The following are either statements that the agnostic person tried to use against religion, but ended up supporting it or provoking interesting theological discussions instead, arguments that I could turn around in a positive Christian manner, and arguments sent to him by Christian correspondents, which, for some strange reason, he forwarded to me. Sometimes, also, these are times when I personally have had a doubt, and the agnostic suggested something that actually helped me improve my spiritual life. I say `accidentally' because it seems to be an inadvertant slip on the part of the atheist, to suddenly start arguing for theism.
"Scientists can try to figure out what happened, but why is beyond knowing. Accept that, and get on with life."
That tells me something right there. If you want the "what," go to science. If you want the "why," seek God!
"If they're secure in their faith, why are they threatened by theories of evolution?"
You might have a point there. From what I've heard, the bible cannot be disproven, only people's theories about it, like the geocentric universe and Diluvialism. Evolution is only a theory. So you're right. It shouldn't be a big deal.
"All belief systems cannot be simultaneously correct, except to the Hindus. But that seems uselessly vague, so I see no value or understanding comming from Hinduism - only acceptance of everything. That seems just like atheism to me!"
Huh. I know `nutzing about Hinduism, so I can't tell you.
"Seems to me that God has very little real need for stonings, swords, and suicide bombers."
Indeed. All of that is a thing of the past.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
Ah, so you believe in God, then. After all, `absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.' We don't have evidence of the resurrected Jesus, but since `absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,' that isn't a problem.
"Just because it says so (or says not) in a book- one of many? Yeah, that proves it all right. Proves God exists and is a mighty nice guy who just happened to create the entire mystery - and - majesty-filled Universe!"
I'm glad you agree.
"Why would it matter what you think of the value of others? If Jesus saves, your input on the matter is not likely to be sought!"
So you're saying that Jesus saves people, regardless of whether I pray for them or not? That's interesting. It won't stop me from praying for people like you, but it makes me wonder...
"It seems to me that thinking ill or well of others is important only in this world, because it is hard to get along with people you despise or idolize- a very non-religious concern."
I suppose that makes a lot of sense. Prayers are given to God to be answered, answers not under any mental control of ours. It's certainly benevolent of Him to give people the spiritual and physical things they need, regardless of our wishes for them, good or ill.
"Belonging to a church should be looked upon as membership in a `social club.' Didn't Jesus say a physical church isn't required? Holding meetings might make fellowship easier and more fulfilling, but that could be done in the city park! If you want a building, realize there will be bills to pay - end of story. If it were really God's house, it wouldnt need lights and heat or vacuuming - it wouldn't wear out or fall in. It is just a bunch of very mundane sticks."
If you define a `social club' as a group of friendly people who get together, then yes, I agree completely. I also agree with your other points. A church is a group of Christians, not a building.
"What fun does is hasten me to the end of my life. Work, on the other hand, shows you how much life you have."
True.
"Not that I think the atheist with a case before the Supreme Court is right either. (Isn't it clever of them to always say `before' the Supreme Court? `Humble yourself before the King's Court, knave!' Subtle.) The nut claims `Under God' violates the Constitution by Establishing a State Religion. Oh please."
I agree to that.
"I don't understand it. If God (the Creator of Everything) exists, `closer' wouldnt begin to be adequate - it would have to consume every second of one's life. Odd to say it of those everyone considers crazy fanatics, but I have to agree with the Moslems on this. If God exists, nothing else matters - nothing!"
Maybe you're right. That's why I constantly confess my sin. Because I too often think that other things are more important or more worthy of my attention.
"`Words are unimportant?' I thought your belief that God exists and Jesus is still alive, etc., was pretty well glued in. It seems to me that you do need words for some reason."
Indeed. And you also need words.
"Things like writing and art take time - and leisure, and primitive man didn't have much of that. If `modern man' still had to worry every second about freezing, starving, or being eaten, the arts would have very little priority."
That means that primitive man could have actually been smarter than what we originally thought! If that's true, then there's no reason why that creature couldn't be either Adam or a descendant. Judaism began with `Oral Torah.' Perhaps this `Oral Torah' began here.
