Start of #fivepillars buffer: Mon Sep 06 02:26:28 2004[01:40] * Now talking in #fivepillars [01:40] * Topic is 'Havoc in 12 days :P~' [01:40] * Set by |Ryo| on Sun Sep 05 20:49:40 [01:40] * TalonDead sets mode: +o Mardrax [01:40]hello? [01:40] <|Kin|> is it me your looking for? [01:41] whoo, didn't notice you back there behind that | ;) [01:41] * |Kin| isnt sure why he was possessed to come back with a lional ritche reference there.. [01:42] in fact, you're absolutely right, even if it's a reference :P [01:42] * Starlord_ has left #fivepillars [01:42] <|Kin|> ohh dear, what did you want me for ;) [01:42] you must be clairvoyant 0_0 [01:43] <|Kin|> or something [01:43] ......... indeed :P [01:44] well I just wanted to ask you what the status is on the whole restructuring thing, with both threads being quite dead and all, except for people asking :) [01:44] <|Kin|> no f'ing clue [01:44] <|Kin|> its not exactly my favorite subject ;) [01:45] * Swordmage has quit IRC (Exodus-Hub.US.GalaxyNet .Org lostworld.us.galaxynet.org) [01:45] what are your ideas on it then? [01:46] seeing as swordy just dropped, and you two are basically considered self-appointed initiative-takers it seems :P [01:46] <|Kin|> that someone or somepeople need to get there acts together and do something [01:46] <|Kin|> a few of us tried, then rol decided she needed to be the gloryhog, so whatever [01:46] <|Kin|> basically untill zeb spells out exactly what HE wants it really doesnt much matter anyhow [01:47] what zeb wants isn't part of the question really [01:47] it's about what we want, as players [01:48] <|Kin|> actually apparantly it is, because my idea based off of swords was apparantly nixed because rol didnt want it that way and got zeb to change his mind or something [01:48] she didn't change much did she? [01:48] <|Kin|> the players are being fairly unresponsive outside of 25ish folks or so [01:49] <|Kin|> so if the only way is to get a list of volunteers like zeb wants, it really doesnt matter much [01:49] from what I could tell from her post I thought she was basically saying pretty much the same as you did didn't she? [01:49] <|Kin|> not exactly [01:49] well ok [01:50] she "suggested" in her own friendly and oh so subtle way we draft people [01:51] the again, it's not like she's queen of the world (even though she tends to act as such :P) [01:51] *then [01:51] <|Kin|> the problem is that the majority of the people on whatever list we have have stated that they either wont play dont want to be placed in a random guild, refuse to play with these 1-4 other people, etc etc etc [01:52] no big deal is it? [01:52] <|Kin|> well if we do a draft [01:52] <|Kin|> and 50% of the people may or may not go along with it [01:52] <|Kin|> how effective is the draft in itself? [01:52] not all too effective I think [01:52] far too time consuming and far too difficult to manage otherwise [01:53] <|Kin|> i think the concept as it is is a good one, but unless the players are willing to actually COMMIT to it, theres no much we can do [01:53] * Slaya has quit IRC (Quit ()) [01:54] realistically, not everyone involved can be online simultaneously, unless we do it suring havoc, which isn't a good idea I'd think :P [01:54] and for a proper draft, everyone involved should be [01:54] <|Kin|> the draft itself isnt the problem its that in order to make it work, EVERYONE that CAN be drafted has to be willing to go with the program [01:54] <|Kin|> and from the moment it was mentioned everyone started balking [01:55] in itself it's a good concept, as people will always be playing with people they like, and if they don't, they can immediately say so and refuse to join that person [01:55] <|Kin|> or maybe not everyone, but at least a good solid % [01:55] <|Kin|> yes but thats where the problems come in [01:55] it's not that big a problem is it? [01:55] <|Kin|> too much free will will not change much [01:55] <|Kin|> because if a group of 10 people WANT to play together [01:55] <|Kin|> there is nothing to stop them [01:56] <|Kin|> and that therefore defeats the entire concept in itself [01:56] offcourse, but for the people who just don't want to play in (")random(") guilds, it's no problem they'd pick some people to play with I'd think. better to have some cooperation than none at all right? [01:57] <|Kin|> to a certain extent [01:57] <|Kin|> but if the whole concept is to split up the "talent" on the top end, what does it truly accomplish if that talent are the ones that refuse to go along? [01:58] there's a good ammount of talent spread among the people who've already said they'd join right? [01:58] <|Kin|> to a certain extent yes, but you also have groups who said they would be in it ONLY if they stayed