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As I have promised, here is my reply to your comments on my past letter. Sorry for the delay because I just got busy and i cannot always sit in the computer as there are other important things to do. My reply may even be delayed for a week to give ample time to write, but if needed I can reply immediately with just a question and answer. But in order for me to deal with every statement that I do not agree requires more time, and i hope you can patiently wait for my response. However, I love this subject, "election" and I enjoy discussing this matter. Please see below my response to your comments inserted in my past letter.
Edwin Jardinel
Note:
The bold font letters is my original letter to Bro. Jim
The Regular font letters is the reply of Bro. Jim inserted in my letter
The Italic font letters is my comments to Bro. Jim’s reply
To avoid confusing the reader of who says, I placed a description before the phrase (EJ) for missionary Edwin Jardinel and (JT) for Pastor Jim Turner.
On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:20:33 -0000 "Edwin Jardinel" <edwindj@cyworld.net>writes:
(EJ says:) Bro. Jim, I believe that election is not salvation, nor it is the act of giving the...
(JT asked:) Did you mean nor is it?
(EJ replied) "I mean that it is not the act of giving them to Christ
and it is not also salvation"--EJ
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(JT commented:) I am glad the you do not believe that election is salvation.
(EJ continues his letter) ...elect to Christ. Election happened in
eternity while the Father's act of giving the believers to Christ and regeneration
happened in time. Usually, before you give a gift to someone, you will
make a choice first of the kind of gift. I believe that God in eternity
elected TO SALVATION those whom he foreknew would respond humbly and believe
under the influence of the Spirit and the gospel.
(JT asked) Please Give a bible reference that teaches that God elected anyone based upon something He saw or knew that THEY WOULD DO. Also where do you get "would respond humbly and believe" A phrase you often use, Not that Its right or wrong but where is that found in the bible. J.T.
(EJ replied) "God did not elect man because of what man will do to God. Man has not existed yet before the foundation of the world. Rather, God elected man according to His foreknowledge of who will respond to God's grace, the Spirit's and the Gospel's call by humility and faith", Matthew 22:14, "For many are called, but few are chosen" KJV --Is this the preacher's call or God's call? If this is the preacher's call, then there are those chosen out of the preacher's call. If this is God's call, then there are those called by God but not chosen. Why is it that there are those not chosen who were called by God? The answer is because they did not respond humbly to the call of the gospel and believe. Did God know in the beginning (in eternity) who will believe and who will not believe (in time)? Yes, God knew Judas will not believe. Jn.6:64 KJV says, "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believe not, and who should betray him". When was election done by God? The answer is in eternity (Eph.1: 4; 2 Thes.2:13). Did God in eternity knew who would humbly respond to His grace and believe? Yes. Did God choose men according to their humble response to God's grace and faith? Yes. The Scripture is clear, James 2:5 KJV, "Hearken my beloved brethren, hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith...." What is meant by "poor of this world"? Does it mean that God chose only the materially and physically poor? No. The poor means the humble. Matthew 5:3 KJV says, "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for their's is the kingdom of heaven". Did God choose (in eternity) those who humbled under the influence of the Spirit and the gospel? I Cor.1:27 KJV says, "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty". What is meant by the "weak things of the world"? This has reference to those sinners who under the influence and conviction of the Spirit, realize their sins and weaknesses. They realize their limitations and inability to save themselves. Some folks teach that a sinner cannot realize his inability to save himself unless God saves him first. However there are many passages in the Scriptures that would prove that under the grace of God and the reproofs of the Holy Spirit, a sinner can realize his sins and that he cannot save himself (Acts 16:30-31) and that he can exercise faith in Christ to be saved. God in eternity knew who would humble under His grace and the reproofs of the Spirit and God in eternity choose to save those who would humbly respond to God's grace and believe (in time). Can a man exercise fear under the reproofs of the Spirit and the word? Does the Spirit and the Word warn men of the impending judgment of God? If the depraved sinner can only understand after regeneration, then there is no need for the Spirit to reprove and warn them of God's judgment, because at the time the Spirit and the word will be understood by man, that man is already regenerated and has already obtained a spiritual life. Those who have spiritual life are no longer condemned. Psalms 33:18 says, "Behold the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; to deliver their soul from death...." Can man fear God without His grace? No. Can man fear God without knowing the truth of God in His word? No. Can man fear God without the reproofs of the Spirit? NO. Will man fear God by his depraved nature? No. But under the grace of God, under the reproofs of the Spirit and the word, man can fear God. When a man is confronted with the word of God, his reaction is either to humbly listen or proudly not listen. According to Isaiah 66:2, God looks at the man who is humble repent and who trembles at his word. It says, "For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word" (Isaiah 66:2). Isaiah 57:15 says, "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones". This teaches that God gives more grace to those who respond humbly to the Spirit and the word as James 4:6 says, "But He giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, GOD RESISTETH THE PROUD, BUT GIVETH GRACE UNTO THE HUMBLE".
