BRADFORD HERITAGE RECORDING UNIT

ACC. NO: A0054

SEX: FEMALE

SERIES TITLE: TEXTILE

TOPIC: GENERAL INTERVIEW

DATE OF BIRTH: , MAY 1902

RECORDING DATE: 15.2.1984

DURATION: 1 hour

SPEED: 19 cm. per sec/7 1/2 ipS

NO. OF REELS: 2

NO. OF CASSETTES: 2

LOCATION: HOME ADDRESS

INTERVIEWER: IRENE M. HORBURY

ACCESS AND COPYRIGHT: FREE

ABSTRACT:

Irish extraction. Family emigrates to America: Childbirth:

Looking after family: Brother's First World War experience:

Lloyd George Insurance Scheme: Chain Horses: Comber.

REMARKS:

Q. Go on, then, you were born?

A. In 1902.

Q. What date?

A. May 28th. I was a Whitsuntide baby, wasn't I? I was born with a veil on that I have somewhere, I don't know. That isn't going on I hope is it?

Q. It's all right, go on.

A. And I was the eighth child. There were seven, am I kicking you? There were seven older than me and there were thirteen of us, and my (mother died in 1912 and I was ten and she died of her thirteenth baby at forty year old. Well, thirty-nine. She was just short of forty.

Q. What did they call you?

A. Before I was married?

Q. No, when you were born?

A. When I was born? Ellen McGrath. And my mother died the week after the baby was born, Jimmy, she died up in St. Luke's, at Union Hospital, the Work House, and she left nine of us. Then the baby got measles and Pneumonia and he died when he was eighteen months old. As I say, I was ten year old and I was the only girl. The boys that were left were older than me, but if you get me right I'd three brothers older than me. The others had died that were older than them. I was the eighth child, but she'd had seven before me and five after. And when my mother died, my father's sister reckoned to look after us, but, Ooh, she was a, she was the wicked end to us. And that was her daughter. Now that was me. She's the youngest, she's seventy-four now. She's seventy-seven. She was born in 1910. She was born in 1908. Have I got it right?

Q. Yes.

A. She was born in 1917 and he'd have been eighty this year if he'd have lived, but he's died since and I was born in 1902, so we were the last and the longest. Now I've a brother living eighty-seven yet. My eldest brother he died in America. He went to America when he was nineteen and then my other brother he was a soldier from being young and he died. My other brother died. He'd have been eighty-five if he were living, and you haven11 seen that for a long while have you?

Q. Who is it?

A. 1918.

Q. Was it Edward McGrath?

A. Edward McGrath.

Q. "Private Edward McGrath. He is well and is reported Prisoner of War, camp not stated. For all further information please apply to the Central Prisoners of War Committee, 3 & U Thurlow Place, S.W.7 enclosing this card and adding Batallion and Regimental Number." What Batallion was he in?

A. Fourteenth Isles of Wight Infantry. And he was reported killed on the Big Push April, 1918. That's 1918 August, and my father got that to say that a Prisoner of War had been killed in the Big Push, 1918. I bet there isn't anybody else with one of them, is there?

Q. No, I've not seen one of those before.

Q. That's lovely.

A. With the green stamp.

Q. Yes, yes. You had a lot of deaths in your family, didn't you?

Q. What happened when you were young when people died?

A. What happened, how do you mean?

Q. Well, can you remember your mother's funeral?

A. Oh, yes, I went to it? I was only a child, like. Somebody lent a pair of boots, because we were poor, and she was buried at Scholemoor Cemetery in a horse-drawn like in "living Memory", and it was horse-drawn, you know, Thora Bird's "living Memory" thing an old horse like that, and that when that baby died they buried him same in a little white coffin at Scholemoor, but my mother, I can remember I went to it. Me, I was the eldest girl, and my tvo brothers, but the others they were only kids. You see, youngest was only two when my mother died, two, four, six, eight,

Q. And was this just the one, two, three, four, five, six that were left of you?

A. No there were nine of us left. You see, my eldest brother's eighty-seven and my other brother he went out to America, and then other brother that were a Prisoner of War he died when he was in his fifties of kidney trouble, and you see, we were the youngest that were left. The four lasses is left and my eldest brother. The others as died. Four girls are left, but my eldest brother's eighty-seven, he's still living.

Q. Did you wear special clothes for a funeral?

A No, somebody lent me a coat to put on or summat. We were poor; we had nothing.

Q, How did you pay for your funeral?

A. I couldn't tell you love. I mean, I didn't know owt about that. I know Turnpenny's at the bottom of College Road used to be the undertakers. They buried her, but I don't know about that, you know.

Q. What did your father do?

A. Worked in the Wool Combing all his life on the night turn.

Q. What Company did he work for?

A. He worked for Smith's in Preston Street and he worked for Westbrook Mills. It used to be where the Colleges are now, isn't it? Westbrook Combing Company. Be did work at Smith's in Preston Street when my mother died. I can remember they came to tell us from there and there was only me at home, and my brothers, one was half time and the other was just gone full-time, and him that was eighty-seven run back to Smith's in Preston Street and got my

father out. It was Thursday tea time and they came to tell me and I went going looking for them and left the other kids in the house, and my father and our John stopped all night with her and she died. It was born at two o'clock Friday 19th October were that baby and she died 26th October.