as groups [01:59] <|Kin|> and only 20ish or so people have actually said they would [01:59] as near as I can tell there are two ways to go about this [01:59] 1) be dictatorial about it [01:59] 2) be placating about it [02:00] in case 1 we ask zeb to write a script that randomly assigns people to a guild when they join [02:00] it's never going to happen that everyone, or probably even all the problem guilds, will fully adhere to a set standard. sword already said he'd anticipated that too, and that he'd had something in mind to cope with that as well [02:00] that proposal was made and nixed, but it's workable [02:00] under the random assignment proposal we put in a contingency to keep people from just re-creating over and over [02:00] wouldn't be hard [02:01] something like not assigning someone to a guild until he's played 1k turns or something [02:01] easy to solve [02:01] nah, not workable. if people don't want to do something you can't force them, we're not dealing with 3 year olds here. if people are forced to do something against their will, they'll just leave. [02:01] <|Kin|> zeb has already nixed dicatorial about it [02:01] in case 2 we play along with all the people who say they aren't willing to play split up [02:01] and we sit down [02:01] and make guilds [02:01] we don't do a "draft" [02:01] we just make guilds [02:01] no picking [02:01] just do the best "we" (some self-appointed small group of semi-capable individuals) can do at balancing [02:02] subject to the constraints that players X, Y and Z won't play yadayadaya [02:02] <|Kin|> the problem once again is that the players have to agree [02:02] <|Kin|> and more have said no than said yes [02:02] not up front [02:02] I think more would agree to being put with their friends, although that does defeat some of the purpose [02:02] <|Kin|> there are some that have said they will NOT be a part of ANY restructuring PERIOD [02:03] when I spoke with a couple of people about the idea, the feeling was that one of the purposes it was to serve was not just to redistribute talent [02:03] but to let people play with new people (possibly ones that previously disliked them) [02:03] <|Kin|> but to get people to play others etc etc [02:03] if people don't agree with a guild they're assigned to, that can be worked out without problem, just some talking back and forth, a switch in assigning, and be done with it [02:03] which was an aspect that personally I was less concerned with (although I have very little "personal" interest at all since I can't play for now, but you understand) [02:04] <|Kin|> well ive got a list of 100 people [02:04] <|Kin|> i can see what can be done with them [02:04] how many of them are actually playing? [02:04] <|Kin|> all of them so far as i know [02:04] <|Kin|> had to go thru 3 lists of 100 to get 100 that play ;) [02:04] heh [02:04] send me the list [02:04] <|Kin|> its on paper [02:04] mmm [02:04] that's inconvenient :P [02:04] can't use excel that way [02:04] <|Kin|> had to take 3 lists and make them 1 [02:05] <|Kin|> cant use excel anyway [02:05] why not? [02:05] <|Kin|> cauz its not on my computer ;) [02:05] right [02:05] that is quite a big objective kaz, getting people to *know* more people spreads talent as well, especially on the long run [02:05] yes, it is [02:06] well kin [02:06] * KlakunAFK has quit IRC (Quit ()) [02:06] lets give you an action item [02:06] type up that list of yours :P [02:06] that's step one [02:06] <|Kin|> i can send you the 3 lists and you can handle it from there [02:06] erm [02:06] kin, scan it, mail it to me, and I'll get it into text format, I have enough time on my hands anyway for now [02:06] I'm not gonna know who plays and who doesn't [02:06] <|Kin|> my other problem is that from tuesday thru-havoc im gone anyway [02:06] <|Kin|> scan? [02:06] <|Kin|> do i look like a fricking kinkos? [02:06] :P [02:06] absolutely [02:07] <|Kin|> ill work on typing up that list [02:07] from 100 people I'd aim for 7 guilds of 12-13 [02:07] although depending on the "I will only play with..." restrictions we might not be able to get that many [02:07] <|Kin|> i already had to yank all the GoD mages anyhow [02:07] we won't achieve 100 people, and that's no big deal anyway. guilds need room for newbs [02:08] I'm not talking about reaching 100 people [02:08] I'm talking about how many guilds we can get being limited by the number of groups of "talent" that will let themselves be broken up [02:08] ie if 5 top players refuse to be split up [02:08] the idea goes to hell in a handbasket [02:09] not necessarily [02:09] not all the talent needs to be split [02:09] <|Kin|> also have to factor in, im not sure which people dont play fast [02:09] that's an interesting