Global Training Report

After returning from my second voyage to Rio I prepared this interview and submitted it to, and at the suggestion of, then editor of Martial Arts Illustrated Mark Wiley. Soon after, and unknown to me, Mark departed the magazine. When that little detail  finally came to my attention, and I was able to track him down, he told me he had deposited the ms with GM Jose Fraguas. I contacted Jose, who told me he never heard of the ms and suggested I send him another copy, which I did. Needless to say, the ms included my copyright notice. I heard no more from Mr. Fraguas and basically gave up on it. Fast forward about eight months later. I'm at the Tijuca Tenis Clube in the cidade marvailosa (Rio, that is), where, as it had been every previous year in its brief but luminescent history, the 1999 Mundial was being held. It was packed, needless to say. I heard someone call my name from behind. It was Jacare, accompanied by Rodrigo Comprido and Fernando Magrão. "The interview came out pretty good", he said, and that was the first I  heard that it had come out or even that it was going to come out. (Martial Arts Illustrated published it in August 1999.) I was surprised that an American magazine would print copyrighted material without the written permission of the copyright holder. However, they did. There was a nice little check waiting for me when I got back to Japan two months later. It wasn't remotely as much as the US$400.00 Karate Bushido (in France) paid me for my Pride 2 and First All Japan Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Championship reportage. However, Karate Bushido's check bounced and Martial Arts Illustrated''s didn't. 

Interviewed by Roberto

GTR: Jacare, When did you first meet the Gracie family?

Jacare: The first Gracie I met was Carlson Gracie Sr., who lived in the same neighborhood I did. I started training at his academy in Copacabana in 1970, when I was 11 years old. I was a kind of weakling as a kid, so decided to learn jiu-jitsu for self-defense. Toninho Rodrigues, was my first teacher. Carlson Jr. was there too. He was a young kid with a yellow belt. Rorion was already a black belt and about 21 years old. I met him and Rickson in 1974 at Rolls’ school. Rickson was just a skinny 15 year green belt then. About 1975 or 1976 I met Renzo, at the same place. He was just a kid, with a yellow belt. Around 1978 I met Royce and Royler at one of the Gracie schools, either downtown or in Copacabana, I forget which. I met Renzo’s younger brothers Ralph and Ryan when they were both babies. I also met their cousins, the Machado brothers too. Their cousin Crolin and I gave John and Jean their first lessons, in their home in Teresopolis up in the mountains about two hours from Rio, when they were about 12 years old.

A year after I got my blue belt in 1971, I went to live in New York. I went to high school there, in Manhattan. Rolls, who was already a black belt, came to see me in New York in 1973, and when I went back to Rio a year later, I started training with him. I trained with Rolls until 1982, until the day he died in that hang-gliding accident. Unfortunately, I was there when it happened--the worst moment of my life. I was the last person to get a black belt from Rolls. After that, I started training with Carlos Gracie Jr., who is now the president of the Brazilian Jiu-jitsu Federation. When “Carlinhos” moved to Barra da Tijuca, I started training with Rickson, until 1985 when I opened my own academy, where I trained such champions as Fabio Gurgel, Roberto Traven, Alexandre Paiva, Leo Viera, and Castelo Branco, and a lot of other good jiu-jitsu fighters.

GTR: What was it like Rolling with the Gracies?

Jacare: Training was always hard but also very technical. With Rolls, Reyson, Relson, and Rorion I didn't have a chance but with the younger guys I did ok.

GTR: People often compare jiu-jitsu to chess. Did you have a strategy when you rolled?

Jacare: My strategy was to make the other guy tap and to not tap myself. That's not really a strategy I guess, but it's what jiu-jitsu is about. Wait for your opponent to make a mistake, or outsmart him into making a mistake. Then take the advantage that he gave you. Of course, he’s trying to do the same thing, so that’s what make it look like a chess game, in some sense, the strategy part.

GTR: Did you have any favorite techniques?

Jacare: Not really, just anything that works. I'm a small guy (I'm now 75 kilos but at the time I competed as a lightweight) so I like to play from the guard and finish the guy from there but also look for a chance to reverse if I can.

GTR: Let’s talk about jiu-jitsu history. When was the first tournament held?

Jacare: In 1972 or 1973. Rolls Gracie won in the black belt category, at his weight and in the open division. In fact he never lost in his career. Rickson won too. Rickson is the Rolls of his time. Actually though, Rickson lost a few times, when he was still young and skinny. But by the time Rickson was a 17 year old black belt, he was invincible. And unlike some other guys who are also pretty good, Rickson always won by submission. He was absolutely dominating on the tatami (i.e, the mat). No one could touch him.

GTR: No one ever came close to beating Rickson?

Jacare: Not really. A couple of guys gave him a hard time before he beat them. Rigan Machado and Sergio Penha both were ahead on points against Rickson, but he finally beat them by submission. It was so rare for anyone to push Rickson that these two cases stand out. Of course, there are a lot of good black belts now. Rickson might not be able to win every match by submission. That's one theory. On the other hand, when the best fighters in Brazil now, like Fabio Gurgel and Roberto Traven, roll with Rickson, they tap like kids. What does that tell you?

GTR: When you were learning jiu-jitsu , how much was for sport and how much for self-defense?

Jacare: At that time, jiu-jitsu was about 50/50 for sport and self-defense, what we call defesa pessoal in Brazil. These days, it's more like about 80/20, probably because of the UFC type competitions. People want to learn the techniques that Royce used to beat punchers and big, strong guys. And also, Brazilians like "rolling" ( sparring). We think "rolling" is good for developing all of the elements you need for self-defense, whatever kind it is. In fact, some schools don't teach self-defense at all.