Q. And where were you living then?

A. Burnett Street, 83 Burnett Street.

Q. Burnett Street?

A. 0ne of the West’s places there.

Q. And your father was working on nights then?

A. Yes.

Q. And you had to stop at home and look after the children?

A. Well, I had to stop at home. I had to see em put to bed and all that, you know.

Q. How did that affect you going to school then?

A. Oh, well, we’d get up and go to school. He was right strict was my father. We were no worse for it, but we had to do what we were told and everything, but that one there

she were, her mother was my father’s sister and she used to supervise us a bit, but she did nothing for us. She was wicked. I’ll tell you what she once did with me. She used to take washing in, reckon to do, but she’d always be in the Tippler, and I’d have to scrub the washing that she used to reckon to take in, and she shoved me one night into a peggy tub of dirty water.

Q. Did she?

A. Oh, yes. She used to get me into loads of trouble her. I don't know whether she's living yet. She went to America in 1915, her and her mother.

Q. Can you remember anything about school?

A. Do I remember much about school? I only went to St. Joseph's in Grafton Street.

Q. What did you do at school?

A. Well, we were all in one big room, you know. There were no separate classrooms in them days. Just, we did like what they do to-day, they call it Maths. We used to do sums and History, Geography that and Writing. I was a poor writer. "Nelly McGrath sat on the mat. The cat sat on the mat. Nelly McGrath." I had to do that about fifty times when I was in Standard one.

Q. How old were you when you left?

A. School? Fourteen. I went to work when I was twelve half time.

Q. Ah, where did you go to work when you were twelve?

A. At Sugden and Briggs at Upper Castle Street, six o'clock in the morning, and eight o'clock to half-past what you called your breakfast, what you called your breakfast. You couldn't sit down or

owt, and after that you work while half-past twelve and then you had to run home then and get your dinner and then go off to school for two o'clock, and when you were on't afternoon turns at work,

you went to school at morning and then you came home and had a bit of dinner, if there were any dinner, and then you'd to go to work. for quarter-past one while quarter-past five them that started at six o'clock in the morning, but if you started at half-past six in a morning you finished at quarter-to-six at night, and you also worked Saturday mornings as well. From six till half-past twelve

at Saturdays at twelve year old and then that was 1914 and 1916 I left school. Then in 1919 when the war was getting serious they started letting em leave school at thirteen, you know, to get 'em

in to Textile, because they were working longer hours for Khaki, making Khaki uniforms and all that, and. then from there, I left there then and I went to Arnold's in Richmond Road, John Arnold's. He was a big man with a great long beard, and, you see, you had to, we when we first started were Doffers, what they called Doffers, but the Spinners you'd to keep your carriers clean and everything, you know, and he used to come round looking round and one day he got his beard fast (Laughs) and he sort of shouted and one of the lads run and threw the frame off and the Overlooker couldn't see what were up and he screwed the rollers and that was the beard out. I think he gave this lad a penny. I can't think of lad's name now. Oh, it's a long while now, isn't it? and I worked there for ever so long, and then I.....

Q. Who was John Arnold?

A. In Richmond Road a big, he was Lord Mayor of Bradford, John Arnold. He had a son called Willie Arnold. How did he get killed in the First World War, I'm not sure? But John Arnold. His name will be in the City Hall I expect, he had a big, long white beard. John Arnold, Spinners, Richmond Road. I think they had a fire once. I left there and another one and we went to work at Ira, Ickringill if you did but know. That's shut down now and we worked there. We used to set off working from here, no trams or owt, on Trinity Road, down Shearbridge Road, right across into Legrams Lane. Half-past six in a morning we started there till quarter-to-six at night, and am I all right?

Q. Yes, you're all right. What can you remember about the 1914/18 war?

A. Well, I can remember..... I can remember the low Moor explosion. That was in 1916, wasn't it, yes? I was working at Arnold's then, but I can remember being scared at night when we were on us own. I was the oldest at home, you see, with my father being on nights. There used to be me, Harold, Alice, Maria and Lizzy. The other lads had joined up. He joined up at seventeen. My father got him out once.

Q. This was Edward?

A. Yes.

A. And our John, the eldest, he was in the last war in eighty-seven on reserve. He got wounded in the Battle of Somme in his arm, and then, it wasn't right bad, but he was in Liverpool Hospital here

and then he joined up in the Royal Flying Corps they called it then, didn't they? Well, he was out in Egypt and our Teddy, him that died, Edward, he was in Rawalpindi in India. He kept on. He was a

Sergeant Major when he took poorly and died, you know.

Q. You said that about 1917/18 people were going to America, some of your family.

A. No, her, my cousin and her mother, my aunt, they went in 1915. They went on the ship before the Lusitania sank. The Lusitania sank in 1915. If you look it up, crossing from the Shannon I think, going across the island, but they were on the ship before. Now my oldest brother that went out when he was nineteen, he was on the ship before the Titanic.

Q. Oh!

A. The Titanic was sunk in 1912, April, wasn't it, April, and my brother went in 1911 to America, and I always remember my mother saying, "Well, thank God my lad wasn't on that." That was in the April and she died in the October, so what were you going to say?