Election is according to God's pleasure according to Ephesians 1:4-5. Is it God's pleasure that some men will be proud? Did God in eternity choose to save in time the proud? There is no passage that teaches that. But there are many passages that teaches that God elected (in eternity) those who humble and believe (in time) under the grace of God. God hates and resists the proud, but He gives more grace to the humble.(James 4:6.). Does the verse in Isaiah 66:2 teaches us that God looks to those who humble (under his grace)? Can God in eternity look and be able to see who are those who will respond humbly under His grace and believe? Yes. Therefore, God elected in eternity those whom He foreknew would respond humbly and believe under His grace.
Other scriptures to prove this facts are:
Titus 1:1 says, "Paul a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ , according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness". It does not say that Paul became a servant of God apart from faith and without acknowledging the truth.
2 Thess. 2:13 says, "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. It does not say that God from the beginning chosen you to salvation apart from sanctification of the Spirit and without belief of the truth. But some folks teach that God chose a God-hating, sin loving, proud sinner to salvation.
--Edwin
(EJ added:) It seems that you believe that election is the same as
the Father's act of giving the elect to Christ. To keep us focus in the
issue that you have asked, here are my questions:
1. Is the Father's act of making the choice and the act of giving
them to Christ the same?
(JT answered:) Before Jesus was born it was said of Him Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. KJV
(EJ explained:)
"All those who trusted in Jesus are God's people. There are 3 kinds
of salvation: (1) Salvation from the penalty of sin, (2) Salvation from
the power of sin, and (3) salvation from the presence of sin. Jesus will
certainly save his people from the presence of sin." --EJ
(JT said:) His people are those whom the Father had given Him, When were they given? Ans. Prior to His birth.
(EJ replied:) If all elect were already given to Jesus Christ in eternity, were they all in the hand of Christ in eternity? If they were all in the hand of Christ in eternity, then they all have eternal life in eternity. If they all have eternal life in eternity and all were already in the hand of Christ, then they were already save in eternity. If they were already save in eternity, then there is no need of regeneration? Which comes first, the elect being in the hand of Christ, or regeneration? The Scripture is clear in John 10:29, "My Father which gave them me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand". --EJ
(JT said:) Paul speaks of vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor Romans
9:22-What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels
of mercy, which he had *afore* prepared unto glory, KJV. When was *afore*?
(EJ answered:) The word "afore" has no conflict with my belief because I also believe that election was made in eternity. I believe that God in eternity decreed that those who believe in Christ will be saved (in time) and glorified (in the future). I have no problem with that. But you have a problem with Rom.9:22-23: Please clarify your position on Rom.9:22-23 and answer these questions:
(JT said:) John 10:16 And other sheep *I have*, which are not of this fold: *them also I must bring,* and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. KJV
(EJ question:) Which comes first the having or the giving?
(JT replied:) Jesus had them before He brought them. J.T.
(EJ commented:) John 10:16 has reference to those who are saved outside
his true church. The fold or flock does nor refer to salvation but they
are saved first before they are to become members of the Lord's church.
God is calling his children who are in false churches and that if they
are truly saved they must come out of their false churches and listen to
the truth in the true church. People who are saved by hearing and believing
the gospel and are still in Pentecostal churches, Protestant churches,
Catholic churches must come out and be not partakers of their sins. God
is calling them to be Scripturally baptized in the church that Jesus built
(2 Cor.6:17-18). Someday, Jesus is going to assemble His true churches
into one, but those who are not in the true church are just guests. That
is why Jesus is calling those who were saved already to join the right
church in order to learn the truth. I Tim.3: 15. Eph.5: 27.----EJ
(Continuation of EJ’s questions:)
2. Which comes first, the Father's act of choosing or the Father's
act of giving them to Christ?
(JT replied:) I wasn't there but the bible says that it was all before the foundation of the world...
(EJ commented:) If they were already in the hand of Christ in eternity, then there is no need for the Father to make a choice to salvation. If they were already in the hand of Christ in eternity, then they were also in the hand of the Father in eternity. If they were already in the hand of Jesus and the Father in eternity, then no man can pluck them out in the hand of God and they are already saved in eternity. (Jn.10:28-29) If they are already saved in eternity, then there is no need for regeneration. Therefore, the choice was made first before the elect is given to Christ. Therefore, God in eternity chose them to be given to Christ at the point they believe in time. Or it can be said in this way, God elected in eternity those who believe in Christ under His grace to salvation.
EJ
(Continuation of JT’s answer:) The redeemed were given to Christ in eternity, they were then His by covenant promise. And were purchased to Him by His blood before they were born, Manifested in time by God's grace, there was no period of time ever stated that were not Christ's by election. J.T.
(EJ clarified his question:)
My question to you is, Are they already new creatures in eternity? Is Christ in them before they were born?
EJ
(EJ’s third question) 3. Did the Father make a choice because they were already in Christ? Or the Father made a choice before they were in Christ?
(JT’s reply:) The scripture says Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath
*chosen* us in him *before* the foundation of the world, that we should
be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to
the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace,
wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption
through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of
his grace; KJV
J.T.