"Parts and features of human beings are present in other animals. Squirrels and raccoons have reasonably dexterous `hands', monkeys and (kanga)roos can get along on two feet, leaving their hands free, and even without hands, birds build nests and some use tools. Several types of birds can talk, and hummingbirds (with the smallest brain of any bird) compose and recognize intricate songs- as do whales. Size or form doesn't matter much - it is that our larger brain provides room for them all, and has a larger percentage of prefrontal cortex than any other animal, to manage everything and express abstract thoughts."
Well, we are "fearfully and wonderfully made"!
"`The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it(John 1:5).' ...This must be a resident of metaphor city, because physics-wise, the dark winning is impossible. Energy cannot be destroyed. It is kinda like the idea of a `reverse microwave oven' that makes things cold. Under special conditions (Bose-Einstein Condensates), lasers can be used to cool a small number of identical atoms that are already in a very cold state, but un-nuking a burrito doesn't work."
Aha! A further clue that the darkness of the world cannot overcome the light of Christ! Thanks!
"The photons from that tiny light can reach to another world! And in this one, a cat or owl might find that tiny light perfectly adequate! And wouldn't the pure soul need even less light to see the true path?"
Yeah, but I'm not Christ.
Me: "Grown adults in my congregation do all the little stupid hand motions..."
Agnostic: "It certainly wouldnt look out of place in a Black church. And how about the `Holy Rollers'? If they dig it, what's the problem? Think God will be insulted or embarassed? I doubt it!"
Good point.
Me: "Yes, the bible says "Unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven(Matthew 18:3).'"
Agnostic: "You mean some take that seriously? Obviously another resident of Metaphor City, and an easily understood one, too."
Some don't understand it to mean `childlike faith.'
"Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; be babes in evil, but in thinking be mature(1 Corinthians 14:20).' ...Some serious cruelty is found on playgrounds."
Exactly. That's why it says, `Be babes in evil.'
"`The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light...(Matthew 4:16, Isaiah 42:6).' Sounds good, but the situation matters. I wouldn't like to see a great light while struggling for footing atop a cliff. Just a nice little steady one, please!"
Interesting. Perhaps that is why we seem to have less light in certain situations.
Me: "`Hide it under a bushel - no.' Here a person cups their hand over their tiny index finger, and then exposes it. I don't know what a bushel is, but if you put a candle under a bush or a bed, it'll burn and eventually catch fire."
Agnostic: "I'm pretty sure it means a bushel basket. They are large enough to hide a candle without burning- especially the old ones, which unlike the new ones, were taller than wide. I assume it has two meanings: the obvious hiding of the candle light inside a nearly opaque basket (they had a very tight weave to hold in grain), and possibly also the idea of hiding something in an unlikely place, in `plain sight'. Guessing about their interest in that last part though."
Well, if you share your faith with some people, they won't see the light of Christ in you, even if it's in their face. But eventually, they will go, "Oh! I see it!" So, I doubt it would be like the Purloined Letter.
Me: "But with this hand motion (`hide it under a bushel - no!'), it seems like you're taking one of those metal acolyte tools and placing it over the candle, which would automatically extinguish it."
Agnostic: "Not so automatically! Too low and the candle is smooshed, not low enough, for long enough, and it re-ignites. Embarassing! But more to the point, unless you know someone with a 10 gallon hand, it will of course look snuffingly small."
So, the light of Christ can survive the bushel. Interesting.
Me: "`Won't let Satan blow it out.' Another statement about the supposed feebleness of Christ's light. While John 1:5 states that the darkness cannot overcome the light, this song is telling you that Satan can blow out the light of Christ."
Agnostic: "I wonder. Are you saying that all of your parishoners would look upon a mass murderer like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc., and say `Halaloooya! The light of Christ shines brightly in you, pal! How about a hug?!' Surely this refers to one's personal light, and who amongst the Chosen doesn't (occasionally?) think in some sinners, it was deliberately self-extinguished long ago? Or in athiests, wasn't ever there?"
