Muslim-Christian
Dispute
A Christian:-
The Quran announces the Trinity - Allah,
Spirit, Al Quran. Or Allah + Rasul-allah + Al Quran = 3 gods
Comment:-
You should read the book instead of inventing
things about it. What is the purpose of stating falsehoods when you can be so
easily refuted? Where in the Quran does it say that the Spirit IS Allah or that
the Messenger IS Allah or that the Quran IS Allah?
But perhaps you see Trinity as referring not
to God, but to religion. The three do work together.
What the Quran says is :- There is no god but
Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of God, the Quran among other things is
the Word of God, and the Spirit is also Allah's and comes by the command of
Allah.
"Your God is one God; there is no God
but He, the Compassionate, the Merciful." 2:163
"Believe then in Allah and His
messengers, and say not 'Three'. Desist! it is better for you. Allah is only
one Allah..." 4:171
"Say: I am only a Warner, and there
is no God but Allah, the One, the Absolute." 38:66
"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only.
Allah the Eternal, Absolute, Infinite, besought by all! He begets not and is not
begotten! Nor is there any thing like unto Him!" 112:1-4
"If Allah desire to take a son to
Himself, He will surely choose those He pleases from what He has created. Glory
be to Him: He is Allah, the One, the Absolute." 39:4
Is this not clear enough?
Even the New Testament does not say there are
three gods. The Trinity has been invented.
But yes Religion, not God, is presented to us
by God, through the Messenger and the Spirit working together. The Spirit
informs the Messenger as well as those who understand and follow the Message.
Christian:-
The Quran says:-
"They surely disbelieve who say: Lo!
Allah is the Messiah" 5:72
"They do blaspheme who say: God is
one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God." 5:73
While I understand that Trinity is
unacceptable from an Islamic point of view, it should be noted that mainstream
Christianity neither claims that "Allah is the Messiah" nor that
"God is one of three".
Comment:-
What in your opinion is being claimed when
they say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? Or when they say
"God is three persons in one?" Or Jesus Is God incarnate?
Is God a committee? Or is it being said that
God has three aspects? Is it that God works through Jesus? Or that he transmits
the Word of God.
Note that the Bible tells us that God is the
Father (not the Son or Spirit) and that "Son of God" refers to those
who are led by the Word of God or by the Spirit. The following verses tell us
what is meant by Son of God:- John 1:12 and Romans 8:12 and John 10:33-35 In
this last, Jesus quotes Psalms 82:6 "Ye are gods and all of you are
children of the Most High."
No one can possibly interpret this as meaning
that the Hebrews were God, but that "He called them gods, unto whom the
Word of God came."
This confusion between gods and God is what
Islam avoids in the statement "There is no god (deity) but Allah".
For Muslims, Allah is the same as what Jesus
calls Father, and not the Word or Spirit, though these proceed from Him. The
Messenger is not the Word either, but he carries the Word. But Religion rather
than God is presented to us by God through the Messenger and the Spirit - so
you could say that Religion is based on a Trinity.
The following verses show that there is no
Trinity and the Father is the only God:- John 1:18, 5:37, 6:29,46, 13:16
15:1-2, 4:28 17:3, 20:17
"And this is Eternal Life that they
might know THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom Thou has sent."
