Atheist-Christian Debates

Debate #7: "Hypocricy"

"I don't believe in religion because of all the hypocricy."

There are some arguments that atheists use to reject every religion when they aren't leaning towards any of them.

"I consider violent religious crusades and jihads more heinous than you do, because there is no limit to the damage possible when the zealot feels no responsibility for his actions- in fact, believes there will be a reward for the slaughter. It is compounded when others of the same religious stripe agree and reinforce such behavior."

I feel this has more to do with the madness of crowds than with religion. Many devout Moslems find the acts of their terrorist Orthodox `brothers' appalling. I feel the same way about the Crusades. If some of these mobs really took the time to study their religious texts, they'd see the error in their ways, and see how there won't be any reward for what they're doing.

"I don't believe in Christianity because of all the hypocricy."

For some reason, although Christianity is intended for sinners only, and proclaims forgiveness for all people, we as human beings have a tough time forgiving those people. Certainly, if a minister preaches God's word while blatantly sinning, and not repenting of it, he should be driven from the congregation until he gets his act together. That's what the bible means by "Drive out the wicked person from among you(1 Corinthians 5:13)." The same goes for preachers who teach a doctrine that does not even remotely resemble what it says in the bible. It's understandable that these ministers should not be allowed to hold their original office, unless there's been a drastic change, but to not allow them to worship with you? To drive them out completely? I think that's wrong. Congregations should forgive a minister if he or she errs. As human beings, we expect our leaders to `walk on water.' But as Christians, we can only expect them to follow the footsteps of the only man who was truly capable of walking on water. And plus, you never hear about the good pastors as much as the bad ones. They're not as newsworthy, and they're too abundant to be reported on all at once.

"Christianity has had a perpetual hatred of people from other religions for centuries."

Christianity doesn't have perpetual hatred of anyone. We believe in forgiving everyone, loving everyone, Hindus, Moslems, Buddhists, whatever. We have to say, "No, we're not going to worship your gods," and "No, you can't do that kind of worship in our place of worship," but true Christians respect people of all faiths. We don't kill them if they don't believe what we do. We forgive people who attack us. If we had a Moslem government or a Buddhist government, we'd continue worshipping Jesus no matter what they do to us, but we won't fight back. Especially if we're being persecuted for our faith.

"It's hypocritical for you to say that there is only one true faith. You should live in harmony with other religions and accept them all!"

When you play roulette, there is no spot on the table that wins every time. Even, odd, black, white, or a myriad of different numbers, one of them is inevitably going to be the right one, and the others wrong. A computer operates on sets of 1 and 0, with no in-betweens. Your spiritual existence is like that. Think about it: how can a person believe that reincarnation is true while simultaneously believing that you only live once? How can a religion that has only one God agree with another which says that there are millions? How can the Hindu Vedas, which say that, basically, truth is relative or that there is no real truth, agree with the bible, that says that God's word is the only real truth? How can you accept the Buddhist idea that `all truth comes from within' while simultaneously accepting the idea that God provides all truth, from without? How can those who think they can meditate and access `God-consciousness' simultaneously embrace the proverb "Trust in the (exterior) Lord with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight"?

"Go back in time and ask a Crusader if he is a devout, dedicated, God - fearing, proper Christian, engaged in God's Work. He will say yes."

And if we sent bibles back in time, they'd see how wrong they are. The crusaders only had the word of mouth from clergymen.

"People at youth gaterings and revivals will be nice to you until you say something they seriously don't like."

It depends on whether you want to listen to them or not. If you just want to argue with them, they might ask you to leave. But if you really want to learn, and grow in the faith, then they'll be nicer. The official policy which the bible advocates, which really should be followed in this situation is that those people who say and do stuff we don't agree with, in our congregations, should first be addressed individually, then in front of the group, then, if nothing works, they should be treated like any other Christian, regardless. But nothing says they have to be allowed behind the pulpit.

"Christianity is no better than Islam. They think they're so holy and righteous that they can just go around shouting `hallalooya' and kill everybody who disagrees with them."

One thing I can say in regards to the difference between Islam and Christianity, regardless of what you personally believe. Christianity doesn't try to say that human beings are perfect. Christians don't believe they are naturally good or good by nature. Islam, however, teaches that people are naturally good. It may seem like an insignifican't difference, but when people deny that they make mistakes, when large groups of people deny that they are fallible human beings who make mistakes, the difference is huge. That's why you haven't seen a crusade or a witch burning for at least a few hundred years. That's why I and many other people, as Christians, can recognize the sinfulness of the crusades and the witch burnings, while many Moslems believe that the Jihads of the past were all ordained by God, and perhaps even believe that the September 11th disaster was the righteous act of morally perfect people. To paraphrase your comments elsewhere, "You have the luxury of isolation in time and space. In a generation, the entire population could hold exactly the opposite of your beliefs, and judge you to be a heretic- with plenty of Bible verses, or philosophies, to `prove' it."

"Are the Crusaders presently frying?"

That's God's business. I'm not really sure.

"During the Crusades, murder was a speed-pass to Heaven, just as it is for fundy Moslems now."

IN THE CRUSADERS' MINDS. I go by the bible, not general consensus or peer pressure.

"The Whistler mentioned that the Romans (and many other ancient societies) were tolerant of multiple religions. Hinduism and similar religions still are, because they are PolyTheistic. One more religious belief or god is no big deal. As long as citizens support the government (Hail Caeser!), adding other beliefs was ok. War was generally proscecuted for mundane reasons (greedy kings, repelling barbarian hoards, crop failures, etc). It was when MonoTheism (Christianity and Islam) displaced them, that religious dogma became a reason for widespread war."

According to what I've read, there are Hindu cities that persecute Christians. And the Romans threw Christians to the lions. But, of course, there is Acts 17, where Paul goes to a parthenon and explains why God doesn't need a statue or icon, and he wasn't punished for saying that.