If it's there, it can't be extinguished. But you're on to something. The light of Christ perhaps wasn't (or was only temporarily) present in Stalin and Mao and Hitler's hearts. They either let go of it or never had it. You receive the light of Christ into your heart, so we all start out without the light of Christ in our hearts. I think it's one and the same as the `seed' that Jesus talks about in his `sowing' parables. So, God sows the seed of Christ's light in our hearts, but it won't always grow in everyone.
Me: "Despite these horrible song lyrics, this big, 5 Million K light source from God will never fizzle out."
Agnostic: "The sun? Thinking a bit too literally, and certainly too small!"
Interesting. That pretty much blows the wax candle analogy out of the water, then!
Agnostic: "If the light is your personal relationship with Jesus, that is a bit shakier, but over the whole population of believers, the entire religion would have to be extinguished, and that is very unlikely to happen."
Odd of the person to argue this when they later argue that all religions have their rise and fall! But it's not a matter of extinguishing, but of a person letting go of the light. You can't extinguish Christ.
"If Christ is such a brilliant light, it sorta seems a little piece of sun would very dramatically burn up any heretics and blasphemers quite effectively."
That's a good point. If heretics and blasphemers got exposed to the light of Christ, they'd be `burnt up(metaphorically),' and no longer be heretics or blasphemers.
"Imagining how to make the world better is OK if your improvement is a better mousetrap - that is...something simple, concrete - easy. Trying to imagine Heaven by extending what you know into something bigger and better is as useless and impossible as what I think about. Can you spell a b s u r d ? Learn to."
I guess you have a point. We can't imagine what heaven is like. The bible says that the things of this world won't even come to mind.
Me: "At work, when I have nothing to do, when I have to do menial work, when I'm tired, depressed and lonely, I feel like giving up Christianity."
Agnostic: "Huh? I thought those were the situations with which it was supposed to help you cope! Even I don't think those are good reasons to give it up."
Wow. Now who was the faithful one in this situation?
"Who knows how many times Adam refused to filch the fruit. We don't know how many lifeless universes preceeded this one, or how many billion - billion - billion lifeless solar systems there are for every one where life exists - or on how many billionths of those, life gets smart enough to wonder about it! If God created the universe and life, life should be everywhere because: He practiced before us (or improved on Adam for the next place); or because we are such excellent copies (being made in His image), more would be a natural. Just here makes no sense."
Interesting point. This is just speculation, so you might be correct. But you also might be wrong. After all, God is so perfect that it might be possible that He was able to do things perfectly the first time He does them.
"I suppose the snake-handling (of these cults) prove they can tame the devil or something. It seems stupid to me. Snakes aren't devils any more than are black cats, and I'll bet they get bitten more often than zoo or laboratory snake handlers."
While Satan did appear in the garden of Eden as a serpent, and while a sign of a disciple's power was the ability to handle snakes without being harmed, you're right. A snake is just an animal. They're dangerous sometimes, but they're not Satanic. They're only evil in symbolic terms. And these cults with their snake handling is a bit unneccessary.
Me: "Will heaven be nothing more than a dream created by the mind, filled with strangely behaving strangers we meet and don't acknowledge on the street? I have dreamed of friends and movie stars talking to me in strange ways like this. Will I see the flat people from photographs speaking to me?"
Agnostic: "I have those dreams too, but nearly everyone ignores me regardless of what I do. Sort of like a ghost, having no effect on anything. Not my idea of Heaven. More like insanity. I expect consistant physical rules and behaviour - not Alice In Wonderland."
You're right. That would be a little bizarre for heaven to be like. In heaven, there has to be consistent rules, like we have here on earth. You're right.
"God is not done creating us yet."
Good point. I think that's also true. We still await the time when our bodies will become perfect like Christ in his second coming. I think he works in everyone, recreates everyone through Jesus, and that what you call "imperfection," that is, physical "imperfection," pleases God, but spiritual imperfection doesn`t. In fact, I heard or read somewhere that a person's spirit(or even personality, for that matter) is more beautiful than their outward appearances. And God goes for the inward stuff, the heart and mind of the individual.
"Mike Gallagher said, `When they say `Don't assume that everyone is Christian' You really have to assume that no one is Christian.'"