John 17:3
"While I was with them in the world I
kept them in THY NAME..." John 17:12
"And he (Jesus) said unto him: Why
callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou
wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Mt 19:17
"..I do nothing of myself; but as the
Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28
Even Paul did not believe in Trinity:-
"For there is one God, and one
mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Tim 2:5
"There is actually to us one God the
Father,...and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ" 1 Cor 8:6
"One God and Father of all, who is
over all and through all and in all" Eph 4:6
"And ye are Christ's, and Christ is
God's" 1 Cor 3:23
Thus John 1:1 should be "..The Word was
God's" [Theos = God,Theou = God's]
See also:- Romans 15:6, 1Corinthians 1:3, 3:22-23,
8:5-6, 11:3, 12:4-6, 2Corinthians 1:2-3, 11:31, 13:14, Ephesians 1:2-3, 17
6:23, 4:4-6, Galatians 4:4-6, Philippians 1:2, 4:19-20, Colossians 1:2-3,
1Thessalonians 1:1, 2Thessalonians 1:1-2, 1John 4:12, 2John 1:3 1Timothy 1:2,
17, 2:5, 6:15-16, Titus 1:4, Philemon 1:3, James 2:19, Jude 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2-3
Christian:-
Three aspects of the one God is an
appropriate description of the Christian belief. Christians do not believe in
"three gods" as seems to be implied in Quran 5:73. Jesus is indeed
believed to be the Son of God in the sense of an incarnation of God, but is
that the same thing as claiming that "God is the Messiah" (5:72)? The
Christian beliefs which are refuted in 5:72-73 do not reflect what modern
mainstream Christianity teaches, it seems to me.
Comment:-
If you think Jesus, the Messiah, is an
incarnation of God then clearly that is the same as saying "God is the
Messiah".
When they say God is three persons in one and
one of these is Jesus then again that is the same as having three gods.
But John 1:18 tells us that no man has seen
God at any time; the only begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father, he
has declared him." Jesus was on earth and "the only begotten" is
God's Word.
But why do Christians think that Jesus is an
incarnation of God? Did not Jesus on one occasion think that God had forsaken
him? (Matthew 19:47) Does Jesus not deny this when he says:
"Why callest thou me good? there is
none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
commandments." Mt 19:17
and
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know
what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is,
when the TRUE WORSHIPPERS SHALL WORSHIP THE FATHER in spirit and in Truth: for
the Father seeketh such as worship Him. " John 4:22-24
What John 1:14 says is that "the Word
was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory, the glory AS OF the
only begotten of the Father." Not "the glory of the Father". The
"only begotten" obviously refers to God's Word. This is like saying
"this Judge is an embodiment of the Law."
These are symbolisms. Why take things
literally? It is the literalist interpretation that the Quran denies i.e. He
has no son because he has no consort. (25:2)
The Quran tells us that the Spirit of Allah
is in man (32:9). This does not mean that man is an incarnation of God.
Jesus is said to be "Emanuel" which
does not mean "God" but "God-with-us" which is the same as
saying he is an agent or representative of God just as a Judge is a
representative of the Law.
Messiah or Christ means one anointed by God
which implies that the Spirit of God was with him (See Isaiah 61:1 and Luke
3:22-23). The phrase "Son of God" is also symbolic and means one led
by the Spirit or Word of God (See John 1:12-14).
However, if the Christian position has
changed so that they do not think of God as three persons, but three aspects or
points of view or that the trinity refers to religion rather than God, then I
cannot see any conflict between Christianity and Islam.
However, the doctrine of the Divinity of
Jesus which leads to the Trinity also leads to a third conflict with Islam,
namely the Vicarious Atonement through crucifixion.
We see however, that the New Testament does
not teach salvation by the crucifixion of Jesus. What Jesus taught was:-
"Not every one that saith unto me
Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but He THAT DOETH THE WILL
OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. Many will say to me in that Day: Lord, Lord,
have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And
in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I
NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY." Matthew 7:21-23
And Paul tells us:-
"Be not deceived: God is not mocked:
for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his
flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit
shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galatians 6:7-8
But we can agree that God sent the
Messengers, and that the Messengers bear hardships and make sacrifices to bring
us the Word of God. (6:163-164). So in a sense, we are saved if we accept the
Word of God that comes to us through the sacrifice that the Messengers make.