"Hinduism is far more tolerant of other religions than Christianity."

As of 2000, it has been persecuting Christians. Hinduism in Nepal, the world's only official Hindu nation, is totally oppressive. Buddhists in Mayanmar/Burma also persecutes Christians. But about 100 years ago, Charles Hodge of Princeton wrote about Christian America, "All are welcomed; all are admitted to equal rights and privileges. All are allowed to acquire property, and to vote in every election, made eligible to all offices, and invested with equal influences in all public affairs. All are allowed to worship as they please, or not to worship at all, if they see fit. No man is molested for his religion or his want of religion. No man is required to profess any form of faith, or join any religious association(Kennedy and Newcombe, `What if Jesus had never been born?' pg 89-90)." Christians no longer go on Crusades. Christians support the creation of equal rights for women, people of other faiths and minorities, in countries ruled by communism and Islam, countries that traditionally oppress those rights. Even ultra Orthodox Jews have persecuted people and taken away people's rights.

"What will future thumpers think of us? Will they say we are getting a much deserved roasting?"

"We?" You mean, `I' or `you.' And who cares what they think? I don't go for all that peer pressure stuff. Unlike the crusaders, I have a bible, so I can avoid being misled by crowds like them. I'm sure there will be a poor example of Christiandom somewhere until the end of the earth, but I'm also sure there will be good Christians elsewhere, ones that nobody cares to mention, just like it is today. People "too boring" to merit people's attention. All I can do is pray, keep my personal "business" in order, and try to live a life that shows that Christianity isn't just talk. The bible is full of people who stood above the crowd, and did the far more honorable and just deeds, even though the crowd was full of sin. These people were like candles in a darkened world. You lead by example. That's all I can hope to do.

"Great `evil' has been done in the name of God, and I doubt those days are gone."

Great evil has been done in the name of Nogod, too. How many Christians have been executed because of communism? How many of our religious liberties have atheists stomped upon by trying to regulate them out of existence?

"The Crusaders really thought they were right and doing God's work. Only now do we have the luxury of calling them barbarous."

Unlike the crusaders, we have bibles now, so we can double check what clergymen say with the truth, and avoid such violent and barbarous messes. If you're following the bible, you know not to do stuff like the crusades.

"Look at Jerry Falwell! Look at the pope! Look at Jim Bakker! Look at Jessie Jackson! Look at (insert religious leader here)! Look at all those molestation cases! Your religion is no good because it's got too many crooks in it!"

I believe in Jesus as the only infallible leader, not my pastor, minister T.D. Jakes or Pat Robertson or whoever. I might trust these people, but I don't call any of them infallible, nor do I wish to send the big ones any money. They have enough. But, Christians do have this mandate: "...I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard or robber-not even to eat with such a one(1 Corinthians 5:11)." This means that Christians are to avoid those people who call themselves Christian but blatantly sin and don't repent of it.

"This Anglican bishop said such and such, and nothing happened to him! Law is largely ineffective without having cops here and there. You'd kinda think God could figure that out!"

• Cops are a good idea. That is why God made them. But cops are not the end all morality enforcers. They can't stop a preacher from misreading a text or stop people from committing adultery. These things are outside the jurisdiction of the regular law.
• Are you suggesting that God should make governments legislate morality? Do you really want thought police controlling our lives? Do you want cops to arrest everyone who ever said something unscriptural or had a sexual thought about a movie star? Do you really want a God who runs our lives with thought police? I personally think that is a horrible idea. But I guess you want a God who does that to us.
• Your argument is flawed because it assumes that police are always effective. If you look at the Prohibition, you can see that the law was actually changed to please the lawbreakers, instead of actually putting a stop to alcohol production and consumption. If we had thought police, it would probably end up the same way.
• Many people, when they see a rule or a law that frustrates them, they want to break it because they don't like it. For example, even though it is unsafe, some people resent being forced by law to wear motorcycle helmets. So if cops legislated what a pastor says, there would be a lot more bible-contradicting sermons taking place.
• Your argument is also based upon situation ethics. "If there's no cops, there's no law." But my religion teaches that God is watching our every move, so even when there are no cops or courts, there is a law to follow.
• You can't force a person to be employee of the month. At work, the letter of the law says, "Don't do anything that will get you fired." The spirit of the law will get you a raise and the employee of the month award. If a boss of a major corporation fired everyone who ever made the slightest mistake, he'd have no employees left. People put erasers on pencils for a reason. God knows we make mistakes, so he doesn't `fire' people right away. A smart boss gives benefits and awards and special dinners to employees who do a good job instead of ruling over them with an iron fist, watching for the slightest slip-up. I know from experience how it is to have a boss looming over your shoulder every minute of your shift, critiquing everything you do. And you want God to put someone like that over everybody's life? You want that kind of "cop"? Frankly, people would resent the invasion. A boss doesn't force you to be employee of the month. Likewise God doesn't force people to follow the spirit of the law. But he established the courts and law to enforce the letter of the law.
• Most people don't murder or speed through school zones, even if there are no cops present. The police are there to catch people who, unlike these people, follow only the letter of the law (obeying the law only in the presence of police) rather than the spirit of the law.

It proves nothing. All you have to do is read Luke 9:51-56. "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of; for the Son of man came not to destroy men's lives, but to save them." It would be like striking down an employee for one mistyped memo. God's willing to train and retrain His people instead. Every time a minister studies the bible, God trains them further. Sometimes it takes awhile to sink in.

"Mike Gallagher on his talkshow said some Methodist council approved and endorsed a lesbian minister. And you wonder why I think organized religion is bogus?"

Organized religon, maybe. Things like this are a good reason for John 4:23-26.