus that is a positive reason to have anything to do with it."
Exactly. Before Jesus, there wasn't any reason for people like me to worship Yahweh. You see, if you're perfect, then you'd enjoy living by the Book, and it would be out of love towards God, not the fear of hell, that you'd obey it. Christianity is only for sinners. That's why I'm a Christian. Jesus makes us perfect. There's no condemnation for those who believe in Christ, the son of God.
"What happened to all those people who died before Jesus? Did God just throw them into hell and leave them there?"
Jesus went to `free the souls in prison,' or went into hell to rescue the souls of the people who died before he was born. I don't know who he saved, whether it was all of them or just those who called to him, but he saved people who came before him, all the way back to Adam.
"I am not my brother's keeper!"
What's so ridiculous about this argument is the fact that it was said by Cain after he slew Abel, his brother. Cain knew exactly where his brother was. He put him in the ground after murdering him. When he said, "am I my brother's keeper?" he was implying that he had no responsibility for his brother, even though he murdered him. On a more practical level, you are definitely responsible for your blood relatives, which predicates your brother, if you have one. You have to at least take care of him a little bit. But you are also responsible for your `brothers' in the world, the homeless, the poor, the needy. Like it or not, when you have food and shelter and money, and you see a man freezing out in the cold, sleeping in a cardboard box, and leave him like that, you are responsible for his death if you don't do anything to help him. Dance around the issue all you want, but you are your brother's keeper.
"The Psalms, Proverbs, the Gospel...that's all part of a bible of a religion that is separate from Judaism."
Psalms are in the Old Testament. Read your bible, son. I replied to the rest of this objection in the contradiction section.
"Why doesn't God drop by an wave hi?"
He does. If you are pure in heart, you will feel subtle hints of God's presence.
"The world would be a lot better, with a lot less fighting, if Jesus actually put his junior secretaries to work."
This is a silly point to be arguing, for the following reasons:
A junior secretary of Christ hears his voice and obeys him. Those who don't do that don't have the `credentials,' and we know they're liars by their deeds. That's why there's no penalty, because it's easy to see through the bad ones. You'd be dense to think there's a veil covering that stuff up, unless you're imagining something that's not there, a skeleton in the closet, only because you don't know that one is there, an ad ignorantum fallacy. If they don't do what Jesus commands, they're not working for the company, so that's how God controls his employees.
(The agnostic sent me a sound file of someone reading off a list of Old Testament commandments from Leviticus or something) "As in the sound file, you are scripturally commanded to stone every blasphemer, and join Rev. Phelps in stoning homos, too - and yourself if you wear cotton - poly - blend fabrics."
It is here that I discovered that the agnostic hadn't bothered to do his homework on Christianity before commenting on it. Instead of studying the New Testament and other chapters in the Old Testament to see why some of these commandments don't need to be enforced, he just plows along and assumes things. His argument sounds non-messianic Jewish to me. The people in the sound file ask questions based on the Old Testament rules, when Jesus came and forgave people, and said, "If you have no sin, come and cast the first stone (i.e. no one would be able to do that except Jesus, who didn't do it, either)." Jesus came and said that the two greatest commandments were to love your fellow human being and love God with your whole heart. He declared that all foods were clean because you merely excrete it anyway - purity of your heart should be the important thing. The clothing and eyeglass thing is similar - your heart should be the focus. Moses made some laws because of the stubbornness of the people. The big ones that really needed to be followed were given by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai. All the other laws follow from those laws.
"If the Garden Of Eden began everything, it seems odd that a few remembered it, and the vast majority didnt. To me, it seems God's Truth would be sufficiently powerful and important to not be forgotten."
Eden is not `God's Truth.' It is just a place. It is merely God's creation. If we remembered it, we'd try to go back there, and we've been kicked out. We're not supposed to go back. There was a cherubim with a flaming sword keeping Adam out of there. We don't remember it for a reason. Heaven is the new Eden, though. We look forward to a future there, in the new Eden, not the old one.
Me: "Christ said to let your light shine before men. We are the light of the world.
Agnostic: I just learned something! I was taught that Jesus is the Light of the world."
Yes, Jesus is the light of the world. But through Christ, we are also the light of the world. Christians are "little Christs.' You have not e-mailed (prayed to) Jesus, but you e-mail me. If Christ is truly working through me, you will see Jesus in me.