This, however, is quite different from saying that it is the sacrifice of the
Messenger that brings salvation. No, it is obedience to the Word of God that
brings salvation, just as Jesus taught. People are not saved by believing in
the crucifixion i.e. one is not saved by "faith alone" as some Christians
assert, because "faith without works is dead." (James 2:20)
Christian:-
"Jesus the
Messiah is God" is indeed what Christians believe, but I do not think it
is the same thing if one turns the statement around "God is the
Messiah". The latter would imply that God only exists as the Messiah,
whereas Jesus is believed to be an incarnation of God, while the latter remains
in his immaterial, omnipresent form.
We do not think
that God is three persons in one and one of these is Jesus. Christians don't perceive it this way.
They consider that basically there
is one God, Jesus is not an additional god. But may be according to Islam,
which is more strictly monotheistic, Christian trinity may be perceived as
"three gods".
Comment:-
So "Jesus the
Messiah" and "God" are not identical in your view. And Jesus is
an incarnation of only a part of God? Is God divided into parts?
I do not think you
can speak for all Christians. I have corresponded and conversed with many
Christians and their views were not the same as yours. According to one or two
they worshipped the One God through Jesus and did not think that Jesus himself,
the flesh & blood man, was God. But he had surrendered to God.
Christian:-
I think the conflict
between Christianity and Islam is not so much dependant on considering the
trinity as three aspects or points of view rather than three persons. This
would not make a fundamental difference it seems to me, as Christians
eventually believe in the basic oneness of God. The conflict lies rather in the
Christian notions of incarnation and the divinity of Jesus, and as you
mentioned, crucifixion and vicarious atonement.
Comment:-
As the Quran says:
"Say not Three. Desist, it is better for you." 4:171
But the Divinity of
Jesus, the Trinity and the Vicarious atonement are all inter-dependent ideas.
The Vicarious atonement could not be effective unless Jesus was regarded as the
literal son of God. The sacrifice is regarded as like that of Abraham’s sacrifice
of his son.
But what I, and
others, cannot understand is how the two things can be linked. Abraham showed
his Surrender to God by his willingness to sacrifice his son, thereby
establishing his own faith, the willingness to sacrifice the flesh to the Spirit.
This is obviously not the case with God's sacrifice. How does the death of
Jesus save other people? And where is the sacrifice if Jesus was resurrected.
In fact Luke tells us that Jesus was still in flesh and bones when the
disciples erroneously thought he was a spirit. He was taken up to heaven only
later. (Luke 24:36-53)
It seems to me that
the whole thing is metaphorical. It is the Christian faith that died when Jesus
was crucified and it was resurrected when he reappeared. The death and
resurrection of faith takes place throughout history. And individuals who go
through times of low faith are also required to revive it or have faith in its
revival.
Note also the words
of Jesus:-
"Then said
Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself,
and take up his cross, and follow me." Matthew 16:24
He is asking people
to make sacrifices (of the worldly in favour of the spiritual). He, Jesus, is
an example. Abraham was an example before him. Islam also takes Abraham as an
example.
The Cross is a very
ancient symbol. It consists of a horizontal line representing the world and a
vertical line representing the direction from heaven to earth and below. This
represents a struggle between two tendencies, the flat worldly and vertical that
may ascend or descend. The symbol shows a man attached to the Cross. The
implication is that the tension between these forces is within man and it is
his responsibility to reconcile the two.
Another Christian:-
My initial comment
is that Quran 5:72-73 does not reflect or refute modern mainstream Christian
beliefs and teachings. This is one reason why I believe that a gulf of
misunderstanding exists between Muslims and Christian belief. It is unfortunate
that passages such as these are used to paint a picture of what we know to be
"mainstream" Christianity, in the same way that Islam is
misrepresented by those of other faiths who pick up a single verse and use it
to paint an incomplete picture.
Comment:-
It seems that
religious disputes are caused mainly because one or both sides misinterpret or
invent ideas that are not in their own, or the other’s, scriptures. But
in any religion there are people who know, understand and practice their
religion in different ways and to different degrees. There is, therefore, as
much dispute within the religions as there is between them. The differences lie
in the understanding of people rather than in the Religions. Genuine Religion
is a single phenomenon having the same source, nature and purpose, though the
emphasis, formulation, institutions and methods differ. This too is the Islamic
position. But it leads to a dispute with all those who claim exclusive truth,
and these also conflict with each other.