Q. So what made them go to America?

A. Because all the family was there but us. They don't know us. Max' is out there, my uncle. My grandmother was living in 1925, because some friends came over and they called to see my father, because I was expecting my second child, and I know they gave my eldest daughter a cent, money, I know it was a lot at the time, and if she didn't go and spend it all on Kayli (?). I could have killed her. I could have done with it for a loaf or something.

Q. For what?

A. For a loaf of bread or summat. I could have killed her, and my grandmother had sent 'em to see my father and we were all left here, they all went. They all went from Rupert Street way to America. My grandmother and all of 'em.

Q. When did your grandmother go?

A. Oh, I can't remember. It was when I was a baby. I was walking about, because our Teddy, he was next to me, and he said, "Ooh, I have a scar on my eyebrow," and somebody said, "You did that falling running to my grandma for a halfpenny she was giving you before she went to America." But I can't remember then. My father's mother went, my Uncle Frank, and his two sisters. Her mother was another sister. She been and come back and got married again, but any road they split up and they got a divorce and she went out in 1915 to my grandma, so that was it.

Q. Were they able to get jobs in America?

A. Oh, yes, they all had good jobs. Even my brother had, and I can remember his address, because when I was sixteen gone. Now then, it was before I was married, he was saying he'd like me to go out there ...... but my father wouldn't let me go because I couldn't take her.

Q. The little one?

A. Yes, because she was only about five and, you see, his wife, you see, you couldn't start work in America while you were sixteen. Well, I'd gone sixteen. Well, I'd gone sixteen, that was it, yea. I used to have the letter. I don't know where it is, telling me all what to do on board the ship and all this, you know, when I got there. Set off from Liverpool and all this, but he wouldn't let me go wouldn't my father, and I used to have the letters and his address was 4341 Tackawanna Street, Frankford, Philadelphia.

Q. You had to stay at Ira Ickringill's? ?

A. Yes, I did stay at Ira Ickringill's, yes.

Q. What were you doing then?

A. Spinning, Spinning. Putting hems on the sides, you know, four sides, and we'd twenty-three and six a week. No, yes, and we'd twenty-eight and six a week, and after the war finished they dropped us wage five shillings to twenty-three and six a week, and I had that in 1921 when I got married. I got married when I was at Ira Ickringill’s in 1921.

Q. Tell me about meeting your husband?

A. Oh, well, I met him at Shipley Glen. (Laughs) Promming, you know, over Shipley Glen and that's just, you know, and we used to go to The Palace, old Palace, four pence it used to be at Palace or the Pictures and that was it. Just promming.....

Q. Where was the Palace?

A. Oh, it was underneath The Prince's.

Q. Oh, yes.

A. Yes, yes, bottom of Manchester Road. It was underneath the Prince's. Gracie Fields and all them used to be there, and the Prince's was at the top. They built the Alhambra in 1910. I remember that getting built.

Q. What can you remember about that?

A. Well, a friend of mine her father worked on it. He fell off it and got killed. They called him Mr. Kelly, when they first started building it in 1914. That was the year that it was built, wasn't it? So that's a memory for eighty-two .

Q. Very good.

A. I can remember right back. I can remember a lot. I can remember our Teddy, him that's dead, putting me up the wringing machine. There were that many kids he was putting me up.

Q. Your finger?

A. Yes, feel, it's stitched, and my oldest brother in America took me to, took me all the way to the old Infirmary to have it stitched. I can remember coming back up Preston Street. I've a right memory, I never get confused. I hope that isn't going on there, I hope.

Q. Was the food rationed in the war?

A. The food rationing in the First War didn't come out until 1917 till the Yanks come in, and what were going, May Pole and all that, such as us kids were pushed out of the road by big women getting it. Our Harold used to go to one place; our Alice had to go to another place, our Mary had to go up Manchester road for Tea Cakes for my father, and this was after we'd come from school. You know, nobody knows, but we know it was awful. The old wringing machine, washing. I used to bake at twelve year old a stone of bread I had to do. There was nobody else to do it. An old Irish lady learnt me that lived on there, and every Saturday afternoon I was baking a stone of bread after working in the morning.

Q. Can you remember that dreadful time of the Bradford Pals?

A. Well, that's when my brother was in. Him that I've told you wore eighty-seven year old he was in the Bradford Pals.

Q. Yes.

A. And he got wounded in the Somme.

Q. But they say that there was a big column in the papers, because a lot got killed.

A. They did. He was lucky was our John they all got wiped out. Then in the 6th, West Yorkshire, 6th Company, 6th West Yorkshire or summat, but our John was in the Bradford Pals and they all got wiped out practically and he was lucky. He got hit in the arm. He's still walking about to-day. Everybody knows him. Eight-seven year old. He was a bus driver for thirty-six years.

Q. Well, tell me about how you got married?

A. How who?

Q. How you got married?

A. Oh, I got married at St. Joseph's.

Q. What did you wear?

A. A navy blue dress and hat. That was it. I had an old photo somewhere, but I don't know where it is.

Q. Did you have a reception or anything?

A. Yes, in the house. (Laughs) No, it isn't here. No it isn't.

A. No, that's the ambulance, the old ambulance drivers where my husband went. Them's the awards he got for having no accidents when he was a bus driver.