I think that's pretty accurate about that political correctness thing.
"Tibetan Prayer Wheels are Like as if God would cause the wind to blow so the cylinders will spin and `pray' to Him. Or that there is any prayer value in pedestrians giving them a squeeky spin when walking by. One could get just as much (or little) from a kid running a stick along a picket fence."
There's a few people I know who would get totally offended by your comment, but I agree wholeheartedly.
"I still think trying to imagine Heaven is impossible - and probably wrong (as in: impossible/forbidden)."
Impossible? Yes. Forbidden? No. 1 Corinthians 2:9 tells us it's impossible. But maybe you're right. My `heaven' website was a bit presumptious.
Me: "When in heaven, I'll be partly responsible if they don't make it, if I failed at my job."
Agnostic: "You mean those in Heaven still have guilt and regret? That sorta detracts from the Paradise idea, doesn't it? That makes Heaven seem a lot like...this place!"
Maybe you're right. I doubt seriously that the responsibility for any soul would rest completely in my incompetent hands. The idea that unbelievers will come up to me in the afterlife and ask me why I didn't tell them about Jesus is based on a Youth For Christ video. In a way, I think that video gave me an unnecessary guilt trip. After all, this particular depiction of heaven has no foundation in scripture. So, maybe not guilt and regret, but sadness over the loss of people who were taught God's word, but rejected it and thus went to hell. Even so, when you say "That sorta detracts from the Paradise idea, doesn't it? That makes Heaven seem a lot like,, this place" it does not compute. Why would it seem like earth? How could it possibly seem like earth, if there can be no more evangelism? I mean, you're already dead, so what point would there be in doing anything after that? I mean, according to those bad, biblically incorrect YFC videos, the person you don't tell about Jesus suddenly gets the information, has the wool pulled away from their eyes, but it's too late. The videos make it seem like it's all your fault that they didn't know about Jesus until they faced eternal judgement and got filled in on the details there. But anyways, `like this place' is an extremely bad way of saying it. Did you mean to say, `hell?' If you mean to say that life is hell, then what about the reverse of the problem of evil? What of the `problem of good?' How can so many good things happen in the world if God is evil or if this is hell? I mean, hell will be a lot worse than this. At least you're not sitting in a lake of fire right now.
"Any God that would punish me for eternity for holding an opinion He doesn't like, isn't worth much, anyway."
I think God has invisibly tattooed this on your forehead as a testimony against you, and that's why you're still alive. And that's why you're still alive, right now, on earth, and not struck by lightning. And that's why other religions haven't been wiped out yet.
"If God wants us to be holy, not happy, then why is prayer necessary or advisable? If I understand what you said about God denying someone the usual allotment of happiness, if necessary to perfect that person's soul, then doing anything (such as praying for a cure) presumes you (the prayor) know more about what is proper, than what God plans for the prayee! Any prayer therefore, is telling God that He doesn't know what He is doing!"
The circularity of this argument aside, you do bring up a major point. That God does want us to be happy. Only, not happy by worldly standards, as in being wealthy and sleeping with mobs of women.
"If God really had your (or the sick person you are praying for)'s best interests in mind, then all prayers would be ignored."
If it's good for a person, then there'd be no reason for God not to answer it. But in a way, you're correct. God definitely doesn't fulfill the request of people who pray for all Christians to die, or for their highschool teacher to test positive for cancer. God will do His will, with or without us or our prayers. But it's still good to talk to God, and God does provide us answers when we ask for them.
"If God gives us only what is best for our souls, not what we want, like a new car, then God must ignore prayers. If His course is swayed by prayer, it means that He (or his plan) is flawed - or that He places adulation and (sic) agrandizement above perfection of the soul."
If we're on God's wavelength, then God can give us what we want and need at the same time. But you're partially correct. God shouldn't give us that entertainment system just because we ask for it. But, on the other hand, if you cultivate the patience and do the hard work to get the entertainment system, then God will let you have it, but only after a long wait - so you can reap spiritual benefits in that same span of time. Patience is a spiritual benefit. Also, you may gain a new perspective on that entertainment system and realize that there are more important things in life than that, so, you might get what you want, but by the time you get it, you will realize that spiritual things are more important.