(EJ’s follow up question) Can a man be in Christ without the Father's choice? EJ
(EJ’s fourth question) 4. Did the Father give them to Christ so that He can make a choice, OR the Father made a choice so that He can give them to Christ?
(JT’s reply) Neither The Father elected / Predestinated solely according
to the good pleasure of His will.
J.T.
(EJ’s comment) Is it God's pleasure and will that some will not believe
the gospel and die in their sins?
EJ
(EJ’s fifth question) 5. Did the Father choose to give to Christ
the unrepentant and unbelieving proud sinners, OR the Father choose (in
eternity) to give to Christ (in time) the repentant and believing sinner?
(EJ’s sixth question) 6. Who are The Father's gift to Christ, the
proud unbelievers or the humble believers?
(JT’s answer) The Father chose vile, detestable, God hating, Christ rejecting sinners that He might save them, making new creatures of them, Trophies of His grace. J.T.
(EJ’s comment to JT’s answer) So you mean that God choose to save
the God-hating and proud unbelievers? How will you explain I Cor.1:21?
It says, "...It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save
them that believe". (I Cor.1:21) Do you have a Scripture to prove
that God chose to save those who do not fear God annd do not believe the
gospel?
EJ
(EJ’s seventh question) 7. Is the pleasure of the Father to give unregenerate sinners who are without faith as His gift to Christ?
(JT’s answer) His people were all unregenerate and faithless when God elected them and gave them to Christ for an possession. J.T.
(EJ’s comment:) God is not pleased with faithless and unbelieving. (Heb.11:6; Rev.21:8). If the faithless and the proud are the Father's gift to Christ, Jesus will not be pleased with it. Rather, the Father's gift to Christ are the faithless and proud sinners who when reproved by the Spirit and the word, responded in humility and faith. The Jailor has no faith before he heard Paul's instruction. (Acts 16:30-31). He asked, "...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" He was not yet saved at that time he asked? If he were already saved, he need not ask such question. In verse 27 "And they said, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house". The apostles did not say, "believe because ye are saved". Therefore only the believers have eternal life, are in the hand of God, and are safe and secured in God's hand. Are the unbelieving and faithless in the hand of God?
(EJ’s eight question)
8. Would it be pleasing to the Son to receive men as gifts whose
hearts love sin and hate God and do not have faith yet?
(EJ’s ninth question)
9. Does it please the Father to give to Christ as gifts men who
love sin and hate God?
(JT’s reply) It is well pleasing to Both the Father and the Son to take of that clay of the same lump and make vessels of honor who now love what they once hated and hate what they once loved, when the elect were chosen and given to Christ, they were lost, dead in trespass And sin. That was their condition when Christ purchased them on the cross. But Amazing grace came and….JT
(EJ’s comment) Yes when God elected them they were faithless, but God knew that at the time He will demonstrate his grace, and at the time they will be influence by the Spirit and the word, they can make a choice to believe. So, God elected those whom He foreknew would respond humbly to His grace and believe. The Father gave them to Christ when they believe. My question is were they in the hand of Christ so that they will believe or they believe first and so God placed them in the hand of Christ?
EJ
(EJ’s tenth question) 10. Does the Bible teach that the Father's gift to Christ are the believers?
(JT’s answer) This question is like that one "Do you still beat your wife?" They are those who by the grace of God will in His time repent and believe, have faith and all spiritual grace. However when they were given to Christ they were just plain old sinners. Like me, A poor old sinner saved by God's wonderful, marvelous, magnificent All sufficient grace.
(EJ’s follow up question) Is God's grace sufficient to all men or
just some men? EJ
(Continuation of EJ’s original letter) By these questions, one can learn that the God's act of choice is not God's act of giving. He made a choice in eternity before he gives the believers to Christ in time.
(JT said) I started to say I am sorry, But no I am not sorry, but those questions do not teach what you mistakenly say they teach. However the answers might teach a thing or two. It is a shame that one will affirm the principles of a great bible truth, then forget that and go on believing as before. God bless. Jim
(EJ replied) Brother, I am not ashamed of what I affirmed, because I have never affirmed a Calvinistic position of belief in Jn.6:37,44; and 17:2. What I have affirmed is the Bible truth. The 3 verses are not exclusive properties of Calvinism. If Calvinism has some teachings similar to Bible truth and if Arminianism has some teachings similar to Bible truth, I do not regard Arminianism nor Calvinism but I have high regard to the Bible truth.If there are similarities in my explanation of those verses, it just happened that they were similar however, it does not mean that I succumb to the ideas of Calvinism. There was no change of belief before I accepted the challenge to explain the 3 verses, and there was no change afterward. I can prove that before I accepted to explain the 3 verses , i already have long time articles of those verses which have explanation harmonious to what I believe. Before anyone can accuse me of double talk, he must prove it first that there are contradictions in my beliefs. When you asked me to affirm with your thoughts and ideas in those verses, i was very careful to explain it in harmony with the whole Scriptures and and I restated your statements to make it Biblical.
God bless,
Edwin Jardinel