Q. Your husband was a Bus Driver?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he driving a bus when you married him?

A. No, no, no. He was just a Warehouse Man that was all, you know, in the Warehouse.

Q. Where did he work?

A. On Gordon Street canvas-bag mending, you know.

Q. Did you go on working when you got married?

A. Oh, yes, and then I had to give up. I worked at Ickringill's.

Q. Where did you live? .

A. Rupert Street, 34 and my father lived at 36. Yea. She was born there the oldest girl.

Q. How did you manage to get a house?

A. Well, we'd lived there practically all us life, and I'd got one up Otley Road and one that lived at bottom of Farley Street, she come from Otley Road, and she wanted to get back up there, so she asked me if I'd have that house and she'd take the one that I'd been offered under the same Landlord. Wolf Angel owned them. It was up Otley Road there. Oh, I can't think, Charles Street I think it was in Otley Road, and she asked, she wanted to go back up there, and I wanted to stop there, you see, and that was it.

Q. How much rent did you pay?

A. Five-and-six a week. Sixpence gas and five shilling rent.

Q. How did you furnish it?

A. Well, we got second-hand three piece and bed and kitchen dresser and that was it. and bare floor. I used to scrub the bare floor till we got, we couldn't afford oil cloth, so that was it.

Q. And how long had you been married when your first baby came?

A. Just ten month, yes.

Q. How long did you work before your baby came?

A. I think I gave up in the May, because I was having morning sickness all the way on Trinity Road till I got to Ickringill's. Oh, I hope that isn't going on there.

Q. Oh, it's all right, won't worry.

A. And then, work was very tight and everything, and she was, I went to work when she was six week old, and I used to come home and an old woman just on here used to mind her. It was only twenty-three shilling a week. I was paying eight shilling for her minding her. I used to run home at Breakfast time, breast feed her, run back to work, eight to half-past, and then come home at half-past twelve dinner time and feed her again, - and this is how it was.

Q. All the way from Ickringill’s.

A. No, no, no. Mike Dawson's in Upper, in Spring Mill Street. Sorry love.

Q. You've gone to Mike Dawson's now, yes.

A. Yes, in Spring Mill Street, yes. Have I got that wrong, haven't I?

Q. It doesn't matter. That was easier for you to get home and.....

A. No, I've gone off of it. It was when we were kids I was going to tell you. When she was born.

Q. What were you going to tell me?

A. She was born at Christmas, her. We'd nowt to eat. When the Midwife came Christmas Day we'd a bag of oranges and we'd an orange a piece. That was us Christmas dinner. (Laughs) It's true.

Q. Because you were so poor?

A. Yes. Well, all them kids and a pound a week and the Combing didn't go far, did it?

Q. Is that all.....?

A. That's all they had for sixty hour a week.

Q. Your father?

A. Yes.

Q. One pound?

A. Yes, that's all they had, and eleven kids. They all had house fulls of children. There wasn't only us. That's all they had to do. There were no wirelesses or owt were there? Pubs opened at six o'clock at morning while eleven at night, so there wouldn't be much left out of a pound when they called in for a pint was there?

Q. Well, how did you manage for clothes and food?

A. Well, we used to get hand downs off anybody I expect. It wasn't only us. All of us, you know, people all about round here.

Q. They didn't know anything about controlling the size of their families

then?

A. Well, no, not in them days, did they? I didn't, any road. The only thing is to-day they've everything for 'em and they don't care, do they?

Q. Did you have any attention while you were having your baby?

A. No, I didn't know a thing and I was in the shop getting a piece of fish for our tea and a woman said, "What's up with you, Nelly, love?" I said, "Ooh, I-have awful stomach ache and back ache." A shop in Manchester Road, and I come home and I thought, "Oh, I don't know what's up with me." I didn't know you could send for the Midwife or owt. I didn't know nowt. She lived at She lived up Boyton Street, Nurse Johnson, and she come and she said, "Oh, it's only false labour you'll be all right."

Q. Did you know you were having a baby?

A. Oh, yes, but I didn't know I was in labour. Oh, yes, I knew, I knew it was any time, like, but I didn't know, and I didn't know anything. I didn't know. There was nobody to tell me owt. I'd no cousins.....

Q. Where did you have your baby?

A. At home. 34 Rupert Street.

Q. And the Midwife came?

A. Oh, she came then, you know, and delivered, and got me on the bed and I just had the baby, and she came next day to just sponge us down and that was it. They didn't get attention like they do

to-day. We got nowt.

Q. And then you went back to work?

A. When she was six weeks old.

Q. And what were you doing then?

A. Spinning at Mike Dawson's.

Q. And you were earning twenty-three and six a week?

A. Yes, and I was paying twelve shilling nursing money, and then I come to have the next one I gave up work about three month before she were born. She's fifty-nine this year, ay. She was born in 1925, her, and then I went back to work when she was a few month old, pushing two of 'em out in a pram. I paid nearly half of my wage out for two of 'em minding, and then at six month old the young un got whooping cough off a girl that used to go into this old woman's house and I'd to give up work, so that was it.

Q. How old was your second child then?

A. She was six month old. Oh, when I went to work?

Q. When you finished work altogether?

A. Well, I'd to give up when she was six month old, because she got

whooping cough.