"If you lose at Bingo at certain places, it is the best thing for the fundraising drive."
That's true.
"It's best for the stillborn baby not to live because it spares the faulty bloodline from continuing. There is no taint of cruelty in that approach."
Maybe that's what God planned, then. Maybe God prevents a seriously messed up bloodline from continuing to spare people from the horror.
"Does the Bible say you can change Heaven to match your imagination - and not just positive imagination...but by imagining everything it isnt? Unfluff!"
You're right. I can imagine stuff all day, but it's not going to be what I expect. It will be greater! So great I can't even imagine it!
Me: "About the passion film...We get text every Sunday, but no visuals. The movie is not about `how humans treat each other,' but about `how I treated Christ,' through my sin."
Agnostic: "Soooo, religion is supposed to be about how the slaves treat the master? I never would have expected that!"
Through Christ, yes.
"The old heavens and earth being destroyed...that could just mean `death'. Or for real - maybe when our sun explodes to provide the light over some other world's Bethlehem (Asimov, anyone?). (The trouble is, I don't think ours is big enough to nova.)"
Interesting idea. Either way, it gives us hope for the future, since a new heaven and earth are coming.
"`There's a mosque sitting where the Jewish temple should be?' They have a habit of doing that. No other religion's holy sites are respected."
Indeed. That's what happens. I'm glad I have a spiritual temple of Christ instead of a physical one like that.
Me: "The "Satanic" quality of metal is actually overhyped. While the image and the design on the CD cover may appear Satanic, a great deal of these songs are actually pretty tame."
Agnostic: "Yeah, and there is Christian Metal too. Lovely stuff, that brings a sympathetic, warm tear to the eye, and nobleness to the heart. But when the `singer' is doing his best to strangle every word, and the lyric sheet includes killing, maiming, and torture - in ways I never would have imagined, it isnt `tame'. It belongs (with much Rap) in the shredder. This stuff is like the `fake - rape'. It is not innocent `fun'."
Interesting. A rather conservative viewpoint for an atheist.
Agnostic: "Oh, there are areas of dispute in science."
Me: "...which includes just about every theory outside of physical science."
Agnostic: "Inside them too. Astronomy, Chemistry, Geology, Physics all abound with questions and dispute at the learning edge. Only the parts that have been predicting successfully for a long time are trusted. Unfailing ability to predict is critical."
Interesting. And what exactly does evolution predict? Or atheism? Or the big bang theory? What's so reliable about it? None of them really predict anything. It's overly unimaginative hindsight.
Euthanasia is also called `mercy killing'. I don't approve that. As far as I go is that someone else can provide the means, but the suicidor has to take the drugs or whatever, without help. For there to be any `help', there should be a bureaucratic procedure and process to make sure the croakee has had plenty of time and opportunity to decide. I don't think Dr. Kevorkian did that."
Interesting.
"I think Heaven is unlikely to be affected by your imagination, unless Heaven is in fact designed to be malleable according to the whims of individual souls (assuming souls and Heaven exist, of course). I doubt it, because Heaven is God's stage, not yours. For His benefit, not yours - just being there is your reward, and reward enough."
You're right. But I also feel, to a certain degree, that God allows us to be co - creators. He has made human beings close to being gods. Therefore, I believe that God listens to the suggestions in our hearts and minds, that God knows our hearts and minds completely, so it's possible that we have some input on heaven's architecture.
"If religion causes one to concentrate on faith and the afterlife, worldly concerns fade."
That's not a bad thing, really.
"Prove that the big bang is true by experimentation? Collecting that many photons (enough for a visible mass) would be terribly expensive. So is the reverse (the atomic bomb), but I have (my own personal self!) seen Cherenkov radiation (faint blue light) from atomic decay, in the research reactor pool at Wright-Patterson AFB."
So where's your `proooof?'
"Creation could have taken seven days, as the bible says. Quantum theory states that there are things like leap seconds, and the universe is currently in the process of slowing down. So why not?"
Interesting idea.
