Thursday, March 2, 2000
 

Bro. Jim, may I shift my discussion to Bro. Curtis for a while since I have
limited time. --Edwin
===========================

Dear Bro.Curtis,

Here are my answer to your questions, but I would like to ask you some
questions also if you please.

You asked, "Do you believe that a person can lose his salvation?"  My answer
is No. John 10:28-29.

"I question whether or not you have evidence that God gave some men to
Christ "in time".  It is a fancy I had not heard before. " (C.P.)

My answer: The Scripture says, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to
me; and him that cometh to me I will no wise cast out".  John 6:37.  It does
not say all that the Father "gave me".

John 10:29 says, "My Father which gave them me is greater than all; and no
man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand"  It shows that those who
are IN Christ are in the hand of Christ and the Father.  If the elect are
already in the hand of Christ and the Father in eternity, then they are
already saved in eternity.  If they are already saved in eternity, then
there is no need of regeneration. My question is are the elect already in the
hand of the Father and the Son before regeneration?

II Cor.5:17 says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new".  The
Scripture cannot lie. If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. If the
elect were already in Christ in eternity, then the elect were New Creatures
in eternity.  If the elect were in Christ in eternity and were new creatures
in eternity, then there is no need of regeneration.  But it is a fact that
all men are depraved and regeneration is a necessity to see God's kingdom
according to John 3:3 "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom
of God".   My question is are the elect New Creatures in eternity?

Eph.2:12-13 says, "That at the time ye were WITHOUT Christ, being aliens
from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of
promise, having no hope and without God in the world: But NOW IN CHRIST
JESUS ye who SOMETIMES WERE FAR OFF are made nigh by the blood of Christ"

This epistle was written to the believers and Paul was telling them that
there was a time when they were WITHOUT CHRIST and that they were strangers
of the Covenants of Promise. There was a time that they are WITHOUT GOD.
Then it says, BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS.  It does not say they were already in
Christ Jesus. Before they were NOT IN Christ but NOW they are in Christ.
Verse 13 says that they were sometimes FAR OFF.  If they were already in
Christ's hand in eternity, then Paul won't say that they were sometimes far
off.  Does the passage say that they were they in Christ before
regeneration?

Colosians 1:21 says, "And you that were sometime alienated and enemies in
your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled".  What does it mean
by "alienated"?  Not only that but they were also enemies.  If they were
alienated and enemies before regeneration, then the elect cannot be in
Christ before regeneration.

I Cor.3:1 says to the Corinthian believers that they were "babes in Christ".
A person in Christ will always start as a spiritual babe, and from that
point he will grow in HIm, I Peter 2:2.  Before spiritual birth, they are
not in Christ.

Colosians 2:10 says, "And ye are complete IN HIM...."

Man is sinful and totally depraved. Nobody loves God and no one seeks after
God (Psalm 14:1-3). Man cannot understand by his deprave nature neither
could come to God (Jn.6:44).  However, it is God that seeks after man. (Luke
19:10). God initiates His love to man according to John 3:16.  God calls all
men to repent and believe through His Spirit and the gospel (Jer.13:11,
15-17, Heb.3:7-13; Acts 17:30). Under the grace of God, the influence of the
Spirit and the gospel, man can hear in order to have spiritual life as the
Scripture says, "Incline your ear and come unto me; hear and your soul shall
live...." , Isaiah 55:3.  Under God's grace, he can seek God, repent and
believe (Isaiah 55:6-7).  Nobody loves God but God loves man.Those who
humbly listen to the gospel and know God, learn to love God in return as his
response to God's love (I John 4:19).  Man cannot believe by himself apart
from the grace of God.  According to Rom. 10:17, "So then faith cometh by
hearing and hearing of the word of God".  Those who humble under the
influence of the Spirit would listen to God's word. (Psa.34:2).  The Spirit
influences a person before he hears God's word but the Spirit does not
regenerate a person apart from God's word (Jn.16:8; 3:5).  There is already
a struggle to remain proud or to humble under the influence of the Spirit.
(Jer.13;11, Heb.3:7-12).  God honors His word above all his name (Ps.138:2).
Since the Spirit does not regenerate a person apart from the gospel, thus
the Spirit leads men to hear God's word. (Acts 10).  Those who humble under
the influence of the Spirit would listen to the gospel preaching (Ps.34:2).
Those who fear and honor God's word, and humble themselves are given greater
grace to repent and believe (Jam.4:6, I Sam.2:30, Ps.33:18).  The gift of
repentance and faith are given to those who humble under the grace of God,
the influence of the Spirit and the gospel.  Man by himself cannot repent
and believe. But under the conviction of the Spirit man can realize his sins
and repent.  (Jn.16:8).  When a person realize his sins and helplessness, he
calls on God alone, and by the mercy of God, the Spirit aids him to trust
Jesus.  Acts 20:21 says, "...repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord
Jesus Christ".  Thus a man who repents toward God under the conviction of
the Spirit, is given by God to the Lord Jesus Christ through the aid of the
Spirit so that he comes to Jesus by faith and that Jesus would then give him
eternal life (Jn.6:44; Heb.11:6; Matt.11:28; Jn.17:2).