Q. That's right.

A. And I was poorly myself with my chest, because the doctor said I'd got it off of her, but I don't think I had.

Q. How did you feel about leaving your baby and going out to work?

A. Well, it was awful but, and then you had to come home at night and do all the washing and everything, and they'd be crying half the night and this was it, but you had it to do because you were that poor, so to make ends meet.

Q. It was about nineteen twenty-five when you stopped at home then?

A. Yes, for a bit.

Q, How long did you stay at home?

A. Well, in between I had a lot of illnesses, so I won't go into all that. I've only just come out of hospital now. I’ve been twice before Christmas.

Q. You had a lot of illness?

A. Operations, yes.

Q. How was that? Which hospital did you go to?

A. Old Infirmary and the New Infirmary.

Q. When can you remember about the Old Infirmary?

A. Well, it was at the end of Lumb lane, passed Micky Drummond's, by Micky Drummond's, and Micky Drummond's Mill Chimney, I was on wing ward and you could see Micky Drummond's mill chimney and that, you know, and they just carried you to the Theatre on like two posts, and there were a piece of cloth, you know, and when they were taking me saying, "Painting a cloud with sunshine," and I thought, "Ooh, my goodness." Any road, I've come through, so.....

Q. Was your husband working whilst you were ill?

A. He was, let's see, I'm trying to reckon up what years there were, but he was out of work in 1926 and all that, you know, and everybody was out of work at the time. I'm just trying to think now what year it was. I'm just trying to< think now what year it was, but then he got on the buses and the old trams^ He started on there in 1929, I think.

Q. Was it on that piece of paper?

A. No, yes it is.

Q. Let's look then. If he started in..... That's 1937.

A. Yes. Oh, it was in the twenties. I've a lot of those.

Q. That's 1936.

A. Yes.

Q. Yes, but he went on the buses, the trams, in nineteen-twenty....

A. Trams and buses, yes. ^

A. In 1929. Well, from 1925 to 1929 he was unemployed?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, how did you manage then?

A. Well, he was on the Tests, what they called the Tests. Well, he used to get eight shilling on a Monday, Tuesday, and eight shilling and a food ticket to take to Driver's-and he got same on Thursday. The that was thirty-two shilling a week for four of us?

Q. Eight Shilling.....?

A. Eight shilling and a food ticket and eight shilling in money. That was sixteen shilling, wasn't it?

Q. Yes.

A. And then you got same at Friday, Thursday or Friday, and you used to have to go to Shearbridge what do you call it now, Board of Guardians thing they called it, didn't they?

Q. Yes, they did.

A. In Shearbridge Road and apply there. Well, then they want on the Tests, what they called the Tests. You worked at Union Street chopping wood and stones and stuff and they got sent to different places, and then they started on, before they got on the trams, on the Week About, work a week and sign on a week, and then they were doing the roads. I don't know what roads they were doing, but it was called Week About. They used to call it work a week and starve a week.

Q. Did you get more money when he was working a week?

A. The week he worked? I can't remember now, but when he was out of work and I was out of work all we got for the four of us when we signed on was twenty-five shilling a week for the four of us. That was for me and him and the two kids.

Q. Can you remember any strikes?

A. Nineteen twenty-six General Strike, yes.

Q. What can you remember about that?

A. Well, I can remember them down at Kitwards down at Britannia.....

Q. Britannia Street.

A. In Britannia Street there, two or three got fighting over black and one another calling, you know, and Angus Rhodes's was the same in Springmill Street. There were mills all over, you see. On Palmer Street alone there was Priestley's, there was, what did they call that Rennie, he was the actor. His father owned a mill on there, Rennie's Mill. There was Sugden and Briggs, there was Muff's, there was Ripley's there were Craven's, the Weaving Shed, what did they call the other? There were two having sheds there and then there was Ripley's Dyers just on Ripley Street. All mills, all up Manchester Road. There were mills all over there. There isn't none now, is there? Bulmer & Lumb's and all them, Robert Shaw’s at Odsal Top, the same on Canal Road, they were all mills, wasn't they.

Q. When you were.....

A. Your back will be aching.

Q. It's all right. When you were so ill did you get your treatment free at the hospital?

A. Oh, yes, yes. Well, you couldn't afford to pay with it could you? I didn't know, I once was in for a week with my glands, and it was 1923, our Molly was thirteen month old, 1923, and they charged me four shilling a day for being in for a week.

Q. Where was that?

A. St. Luke's.

Q. St. Luke's?

A. That was twenty-eight shilling for a week. Well, you were lucky to draw a two pound wage when he was working. He was working all hours and you'd to pay that off. They collected it when they collected the rates, and then when the National Health came out it was different altogether in 1918, but apart from that you used to be paying doctor's bills. V/ell, you couldn't afford to get doctors, you'd be getting herbs from Herbalist or owt like that. And the cheapest doctor in Bradford at that time was old Doctor.....

Q. Did he live locally?

Q. Well, how do you know he was the cheapest?

A. Well, he only used to charge you sixpence, and they used to charge more the bit posher ones. Everybody used to go to him, now what did they call him? It started with "R".

Q. It will come to you.

A. Doctor, I was nearly there then. Anyway, it doesn't make no difference, but we used to pay doctor's bill of a tanner a week, sixpence a week.

