Discussions
Critic:-
Regarding discussions about
"Trinity", between Christian and Muslim, many Muslims abhor the
concept of 'comparative religion', as do many devout Christians. Both groups
dislike having their 'faith', 'revelation' and 'doctrines' challenged by the
other, and yet the irreconcilable 'Trinity' subject is often being debated in
Islamic circles, for whatever reason. Is this kind of futile 'apologetic'
debate leading us anywhere? Will it change the attitude of Muslims or
Christians? This I sincerely doubt!
Perhaps, what is worse, as in this particular
instance, both sides are ignoring the undeniable historical facts surrounding
the issue, as is illustrated below.
What is fascinating is that in the 4th
Century (381 CE) the Council of Constantinople's definitive statement of belief
(now referred to as the Nicaean Creed) did not contain the word filioque, 'and
the Son', which in effect nullifies the whole concept of 'Trinity'. Why are we
seriously discussing an 7th Century interpolated form of the original Creed?
For more historical information see "Western Society and the Church in the
Middle Ages" p64-65 by R. W. Southern.
Is there a Muslim lesson that can be learned
from this 'interpolation', otherwise what is the point of discussion? Did not
it, in fact, eventually lead to the East - West schism in Christendom?
Finally, why do Muslims want to perpetuate or
meaningfully discuss an historical Church inaccuracy? This I cannot answer, can
you? Does not the historical facts establish, beyond doubt, that the
"Trinity" doctrine is a Church fallacy?
Comment:-
O.K. So you have added something to this
discussion! And that while criticising the discussion as futile!
It is a question of whether you believe in
the Unity of Allah or not; and whether you know and understand what the concept
of "Trinity" really means or implies. It depends also on whether you
wish to explain Islam to those who ask, criticise or attack Islam.
It is not Muslims who go to Christian sites
to deny the Trinity as far as I know. It is Christians who come to Islamic site
to propagate their doctrines or at least ask questions. Some obviously have doubts
and have not understood what the Islamic position is and why. This thread was
started by a person who asserted that the Quran teaches Trinity.
I do not think that either Christians or
Muslims in general understand what is involved in the concept of "Trinity".
Certainly you seem to have little idea.
What is wrong with discussions between faiths
and the removal of mutual misunderstandings? I am sure many readers now, after
this discussion, understand much better what the original concept was, what the
Christian position is and what the Islamic one is.
How was it possible for Islam to spread if
there had been no discussion? Does the Quran not insist on the Unity of Allah?
And do not Christians still believe in Trinity and defend it without
justification and understanding?
It is argumentation, disputation and debate
that should be abhorred, not discussion. This is because discussion is
enlightening and those who enter into it presumably wish to increase their
knowledge. The other modes of exchange are confrontational which divide into
opposing sides, each concerned with attacking the position of the other,
defending their own position and scoring points. The purpose is to win and
boost the ego and not to reach Truth.
True, Islam is not a missionary religion in
the Christian sense, sending missionaries to convert or impose their religion
on others by any means, including bribery, spin and falsehood, and whether or
not the teaching is understood. But Muslims are obliged to set an example and
give information to those who ask and are receptive. What the Quran tells us is
this:-
"And argue not with the people of the
Book, unless with better means; except with those who have done wrong amongst
them and say: We believe in what is sent down to us, and what has been sent
down to you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we Surrender (as
Muslims)." 29:46
"Revile (or abuse) not those who call
on other than Allah, for then they may abuse Allah openly in their ignorance.
Thus We make seemly to every nation their deeds. But unto their Lord is their
return, and He will inform them of the truth of what they used to do."
6:109
"Follow what is inspired in you from
your Lord; there is no god but He, and shun the idolaters. But had Allah
pleased, they would not have associated aught with Him. We have not made you a
keeper over them, nor are you for them a warder (or responsible for them).