statement, mard :) [02:09] I mean, if they want to go and be self-centered at it, fine, let them be that way, we don't need everyone in [02:10] uhh but you do heh [02:10] well [02:10] I guess you don't [02:10] if ou have someone willing to be the asshole [02:10] and kill those mages a few times in the first few weeks [02:10] to slow them down [02:10] * Kazarian looks innocent [02:10] with 20 talented people there's 10 guilds with a core of 2 talented people in them, or 7 with 3, whichever [02:10] <|Kin|> btw, is shivar playing kaz? [02:10] <|Kin|> last i heard was no [02:10] nope [02:11] his "sex-holiday" has ended and he's moved to germany [02:12] * PhilipRed has joined #fivepillars [02:12] hi [02:13] * Kazarian sets mode: +o PhilipRed [02:14] assuming 45 people from those said 100 refuse to join, that leaves 30 people, spread over 7 guilds with a 3-man core that leaves 7 guilds with 8 players, which then need 28 people (preferably newbs) to fill them up to 12-man guilds [02:15] whats that Mardrax ? [02:15] <|Kin|> discussing guild restructuring [02:15] will you do it finally? [02:16] <|Kin|> trying to come up with ways to make it work [02:16] we were discussing the guild restructuring [02:16] <|Kin|> yeah phil [02:16] <|Kin|> you and rol are in the same guild [02:16] * |Kin| whistles [02:16] lol [02:16] lol [02:16] aaaaw [02:16] you know i wont participate .... if i dont play with people i want i dont get fun [02:17] and fun is all this about [02:17] hmmm.... I don't think we should let roline even be a part of it anyway, she'll just scare people off instead of attracting and keeping them ;) [02:17] lol [02:17] phil, you can play with people you want even if you'd join [02:17] i dont think so mardax [02:17] how large is the list of people you really want to play with? [02:17] but if it works maybe i participate next set [02:18] <|Kin|> well phil, the parties involved will try to make it fun for everyone involved [02:18] very large :P [02:18] how large? [02:18] i know [02:18] and i admire your effort [02:18] <|Kin|> you wont have everyone on it [02:18] very isn't a number we can work with [02:18] i didnt understand you kin [02:18] <|Kin|> i think the biggest thing is avoiding things like the example of you and rol ;) [02:18] <|Kin|> meaning wherever you end up wont have ONLY people you know in it of course [02:19] i really dont have a problem with her, its just she is stupid [02:19] <|Kin|> i cant disagree with you there, but whatever [02:19] and i cant stand stupid people [02:19] alright [02:19] lets make 7 guilds from your list [02:19] who do you know who refuses to be separated, kin? [02:19] <|Kin|> to a certain extent yes [02:19] <|Kin|> lemmie go smoke then we can talk [02:19] maybe he will, kin, don't make pre-emptive conclusions, we're trying to make this work for everyone remember? it might take some effort, and maybe it can't be perfectly balanced, but as long as it works, it works, right? [02:20] i didnt get you mardax [02:20] how many people do you have? [02:20] 50? [02:20] 60? [02:20] he made a list of 100 [02:20] 40? [02:21] all of them agree in participate? [02:21] if entire guilds are saying they won't join, guilds that will probably be a probably prove problematic in case we get this trough, we need one or two unbalanced guilds to balance them in turn. paradoxes rule :) [02:21] no [02:21] out of those 100, about 50 didn't refuse to join [02:22] of what I understand from kin [02:22] i think you should just count with those people who said "yes" [02:22] and make guild from them [02:22] guilds) [02:22] and after that they can look for more partners [02:22] some people said they did(n't) want to play with so-and-so, or other conditions [02:23] there are a lot of people I don't know on this list, unfortunately [02:23] that's just what I was saying :) [02:23] well you can make a draft [02:23] choose some leaders [02:23] that's one of the points kaz, getting that to change ;) [02:23] and they will choose for you [02:23] nah, drafting won't work [02:23] why? [02:23] not right anyway [02:24] i think its a great idea [02:24] you post the list, chosse a few leaders and make and order to choose [02:24] better to have someone just make the guilds [02:24] ok [02:24] as you wish [02:24] wait a min phil [02:24] but that just more troubles for you [02:24] <|Kin|> trouble is ok ;) [02:25] * |Kin| invites you to join #bahhumbug [02:25] do you have any idea to make guilds? [02:25] well I never had the pleasure of meeting this trouble [02:25] but I heard a lot of bad things [02:25] :) [02:25] about what? [02:25] I don't know [02:25] I am as confused as I am [02:25] O_o [02:26] see [02:26] lol End of #fivepillars buffer Mon Sep 06 02:26:28 2004