My questions to you:

1. Does God want all men to be humble or God wants some men to be proud?
2. If God wants all men to be humble, why are not all men humble?
3. Does God want all men to repent and believe?
4. Is it God's desire and pleasure that some men will reject Jesus?
5. Since we believe that God hates sin, why would he allow himself to be
always displeased by sin? Why won't he cause all men to believe?
 

"At first glance it seems to humanize God for the Scripture says, "known
unto God are all his works from the beginning". (C.P.)

I believe that God knows all things and that he elected some men according
to his foreknowledge.  The verse teach that God knows his decrees.  It does
not teach that God decreed first so He can know. (EJ)

"Are not those given to the Son identical with His sheep?  He gave His life
for the sheep, and not for any goats.  No goat ever becomes a sheep, but
lost sheep are brought to Christ, and by the way it is the SHEPHERD who
seeks the sheep - the sheep are not ever seen in the Bible as seeking the
Shepherd!!!!!" --C.P.

I believe that Christ died for the sheep. He died also for the church, but
not for the church only. He died for you, but not for you only but also for
me.  He died for the nation (John 11:51) but He died also for the whole
world and all men (Jn.3:16-19; Jn.4:42; Heb.2:9; I Tim.4:10; 2:6).  The
death of Christ is sufficient for all but effecient to those who believe (I
Tim.4:10).

My questions:
1. Can a person reject something which is not offered him?
2. Can God sincerely offer salvation to all men apart from Christ death?
3. If the gospel is not intended for all men, then why would God punish
those who disobey the gospel?
II Thes 1:7-9.

Did it ever occur to you that if God knows a thing is going to happen "in
the future" (I do not believe there is any "future" to God as we understand
it), but if He knows a thing is going to happen, it is sure, certain and
fixed.  It is unalterable and must come to pass because God knows it will
happen.  This is a part of the omniscience of God and not Biblical
foreknowledge at all, but I think you will agree that God knows all things.
If he knows that "John Doe" will be saved on the 15th of March, die on the
20th of March and immediately go to the presence of Christ, those events are
fixed and cannot be changed.  Likewise, if God knows that "Joe Smith" will
die without Biblical repentance and faith and go to perdition, that is also
fixed.  Since these things are fixed, how can you believe as you do that by
human persuasion and "free will"  "Joe Smith" can be induced to come to
Christ and be saved when God already knows "Joe Smith" is never going to
come savingly to Christ?  Do you think God does not know all things?  I hope
you will ponder these things.I must close and get to language school.
In the cause of God and truth, Curtis Pugh, Romania.

My reply is God knows all things. God knows that John Doe will believe on
Jan.15.  If God knows that John Doe wil believe on the 15th of Jan, and John
did not believe, then God is not omniscient.  But God is omniscient, all
knowing and his foreknowledge does not fail.  If you know that your child
wil go to school tomorrow, does it mean that your knowledge about your child
caused him to go to school.  I think knowing something is different from
doing something.  If you know that the baby will cry once he is born, does
it mean that you cause the baby to cry? No. Therefore, God knowing before
hand is different from God's decrees. God did not decree so that He will
know, rather His knowledge and Wisdom precede His decrees.  God did not
ordain a person to reject Christ.  God did not decree a person to believe.
Rather, God decreed that those who believe in His Son will have eternal
life, and that those who do not believe will be damned (Jn.3:18). Therefore,
God's foreknowledge of a person has no causal influence on his choice.
God's foreknowledge is in eternity while the act of God in influencing men
through the Holy Spirit is in time.  There is a difference between God's
knowledge and His acts. Election is God's act which He made in eternity.
(Eph.1:4). His foreknowlege precedes His election.(Prov.8:22-23).  Therefore
God elected in eternity those whom He foreknew would humbly respond to the
gospel and believe (In time), James 2:5; I Cor.1:26-27; 2 Thes.2:13.

God bless.

Edwin Jardinel