"Maybe the question is not `what is your god', but what isn't? Where does one draw the line between a fun hobby and an obsession? What separates `OK' from `sleeze' - `healthy' and `sick'?"
True. I believe God should be the main obsession, but the boundaries are a bit hazy sometimes.
Me: "What I try to do on the heaven website is imagine what the water drop isn't like. It's not a matter of comfort, it's a matter of stretching your mind."
Agnostic: "I could make a crack (like the ones resulting from over - stretching), but I'll just wonder how you figure imagination of what something isn't, can produce anything useful."
I guess you could be right. I won't know what heaven is like until I get there. Hardly anyone makes the attempt, though! I find that a terrible annoyance. Here we are, talking about the most wonderful place that your soul can go to, and the only descriptions most people give you is pearly gates and golden streets. I heard one guy tell another guy that there'd be a basketball court up there, where he'd get to dribble around a gold basketball. "Okay. More details. Keep it coming!"
"The heaven website is like trying to imagine what's beyond your back yard without looking at it? Hmmm, that tall, large leafy object growing in the yard isn't a toad, it isn't a shamrock, it isn't a baseball cap, it isn't...' Talk about an infinity of possiblilities (all wrong)!"
I guess you're on to something here. I'm only guessing what heaven will be like. I should think that me and Jesus will sit down some time in heaven and laugh about the erroneous assumptions I've made about heaven in my writings and art. And then he'll show me stuff that makes those ideas look ridiculous and small minded.
Me: "So you can only imagine things in your back yard, huh?"
Agnostic: "Naw! I can see out of the back yard and probably a mile more. But infinity goes a bit farther than that. Not that there is any point in trying to imagine something that is, by definition, unimaginable. I'll stick to the possible, (sic) thank yew!"
You're right. It is impossible. Even the bible agrees.
Me: "So you won't even try to imagine heaven, I guess."
Agnostic: "Yup! But since you do like to, how about telling me what is behind Door Number Two!"
A BRAND NEW CAR! Hmmm...I guess it is impossible to imagine heaven...
"I don't try to imagine what heaven is like because I don't want to have to guess whether it is the Lady or the Tiger. And because I don't expect either (Heaven or Hell analogy, but you no doubt got that)."
Not quite, but you still get a version of our home game! I guess you've got a point.
"...our neighbor (a Catholic) once joked that confession/Forgiveness was the real reason to be a Catholic! He lived to a ripe old age, too. That tells me something."
Hmmm...interesting philosophy.
"Material posessions can be a person's god- and hobbies are largely about material posessions. Some are, some aren't. Stamp or coin collecting is, birding is not."
True, but I wouldn't assume that birding or any intellectual hobby is devoid of the qualities of worship.
"I wonder if the Tree of Knowledge should actually be called the Tree of Intelligence. Computers and books contain lots of knowledge, but no intelligence. Intelligence is something truely unique and amazing (a real God-class item!) because it is the only thing that can both use knowledge, and add to it- for good or evil."
Perhaps it is the tree of intelligence.
"`Missionaries... the natives want to know about this Jesus person?' Well some do, of course. (However) Some might see it as a way to power, or a way to please the rich and powerful (by comparison) missionaries. A few will stoke the cooking pot in wrath over ending the old ways. The rest couldnt care less."
True. Satan tries to steal the seeds of God's word.
"`The bandwagon effect' is real. There are many reasons for attendance, and once there, even I would try to participate! So I advise being careful about too rapidly jumping to a conclusion about why anyone attends any meeting. Why do little old ladies go to Bingo? It might be that they reeeely like it- or just because they are lonely. Comforted and pleased, you might be, to believe they were starved for the Word, but they might only be there for the donuts!"
Sad, but true. But maybe the donuts and the like eventually encourage people to learn about and accept the Lord.
"A good Christian can't (or shouldnt be) an `enforcer of the law'? If that is a common Christian position, it is a good thing non (or slacker) Christians will, because in the absense of enforced law, society falls apart, and minorities are purged, etc. No one prospers (and only the meanest even survive) in such conditions."
True, but what I was saying was that I personally won't be one. But maybe some Christians have enough humility to realize that being a cop doesn't make them perfect.