The controversy
between religions is certainly because of misunderstandings on both sides. The
Islamic objection to Christian beliefs can only refer to the misunderstanding
not to the original doctrine because otherwise the Quran would not have
asserted that Jesus was the Messiah, a spirit and word of God. (Quran 4:171). Nor
could it have the following verses:-
"They are not all alike. Of the people of the
Book there is an upright community, reciting the revelations of Allah
throughout the night, falling prostrate (in Surrender). They believe in Allah,
and in the last day, and bid intelligent (or right) conduct, and forbid what is
stupid (or wrong), and vie with one another in good works; these are among the
righteous." 3:113-114
"You will surely find that the strongest in
enmity against those who believe are the Jews and the idolaters (Pagans); and
you will find the nearest in love to those who believe to be those who say,
"We are Christians". That is because there are amongst them men
devoted to learning (or priests) and men who have renounced the world (or monks),
and because they are not proud." 5:82
"Say: O you people of the Book, come to an
agreement between us and you, that we will not serve other than Allah, nor
associate aught with him, nor take others for Lords rather than Allah."
But if they turn away then say, "Bear witness that we are they who have
surrendered." 3:64
"Unto every nation have We given sacred rites
which they are to perform; so let them not then dispute about the matter, but
summon you unto your Lord; verily, you (Muhammad) indeed follow right guidance."
22:67
"And unto you (Muhammad) have We revealed the
Book in truth, verifying what was before it, and preserving it. Judge then
between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their lusts
(prejudices, fantasies), turning away from what is given to you of the truth.
For each of you have We appointed a Law and a traced out Path. Had Allah
pleased He would have made you one nation, but that He may try you by that
which He has given you. Therefore, vie with one another in virtue. Unto Allah
will you all return, and He will then inform you concerning that wherein you
dispute." 5:48
Christian:-
In summary, to
clarify, the primary differences between Christian belief and Islam is:- 1.
Islam denies the divinity of Jesus, and does so explicitly. 2. Islam denies the
crucifixion / resurrection of Jesus, albeit in less clear terms. 3. Islam
denies that sin requires a blood-sacrifice as payment – given by ritual
sacrifice under Judaism and by Jesus under Christianity – as a necessity
by which a believer's relationship with God can be restored or maintained as
holy.
Comment:-
I do not think it
really denies the crucifixion and resurrection but it denies that it has the
significance which Christians give it. We are required to work for our own
salvation. I did quote Jesus as saying that salvation is by obedience to the
Father in heaven. Jesus did not teach salvation by belief in his crucifixion.
Christian:-
I would contend
that the Trinitarian position has always been an aspect of religion rather than
of God. You have to remember that the primary reason the idea came into being
was to counter beliefs that would have led to associationism and
idolatry/shirk. It was always a framework to allow conformity of belief and a
prevention of heresy - the primary heresy being polytheism and idolatry - and
in that its purpose is rather more in line with Islamic emphases on preserving
a unity of understanding of God than seems to be recognised at present.
Comment:-
So you agree that
the Trinity is an aspect of Religion rather than God. It is correct to say that
religious ideas have undergone evolution and that the Quran is certainly
concerned with establishing a higher idea of God and this requires denying
previous versions. No other Scripture comes even close to describing God in
such detail.
It is not the case
that the higher concept was not understood at all in the past (no doubt various
Hebrew Scholars, priests and Rabbis
did, as also many Christians) but that it was understood only by the few. It was
not understood generally. Islam came in order to generalise this higher
concept, to bring general awareness to a higher level. I am of the opinion that
the Christian doctrine may have been OK for the past but was now to be
superseded. It is like going from one school to college.