Q. You used to pay every week in case you needed it?

A. No, when you got the bill in. A collector used to come and collect it, but there was a town doctor, a Doctor Waller. She lived over Great Horton. Oh, I can't.....

Q. Ashgrove?

A. Over that way Ashfield or summat, wasn't it? I'm not wrong, am I?

Q. Your not.

A. It was her who said I'd got looping cough off our Irene at six month old and she was the town doctor.

Q. Was she free then?

A. Yes, you got sent to her when you had nothing and she was very good was Doctor Waller. She was, she was good. She made me give up work. She said I had to give up work. She said, owing to me having a bad chest as well. you see, and she said I got the whooping cough....

It was a barking cough that I had, but I don't know.

Q, Well, after you'd had all this illness did you go back to work?

A. Yes.

Q. About 1929 did you go back to work?

A. No, because he started work on the old trams in 1929. that was it. I didn't go back to work then for a bit. Now where did I work? Angus Rhodes's. I worked there then for a long while, and then I

was taken poorly again.

Q. What did you do at Angus Rhodes?

A. Always Spinning or Roving, you know, and then from there I went to, after I'd got better again, I went to work at Cannon Mills, Brooksbanks. There were two firms and Verity & Wadsworth were at the top.

Q. What are you laughing at? Did you work there?

Q. I was trying to remember the different companies at Cannon Mills.

A. And there were Bearder's, Weaving, and Kellett Woodman's down the other road, isn't it? There were Bearder's, there was Brooksbank's and there was Verity & Wadsworth's. Rycroft's were further up the road up Great Horton. That's where I worked and I worked there till I was sixty. I didn't think I'd get a pension, but all the time I was poorly my stamp was going on, because I was off ill. It was 1962 and I retired and, ooh, it got on my nerves , because I got married, and. I'd always worked, so I ended my days part-time up at Warburton's, and it's all pulled down now.

Q. What were you doing there?

A. Roving, you know from the drawing, Roving, but it got on fire in the September and. I never went back then and father was right poorly. He died of cancer of the gullet. He'd been in Cookridge and that and they sent for me after I buried him to go back, and I thought, "I've got to seventy-one why should I work and there's all those, and I'd never claimed anything." Someone once said, "Put in for a rate rebate." Do you know what we got? Five pence. You see, we'd both us pensions. He'd six pound fifty and I'd six pounds, so that was thirteen pounds and I earned about four pound part-time, and somebody said, "You want to put in for a rebate," and we got five pence, so that were it. I have it somewhere. I don't know where it is now.

Q. Can you tell me a bit about working in the Mill? How did you get on with the Overlookers?

A. Oh, you what? There were some villains. When we were children there were. First you'd sweep out all the dirty waste, sort it, and they'd be up and down the alley with an alley strap and if they felt like it they'd give you a crack, you know. What they called Alley Strap, keeping the alley clean and you daren't, you daren't talk, and there were no canteens, Nowhere to make tea right. You used to take your mashings in a bit of newspaper. Tea, sugar and a bit of Swiss Milk in the middle. You had to sit on the floor in the Belt Hole, what they called the Belt Hole in them days. There were no canteens or owt, and then the jobber lads, they used to call 'em jobber lads, come round to see if we wanted owt from the Fish Shop at dinner time. and you'd happen get a pennorth of chips if you'd a penny or whatever it was in the hard up days, and that vas it. It was awful. You daren't look round for 'em, you know. "You!" They never called your name or owt. You daren't stand a minute, but it's altered a lot. You never had a buffet to sit on or anything. You were lucky if you got a box to F-it on at dinner time. If not you'd to sit on the floor in what they called the Belt Hole, so that's all.

Q. When you went back in the ninety-thirties to work.

A. Yes.

Q. How different was it?

A. Well, it wasn't much different, but you had a bit more of your own rope. You could tell 'em what to do, because you could walk out of one Mill and go next door and get another job. You could get a job anywhere.

Q. In the ninety thirties?

A. Just before the war, yes. Oh, yes, I mean, you could get a job anywhere, and even after.

Q. And did people do that?

A. Oh, ay, it "they felt like it they did. I've done it myself. (laughs) Tell 'em what to do with it and think, "Oh, blow you," and go and get a job somewhere else where you can get on, and that was it. And then I gave up again after another illness and I went to work at G.E.C. at mornings, top of Ingleby Road where Gratton is now. Cable-forming, I worked there half days till it finished and then I stopped at hone a bit again, and then I went to work at Radio Rentals just starting up in Manchester Road. Just started up in Manchester Road before it was called Bairds or owt, you know. You used to go up some steps by the coal yard. I think it's a garage there now. I don't know with not being out, you see, but that's where it was.

Q. You worked most of your life at Cannon Mills?

A. Well, I think I worked there the longest, yes.

Q. Can you remember when you got a canteen at Cannon Mills?

A. No. They never got a canteen while I was there.

Q. Did you have any outings?

A. No. You mean.....

Q. Trips?

A. No. They did at Bulmer and Lumb’s didn't they? They used to do that, but not there, not at Cannon Mills.

Q. What kind of people were they like to work for?

A. Well, I worked for Walter Moore. He was all right, a bit strict like, clever. They show their authority, don't they? But you'd to stick up to them, like.