"Chasing a God would have to be human nature."
And for a good reason. We're helpless without God.
"`Christianity...Love God with all your heart and soul... and your neighbor as yourself. Doing what is logically best in the long term for the species and world should usually be best for the individual too."
If God's included, yes. If God is ruling the species and world, yes.
"I would use the term `concerned' instead of `keeper.' The ever - bigger government considers itself my keeper, and I don't like it. `Keeper' implies running someone's life. That is much more intrusive than showing concern for someone who merely needs some temporary help."
You've got a point, but I believe that being `concerned' for a person is more than just a temporary thing.
"God is at the top- no peers. So unlike an inventor attending a conference in the hope of acclaim from other inventors,, hmmm,, ah! how about attending a fursuiting convention to show off your fine work to the others there- a mutual admiration-fest. But God made the suitors, the world, the universe, etc. NO peers."
True. Except for Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and angels, etc.
"The only real true believers should simply believe. I'mplicitly. Unshakably. No need for bonking one's noggin on the rug 6 times daily. No need for churches and songs and other mnemonic devices. Not even any need for praise in the usually expected way."
Barring the idea of (literally) `bonking your noggin' in private, indeed, Jesus said we were to worship not in buildings, but in spirit and in truth.
"Jesus' advice was correct - only 2 are needed. One to teach the Word, one to learn. After that real belief is internal, needing no public exhibition."
True, but Jesus said `two OR MORE.' It's true that real belief is internal. And two is enough. But the `public exhibition,' as you put it, is actually for God's benefit, which you described as `pathetic.' (`Sitting in the front row of God's choir'). The fancy `tabernacle choir' is just as good as the dischordinate warblings of a tiny congregation.
Me: "To me, just being totally alone by myself for eternity, with no human contact, no contact with intelligent beings would be torture, too."
Agnostic: "That makes a lot more sense to me than actual, formal torture overseen by God and Lucifer."
Interesting, but Lucifer's going to be PUNISHED there, NOT IN CHARGE. With God's good angels handling all the ones being punished.
Agnostic: "The `denial of affection' explanation means he just turns his back to those who defy Him."
Me: Turning his back means removing all that is good from life and making you suffer a without it.
Agnostic: "That is much more Godlike, I think."
I see.
"Why is it called the Catholic Church? My dictionary says `inclusive', `universal', `comprehensive', `the doctrine of the catholic religion' and similar stuff. It should have included `selective' because setting up a doctrine is a matter of pick-and-choose what will be most effective for the organization. Those gold doorknobs in the Vatican werent spontaneously materialized by God- they were paid for by bits of the lives of scared peasants."
Indeed, that is a bit of a misnomer. That's an interesting point. The Catholic church is SUPPOSED to be the universal church. Well, at my church, we Lutherans call ourselves Catholic in the creed. Luther wanted it that way. He didn't want to divide the church, he just wanted doctrinal changes. Doctrine is religion, but it's not a relationship with God. The relationship with God is what really matters.
"Except for their age and odd language, how are these apocryphs different from modern fiction or dream therapy sessions?"
You've got a point there. That's why they are apocryphal. Their validity is questionable. They agree with certain elements of the bible, but they're not scripturally sound enough to be canonized. Scriptural soundness means that it doesn't contradict the other books, and that it actually means something to the rest of the bible. "The foreskin of Jesus," well, that story doesn't really give any important advice, and no other ancient writings support it. Not even the Dead Sea Scrolls. But, on the other hand, all four gospels describe the crucifixion. They relate, so they were canonized. And I've heard the Dead Sea Scrolls support the accounts.
"It doesn't take much faith (if any at all) to know that I have
light. As I type this, and that I can see the keyboard, etc. I don't have much doubt that
the keyboard exists. But, scientists are trained to take things on faith. Who has
actually seen (or felt or smelled) an electron? Scientists have a lot of
evidence that 'electrons' exist, yet they must accept that electrons exist, on
faith (whether they understand that faith, or not). As applied to religion, no
one has 'proof' that God exists, so that must be taken on
faith."
Definitely not the agnostic's style. But this statement is very true.