Christian:-
The controversy
between Muslims and others is, I think, the result of the Muslim belief that
the Quran is the Word of God, when in fact, it is based on the written word
which is a human invention.
Comment:-
The Quran was not
originally written, but it was a recitation, and before that a revelation in
the heart of the Prophet. The written book is only a record of this revelation.
The purpose of it is to transmit the revelation into the heart of the readers.
Apart from this,
language and writing can be thought of as being inherent in the nature of man
and his history and, therefore, something that comes from God through human
instruments. It all depends on point of view.
Writing, like
language and other things, has an evolutionary history. It is not possible to
point to any particular human being as the inventor. The series of people
through whom language and writing developed were not only dependent on the
previous set of people but also on the events in the environment that
stimulated them to make modifications.
The question is:
when a person P1 does something or expresses an opinion, is the cause
exclusively in him or is it in those who affected him, and in the Society and
Culture in which he was brought up? When there is a causal sequence
A>B>C>D>E...>N, which of the factors A, B, C, D is responsible
for N? Or is it that the whole series is responsible? The fact is that causal
series do exist, and this is the real cause. In fact, at each stage there is an
interaction with several factors so that each of these stages is complex and B,
for example, is not determined wholly or exclusively by A, and does not only
produce one effect C. B could well be caused by factors other than A. An effect
B1 could be the result of the interaction of several factors A1, A2, A3 etc.
and produce several affects C1, C2, C3 etc, by interaction with B2, B3, B4
etc. In fact each stage must be
thought of in terms of the whole context in which it occurs. This system again
belongs to a higher system and so on to the ultimate Whole.
We can look at this
from another angle.
Consider a
horizontal line
A..............................>...B on which a person is moving from
A towards B and he has a limited vision. He sees only part of the line. He has
a past, a present and a future. We have a time line.
Suppose we draw a
vertical line through this. A person moves upwards away from the horizontal
line and he has a certain angle of vision. As he moves upwards (comprehends
more) he sees a bigger and bigger part of the line as a whole.
These two views are
different. They are as different as the view of a person looking down from an
aeroplane or spaceship is different from that of a person standing in the
middle of a city. From the narrow point of view we attribute all kinds of
things to ourselves which are certainly not so from the wider view. Islam is
trying to expand our view. It is best understood from the vertical rather than
the horizontal angle.
Question:-
According to some
Muslims, the cause of everything is ultimately Allah. But this is like the
Deterministic Model which says that all of nature works like a machine. The
same model also says there is no purpose or intention in nature. Even human
intelligence has no intention since everything in it is caused by something.
How can these views be reconciled?
Comment:-
Mechanistic
Determinism is not an Islamic model. From the Islamic point of view, nature
does not work like a machine which is dead, but by the will of Allah. That
means that there is a purpose and the causal force adjusts itself to reach that
purpose. The first thing created by Allah is said to be Intelligence, i.e.
adaptability.
There is a force of
gravity, but it is not the same everywhere and does not prevent birds and
aeroplanes from flying. The intention of the bird or pilots of aeroplanes has
allowed them to overcome or get around the force. This, of course requires
expenditure of energy - i.e. a payment has to be made. The same is true about
all the various forces. If you look at the whole context instead of things in
isolation then you see that things adjust themselves to changing environments.
It is just a
different way of looking at things because religion is concerned with human
adjustment to Reality, not with impersonal thought, which is an attitude
incompatible with human nature. Human faculties are designed to benefit human
beings. Does intelligence exist in nature or not? Do human beings by selective
breeding affect the evolution of plants and animals or not? In what way is
human action different from what nature does? Are human beings a product of
nature?
Christian:-
According to the
Bible the covenant made with Abraham passed to his only son Isaac and his
descendants. Therefore, it passed through David to Jesus and his followers. It
did not pass to Ishmael and his descendant Muhammad.