"If people are to be remade into more glorified forms, this implies that they will be like Adam (created in God's image)"
Adam before the fall. Yes.
"A sect rejects any changes to The Good Book. You have stated things similar...so are you allowed to interpret/add to the Bible?"
Interpret, yes. Add to it? No. Extrapolate from it, yes.
"If people are to be remade into more glorified forms, these new creatures will live forever, here."
Maybe, maybe not. The earth will be remade, so it won't be the same thing you're sitting in now.
"What do the Catholics say about Hell?"
Same thing. But they've got the purgatory idea, which isn't even in the bible. They make the distinction between mortal and venial sins. I suppose they say that Hitler and other murderers cannot be saved because they committed mortal sins, so can't be forgiven. I'm sure there's a confession and an act of penance involved here somewhere, since I think there are Catholic prison ministries, but outside that, it's basically the same attitude you've expressed. "They deserve to be smothered in their cribs."
"If we get remade in the image of Christ, these new beings won't be `men'."
And your point is? We'll be like Jesus. We'll be remade in the image of the glorified Christ. Perhaps we will be like angels, or merely like a beautiful human being, which would entail men. I don't know for sure, but it really doesn't matter anyway. By that time, it will all become clear.
"The followers of Apollos tell a story about him that almost duplicates that of Jesus." Apollos was a follower of Christ. If he's the same guy you're talking about, he's in the bible. How could he get famous if he's advertising Jesus?
"Moses wasn't allowed into the promised land. Where's the forgiveness?"
You're confusing the promised land with heaven, I think. Besides, you're in the wrong book. Forgiveness comes later in the New Testament. Forgiveness in the Old Testament requires animal sacrifices. The New Testament has the Jesus sacrifice.
"So, `Adam was created in the image of God.' But if he lived forever in the Garden of Eden, then he wouldn't have been able to go to Heaven."
I've heard some say that Adam would have died even if he hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge. But even if that's not true, he didn't need to go to heaven, since Eden was heaven for him. The heaven we look forward to will be like a revisitation of Eden.
"If Adam was the first man, we are no longer `men', because we can't live in the Garden of Eden or live forever"
Totally ridiculous. Yes, the image of God we were to reflect was corrupted by Adam and his descendents' sin, but that doesn't mean that we're not human, or that men aren't men and women aren't women. Your assumption isn't based on any scriptural principle. Manhood isn't negated by the absence of either. People are still called `men' even after Eden, and besides, we can live forever through Christ.
"Jesus didn't accomplish much if people were still going around and murdering at places like Jehricho."
The walls of Jehricho were before Jesus. Jesus brought love, peace and forgiveness. He certainly wouldn't want people to go to war. His teaching does away with that. He taught people not to value wealth and property, so there'd be no need to fight for it. He taught people to love the people who enslaved them, who tortured them. To show love gives the captors a change of heart.
"`Jesus is the way'? Not for those who lived and died before Jesus! Not for those who never heard of Him."
Jesus went into hell to save all those who died before Jesus was born. And it's the Christian interpretation that all the old testament heroes, kings and prophets, if they were truly holy individuals, recognized their own sin, and looked forward to the coming of Christ, longed for the coming of Christ, and served God intensely because of that longing. And God rewarded them for that.
"So Heaven welcomes the unsuccessful and the un-churched? I wonder what your Pastor would say about that!"
He'd probably agree. The unbiblical idea ("the unsuccessful and unchurched go to hell") you are arguing here is so popular in our society that he'd never need to threaten people to come to church. In fact, he actually needs to calm people down about the whole thing. It's people like bad Youth For Christ camp counselors that read too far into the bible and try to argue that you have to be successful at converting people to go to heaven. Jesus is the important thing, not the church. You can worship Jesus anywhere. If unchurched people found Jesus on their own, "more power to them." They're going to heaven.
"`All Christians are considered `Junior secretaries' of Jesus?' Not good enough, because anyone can claim to be one, and there is no `instant' penalty for lying about it. Impersonating an officer or other official is taken seriously by the government, but God doesn't seem to mind a world full of fakes. And seem is all I've got to go on, because I can't see `beyond the veil' to find out which ones are frauds. Maybe I should have requested a `Vice President in Charge of Public Relations', instead of...no, that won't do either - the VPiCoPR is probably the Pope or the Cardinals - and I don't trust them either! (I'd give them the bird! (P-U, old joke, but what did you expect?!))"