GTR: Jiu-jitsu is obviously very popular in Brazil. There is an academy on every street in Copacabana and Ipanema. But it wasn't always. How did jiu-jitsu become so popular so suddenly?

Jacare: Rorion made it happen. We have a saying in Brazil: "nao se pode tapar o sol com a peneira". That means, you can't block out the sun with a screen. We have had vale tudos in Brazil since the 60's. These are fights that permit both striking and grappling. They weren't really promoted as "style" versus "style". But Rorion had the idea to use them to showcase our jiu-jitsu by matching his brother Royce against various strikers and wrestlers and other strong big guys. When Royce showed how effective jiu-jitsu could be, jiu-jitsu just exploded. That was about 1992, I think. The fact that Royce was Brazilian helped of course. Without Rorion, jiu-jitsu wouldn't be what it is today. He's a genius.

GTR: When did vale tudos begin?

Jacare: When Helio was still fighting, maybe the 50's or 60s, there was a popular tv show called "Heroise do Ringue" ("Heros of the Ring") that televised the fights of Carlson Gracie Sr. and Joao Alberto, Ivan Gomez, Euclides, and Valdemar Santana, and guys like that--very tough guys. They were outlawed for a while, resumed in the early '70s and then banned again for ten more years. Again they are being staged. But because of the Renzo Gracie and Eugenio Tadeu fight [which resulted in a riot], there's talk of banning them again. So who knows?

GTR: Chuck Norris met Helio, Rickson and Royce in Rio in 1983-84. You were there, weren't you?

Jacare: Yes, a lot of guys were there. They wanted to meet Chuck Norris. In fact, they thought it would be fun to choke out the American karate hero action star. Nobody had anything against him you know, but we were proud of our jiu-jitsu and wanted to show Chuck Norris how good jiu-jitsu is. What better way? Chuck Norris was a real nice guy. He had a friend with him, I think it was Bob Wall, who was skeptical about jiu-jitsu. He said jiu-jitsu wouldn't work against him because he'd keep us away with his kicks. He told Royce to stand still so he could demonstrate his kicks. But he wasn't controlling them too good and was contacting Royce pretty hard. Royce said "what kind of demonstration is this? I'm just standing here." And he said to Helio, "Daddy, let me spank this guy". But Rickson said "no, no, relax, be nice". Chuck Norris sparred with Helio. He had a good base. Even though he didn't know jiu-jitsu, he was a good athlete. But like everyone else, I guess they were skeptical. The UFCs changed everyone's minds. Now Chuck Norris loves jiu-jitsu and trains with Helio's nephews, Rigan Machado and his brothers.

GTR: As we know, vale tudos have been banned from time to time due to their violence. Most recently, an American fighter named Doug Dredge was killed in a Russian tournament. Do you think vale tudo is good for jiu-jitsu, or not?

Jacare: It's unfortunate that people sometimes get hurt in vale tudo although people can get hurt in any contact sport. But I think it's the elements of risk and danger that draw a lot of people to jiu-jitsu. Because jiu-jitsu is ultimately about self-defense. Vale tudos can show what good jiu-jitsu technique is capable of. After all, the Ultimate Fighting Championship was a vale tudo and it's what set off the jiu-jitsu boom in America and Brazil too. Of course, the fighter has to have the skills and the elements, he has to be well trained and well conditioned and have good coaching--that's essential. No one who is well prepared should get seriously hurt in a well run vale tudo. And absolutely, no one who isn't prepared should try to participate or be permitted to participate.

GTR: A lot of beginning jiu-jitsu students have noticed that when they use the first technique for passing the guard taught on Rorion and Royce's tapes, at Royler's academy in Rio, and probably in every jiu-jitsu school everywhere, they often end up in a triangle. Why is this method for passing the guard taught when it's obviously so vulnerable to triangles?

Jacare: It wasn't really that much vulnerable to triangles because no body knew what a triangle was. There was a guy who trained with us at Rolls’ academy, a guy named Sergio Dorileo, nicknamed "Sucuri" (Python), who liked to research techniques in old judo and wrestling books that he could find. One day he came to the academy and said "hey, Rolls, pass my guard, check this out man". When Rolls went to pass, Sucuri caught him with his triangle. Then he showed everyone what he had learned from some old judo book and since then everyone has known the triangle. I mean, all the jiu-jitsu guys . Royce beat Dan Severn with a triangle in UFC 3. Severn said after the fight that he had never heard of a triangle before. Well, now he's heard and everyone else too. Consequently, different methods for passing the guard had to be developed. These days there are so many ways. Whenever a defense is developed for one way, a new way is invented.

GTR: What do you see as the future of jiu-jitsu ?

Jacare: I see a bright future for jiu-jitsu. I formed an association to help promote jiu-jitsu here in America. Rickson has an association in California, and so have the Machados. They and also Joe Moreira have promoted tournaments, and competitions stir interest and keep people interested. If we can get organized nationally, I think jiu-jitsu could eventually become an Olympia sport, like judo and taekwondo did.

GTR: You appear to be in great shape. Do you still train?

Jacare: Oh but of course man. Jiu-jitsu is my life. I train with all my students, roll with all of them. I Swim and stretch three days a week, and do cardio and weight training three days a week.

GTR: In addition to your academy in Rio you have a school in Atlanta, USA. How is that going?

Jacare: Going well. The students here are still beginners but we've won a few tournaments already--one submission tournament and two jiu-jitsu tournaments. Some of my students are looking forward to fighting in Vale Tudos in about a year. They're training hard and the results are starting to show. I also have a video series coming out soon. I’m staying busy.

GTR: Jacare, thank you for taking the time to talk with me today.

Jacare: Any time, my friend.

Back to GTR index

(c) 2000, R.A. Pedreira. All rights reserved.