" 6:107-108
Knowledgeable Christians and Muslims know
that the concept of the Trinity was not taught by Jesus, but is a later
invention. But that is not what the discussion is about. It is about what it
implies and whether the concept is accurate and useful or not. The fact is that
Christians believe in the Trinity today, and misunderstand Islam from that
point of view, and think that Islam contains a contradiction by accepting Jesus
while denying the Christian position. Did you not notice?
You ask: "Why do Muslims want to
perpetuate or meaningfully discuss an historical Church inaccuracy? This I
cannot answer, can you?"
The answer lies above and in your question:-
the need to dispel an "inaccuracy" and "discuss
meaningfully". But if you think the discussion is futile because you could
not understand it, why are you commenting on it? Is it because you do not
understand it and wish to be enlightened? Or is it criticism for the sake of
criticism?
Obviously those who took part in the
discussion did not think it was futile. If the fallacy of the Trinity is beyond
doubt, then why are you telling us all this? Tell it to those who do not think
it is a fallacy.
Another Muslim:-
The critic may have a point here, in a
general, psychological sense. As the Quran says:-
"Surely the case of Jesus is like the
case of Adam. HE created him out of dust, then he said to him, "Be', and
he was. This is the truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of those who doubt. Now
whoso disputes with thee concerning him, after what has come to thee of
Knowledge, say to him `Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women
and your women, and our people and your people; then let us pray fervently and
invoke the curse of ALLAH on those who lie." ...................etc.
Is it wildly incorrect to read the above as
effectively placing a very 'strict' limit on holding discussions on this topic?
Comment:-
(1) Where in these verses does it say that we
should not discuss and try to enlighten those who are in error? What do the
following verses say:-
"And that there may spring from you a
nation who invite to goodness, and bid right conduct, and forbid what is wrong;
these are the successful." 3:104
"You were the best of nations brought
forth unto man. You bid what is reasonable, and forbid what is inappropriate,
believing in Allah. Had the people of the Book believed, it would have been
better for them. There are believers among them, though most of them are
sinners." 3:110
(2) Is it not the case that when the truth
has come to us and someone comes to dispute with us, then the following verse
applies?
"And whoever disputes with you after
what has come to you of knowledge, say: Come, let us call our sons and your
sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves: then we will
earnestly pray and invoke Allah's curse on those who lie." 3:61
(3) Am I not doing what the following verse
says?:-
"Say: O people of the Book! Come to a
word equal to us and you - that we worship none but ALLAH, and that we
associate no partner with HIM, and that some of us take not others for Lords
beside ALLAH. But if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we have submitted
to God. " 3:64
One tends to get fed up and irritated with
the category of Muslim, (which should be added, but not mentioned by the person
who enlightened us by dividing Muslims into categories) namely those who
criticise every one else without understanding but have nothing constructive to
add.
True in the end, when efforts fail, it is for
Allah to remove errors, and for us to adopt the following:-
"Say: O you faithless! I do not serve
what you serve; Nor will you serve what I serve; Nor will I serve what you
serve; Nor will you serve what I serve; To you your Way and to me my Way!"
109:1-6
"When you see those who plunge deeply
into vain discussion of Our Signs (revelations), turn away from them until they
discuss another topic. It may be that Satan makes you forget, but sit not,
after you have remembered, with the congregation of the faithless (or unjust or
wrong-doers). Those who fear (or avoid evil, the righteous) are not accountable
for them at all, but remind them (or give them the Reminder, i.e. the teachings
of the Quran) that per chance they may learn to fear (Allah). Leave alone those
who have taken their religion for a play (pastime) and a sport (jest,
amusement), whom the life of the world has deceived, and remind them hereby
lest a soul be destroyed by what it has earned. It has, beside Allah, no patron
or intercessor; and though it should offer every compensation it will not be
accepted. Those are they who perish by their own deserts. For them is (the
similitude of) a drink of boiling water, and grievous woe because they
persisted in their disbelief." 6:68-70
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