Comment:-
The covenant made
with Abraham passed to both Isaac and Ishmael and Ishmael was his eldest son.
Isaac was never the only son of Abraham. The Bible appears to have been
corrupted. The covenant made through Moses applied only to the Israelites, the
descendants of Isaac. What the OT says is:-
"And Sarah Abraham's wife took Hagar her maid
the Egyptian, after Abraham had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan and gave her
to her husband Abraham to be his WIFE" Genesis 16:3
"And Hagar bare Abram a son and Abram called
his son's name which Hagar bare, Ishmael." Genesis 16:15
"And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him
(Abraham) in the cave
of Machpela."
Genesis 25:9
When Sarah asked
Abraham to cast out Hagar and her son (Genesis 21:10-11) the OT reports "the thing was very grievous in
Abram's sight because of his son”.
It cannot be argued
that Ishmael was not Abraham's son, specially as a promise and a covenant was
made by God with him. As the NT tells us that the two wives of Abraham, Sarah
and Hagar have symbolic meanings. (Galatians 4:22-25) As the OT tells us that
Sarah was jealous of Hagar because of her son (Genesis 21:9-10), whom she
wanted to cut off from the inheritance she persuaded Abraham to banish Hagar
and Ishmael. This can be interpreted as meaning that the descendants of Abraham
through Sarah, the Israelites did banish the descendants of Abraham through
Hagar from their community and scriptures. It can be further interpreted as
meaning that the religion of the Israelites was in a sense elitist or that the
Israelites had a special mission for a time – they were the priesthood to
mankind. But the time for the universal Religion for humanity was yet to come.
This would be brought by a Prophet like Moses from among the brethren of the
Israelites (Deuteronomy 18:15,18); in other words, from among the descendants
of Ishmael. This Prophet is described as follows:-
" (God said) I will raise them up a Prophet
from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deuteronomy
18:18
Compare this to the
prediction by Jesus which is similar to the above and, as Jesus makes it,
cannot apply to Jesus:-
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye
cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will
guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall
hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall
receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath
are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto
you." John 16:12-15
This can be easily
be seen as referring to Muhammad (saw).
The NT also tells
us that Jesus came only for the children of Israel and not a title of the
Mosaic law was to be abolished.
"But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not
sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law,
or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17
"For verily I say unto you, Till
heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the
law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the
kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be
called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:18-19
And we read:-
"And I say unto you, That many shall come from
the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in
the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into
outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew
8:11-12
Christian:-
Christianity is
based on the death and resurrection of Jesus, but this is what Islam denies.
Comment:-
What the Quran says
is:-
“And because of their boastful saying,
"Verily, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger
of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor did they crucify him, but it was
obscured for them (or it appeared so to them). And verily, those who differ
about him are in doubt concerning him; they have no knowledge thereof, but only
follow a conjecture. Certainly, they slew him not! Nay, Allah raised him up
unto Himself; for Allah is ever Mighty and Wise!”4:157-158
It denies that the
Jews crucified and killed Jesus as does the New Testament, and that ideas surrounding
this event were based on speculation not knowledge.
Christian:-
The fact remains
that by this account God deceived the immediate witnesses of the crucifixion
and the billions of Christians for whom it has been the centre of their faith
for 2000 years. A deceiving god does not deserve to be believed, neither does
the prophet of such a god.
Comment:-
No, People deceived
themselves. As you can see from Luke 24:36-43, the disciples (who had run away
and were not witnesses) thought that Jesus was dead and that he had returned as
a ghost. But Jesus dispelled their delusion by asking them to handle him and
see that he was flesh and bones. Jesus was taken up to heaven only later (Luke
24:51). But obviously later followers of Jesus, probably because of Paul’s
teaching, continued to believe that Jesus had died on the cross. Jesus taught
salvation by obedience to God, not by belief in his death and resurrection. Islam
does not require the death and resurrection. All people are to be resurrected
and judged on the Say of Judgement.
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