Q. Did you have mates in the Mill?

A. Oh, ay, hundreds. Someone pulled my daughter up, and I hadn't seen her for thirty year. She was in the town. She said, "I was in the town this afternoon and she says it like me, like. She said, "And this woman come to me and said, 'Hello, it's Nelly, isn't it?'" And she said, "I looked at her," and she said, "Who?" she said, "You're Nelly, aren't you?" She said, "No." She said, "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were Nelly McGrath," that were me. She said, "No, but I'm her daughter, Nelly." "Oh," she said, "Oh, I can't believe it," she said. "Ooh, I can picture your mother now," she said, "When your mother used to go up and down them sides and we worked together. I haven't seen her for thirty year." I wouldn't know her I don't think, and she thought my daughter were me. (Laughs) I must be getting to look an old so and so.

Q. Do you still keep in touch with any of your friends from the Mills?

A. No, not going out, you see, I don't see nobody. As I say I've had illness and I've this broken hip and that and I've always arthritis in my spine, that's what does me more than owt, so..... Mr. Jepson said he couldn't do owt with it. My spine's gone to sponge, but I just keep going, I don't bother. But I did see one. She went to the old folks home up there and asked somebody up there, and somebody there said she lived in this flat and showed tier where I lived. I don't think I'd seen her for about forty years. Ooh, I couldn't get over it. It was a right surprise. Me wont mates when we were kids, like, when we were about sixteen. I said, "I can't yet over it looking at her. I thought, "Well," and it war; lovely to see her after all those years, you know, and she got on talking about when we used to go promming and all that on Market Street and it was lovely to see her.

Q. What was it like promming on Market Street?

A. Well, we used to walk from one end to the other copping on.

Q. Copping on?

A. They used to call it copping on. They called it promming, yes, yes.

Q. Shipley Glen was a long way to go to.....

A. Easter, it was always the place to go at Easter, Shipley Glen. You used to walk over and the Shipley Glen Tramway was there and then there was Dick Hudson's and all that. We used to go a few of us.

Q. Everybody?

A. Well, it used to be the thing at that time, you used to take the children with you. When you were married we used to take the children at Easter Monday. It was a day out, you see, and go to Shipley Glen.

Q. What did you get at Dick Hudson's?

A. Well, you used to be able to get a little meal and then there was another old place at the top where you used to be able to get a sandwich or owt from, you know. but it used to be lovely. You used to get the Iran to Victoria Road at Saltaire and then walk down Victoria Road and right’ across the Glen. It was really, it was nice weather it was a real Easter Monday out for the kids and all.

Q. And that was where you met your husband?

A. Oh, yes, going over Shipley Glen. (Laughs)

Q. Well. will you tell me about the chain-horse lads then?

A. Well. the only thing I can tell you about the chain-horse lads is when they got a heavy load on they'd come with the horse and they'd have a chain on and they'd chain' U to the shafts of the other horse to pull the heavy load, and.....

Q. And where did they used to be?

A. From Bridge Street. Was it Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway? Bridge Street where the exchange...... Eh?

Q. L.N.E.R.?

A. L.N.E.R., yes And they all used to come up Nelson Street to the Wool Warehouses piled up with big bales of wool, and they used to come to help 'em out if they'd got a heavy load did the chain-horse lads, yes.

Q. And did you talk to the chain-horse lads?

A. Well, we knew a lot of them, you know, you know, you now how you talk to 'em. You knew 'em all, because we all went to school together and lived all round here, so we knew a lot of them.

Q. And what else can you remember about horses in Bradford?

A. Well, I can remember we used to stop at that trough, and there used to be a trough near the Lister's Arms for the horses. Horse trough there used to be when we were children. There was one at Packington Street by the Lister's Arms. I don't know whether it's still there. I don't 'know if it is. I still remember that.

Q. Can you remember any processions when you were young? Processions or activities, Armistice Night or anything like that.

A. Well, I can remember when the 1914 war finished, when they all met in the town, and all dancing and singing in Town Hall Square there. When the Armistice was signed and they were all dancing and singing in the town, you know, I can remember that, and when it was the first time the cenotaph were, when they all gathered round there, you know, when it was the first time the cenotaph was put up, day of Remembrance. I don't know what year that was put up.

Q. No, I don't.

A. It was after the first war, just after, wasn't it?

Q. Was it a big parade?

A. Yes, there was the Lord Mayor and all them, you know. I can't remember clearly, but I can remember the night Armistice was signed, you know, when the war was over. Town was full and the lights went on and everyone was dancing and singing. The song was "Abie, my boy, what are you waiting for now?"

Q. Did you go to Sunday School when you were a child?

A. No, I went to Church. I'm a Catholic; I went to St. Joseph's. They still come to see me now, but I can't get on. No, we always went to St. Joseph's, Mass and that, you know.

Q. Can you remember any events from the Church when you were a child?

A. What sort of events?

Q. Your Confirmation?

A. Oh, first Communion, first Holy Communion and all that, yes. You used to have a veil on and that, you know, and make your first Holy Communion, and then you got Confirmed two or three years after, BO I can remember that, like. I've always gone to St. Joseph 'n.

Q. Did you have any Youth Clubs or.....?

A. Well, they started them a long time after we left school after the First War, Guilds and all that, you know, Mothers' Guilds and all that sort of thing. Nay, I didn't.

Q. That was after the First World War?

A. Well, I can remember a lot of them getting together, you know, like Children of Mary and Holy Angels and that. It's like a Youth Club, wasn't it that? But I didn't.

Q. Can you remember the Church helping you in any way when you were young?

A. Well, when we were kids..... You see_ where that school's built there, it was an old cemetery church yard, and there used to be a women's sewing guild. They used to make overalls and give them to the poor children, you know. I can remember that on at St. Joseph's, before that school was built at all. Because all round here, all on here were posh people, and look at it now. But that's all I can.....

Q. Can you remember any of the posh people in Little Horton?

A. Well, the Headmaster lived on Elizabeth Street, they called him Jack Rice there was Mr. Lynch - they lived in George's Place , big house on there, and there was

Q. Who was Mr. Lynch?

A. He was the ex-Headmaster, he's dead, and then there was Boyland's lived here, this big end house, they were big people in the Parish here, and. McQueen’s, and there were all them and they were all better off class people than us, you see. And then Park Road Homo, it was an old home there, it wasn't like that now. It was an old building with a big iron gate. Poor kids when they used to go in at night. My father was always going to put us in there. They used to shave your hair off and everything.

Q. Did they?

A. Well, they cut it to keep you clean I expect, you know, and you'd have heavy boots on or clogs.

Q. Why did the children have to go in there?

Q. Why did the children have to go in there?

A. Well, they were that poor a lot of 'em. A lot had no parents and this was in Park Road. It used to frighten you when you were kids. I'll put you in Park Road if you don't behave yourself.

Q. You went to St. Augustine's, didn't you say?

A. No.

A. St. Joseph's.

Q. St. Joseph's, I'm sorry. Were the teachers nuns?

A. Yes. Mother Agnes; is still living, but she didn't teach me. She came just after I left. But it was Mother Leah when I was there. She was nice. They were nice, some, and some wasn't, but there have always been nuns on at St. Joseph's. There were never nuns at St. Anne's, no. There have always been nuns here.

Q. Do you still go to the Catholic, oh, you said they come to visit you, don't you.

A. They come to, they bring me Communion, yes, yes. But my daughters all go and that, you know. They all, although they married non-Catholics they've kept it up as their families, you see. Not religious mania with 'em, but they just believe in their religion and that's it.

Q. There aren't many Catholic Churches in Bradford compared to the other churches.

A. Oh, I don't know. There's St. Mary's, isn't there.

Q. Leeds Road.

A. No. that's St. Peter's up Leeds Road. St. Mary's. What do they call it up. passed the Cathedral. East Parade. St. Mary's? There's St. Anne's over there, there's St. Columbia’s at. on Tong Street there, I think it's St. Columba's, isn't it. there? There's St. Joseph's, there's St. William's in Ingleby Road. there's St. Cuthbert's. is it, at Heaton? There's St. Winifred's at Odnal, there's St. John's up Cooper Lane way. There's a lot of Catholic Churches.

Q. Can you remember them, most of them being built?

A. That one in Leeds Road. ..... I remember them building St. Winifred's because Henry used to go to St. Michael's up Canterbury, but that finished. You see, from St. Joseph's they built St. Michael's and then they built St. Winifred's. It was only a little one at first and, of course, it's a big Church now, and that came out of St. Joseph's, and then St. Blaise's School that originated from St. Joseph's, and then there’s that Clitherow’s isn't there? There's a school there, isn't there?

Q. Up Rhodesway, isn't it?

A. Up Tong Street there.

Q. Edmund Campion?

A. No. that's the other way. They used to call it Clitherow, didn't they?

Q. I can't remember its name.

A. Yorkshire Martyrs, that's what it's called now, Yorkshire Martyrs. They've changed it. It used to be, all our lot used to go to it. Our Julie finished up at St. Joseph's College. She's loft now though. But the others, one goes to St. Winifred's, one goes to St. Blaise's, Tong way the other two, I don't know.

Q. All your grandchildren go to the Catholic Schools.

A. Yes, yes.

Q. How did the Catholics establish these schools?

A. How did they establish them? Well, through, they didn't get owt from the Government for 'em. It's through the Catholics that did it.

Q. They had to collect the money.....?

A. They collect, yes. They have raffles and all stuff like that, you know. You know, if you have it to give you give and if you haven't you don't, but it's a big parish is St. Joseph's. I think it's one of the biggest. And there's St. Patrick's up Westgate, I forgot that. Well, I never! There's St. Brendan's and all, St. Glare's, all them Shipley/Thackley way, isn't .there?

Q. Yes.

A. All them Catholic schools. Friday They'd tick book up, and if you'd got your dole money at Friday. owt left at Saturday night you…

Q,. No.

A. And then you’d go into the green grocer part of the market, they called it the Quack market, it was all in one in them days. You’d go there and get specked apples or specked oranges. You could get ‘em for nearly nowt. You thought you had a right good do and that was it. You made your money spin out best way you could. You’d get a sheep’s head in pearl barley milk and take the eyes out and see you through the week. (laughs)

Q. Everybody would be saying that, wouldn’t they?

INTERVIEW ENDS ABRUPTLY