Session Start: Tue Mar 18 19:58:05 1997
*** Now talking in #Web-O-Crats
<Troi-> Hi Jeff!
<Counselor> Howdy!
<Troi-> Thanks.. for the ops.. 
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<Troi-> Well, I got my challenge done and posted
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<Counselor> You're welcome..  ;)
*** Troi- changes topic to "Private Study Group.. Web-O-Crats members 
only.. Please.'"
<Counselor> Thanks Troi.
<Troi-> :) anytime
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<Counselor> Hey, BTW, Troi...I've been meaning to tell you that I was 
   also enrolled in Class 541.
<Troi-> Oh.. you were? What did you think of it?
<Counselor> Unfortunately, I never found a study group, so after the first 
   couple of assignments, I sort of gave it up.
<Troi-> ahhhh
<Counselor> I have the same reaction as you described in one of the 
   previous chats.
<Troi-> I finished my final.. last weekend. It wasnt due till this weekend 
  though...but I wanted to be done with it.
<Troi-> Yea.. not enough feedback from the instructor..  or none...
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<Troi-> Hi Steve!
*** whoo is now known as who
<Counselor> None is more like it...   :(  :(
<Troi-> yea.. exactly
<who> tooo many o's
<who> yea...me tooo
<Counselor> Howdy who...
<who> i am guessing you are asking about answers
<who> to your email?
<Counselor> Nope...we're talking about class 541
<Troi-> LOL who.. we were talking about the lack of feedback in class 541..
<who> oh
<who> never mind
<who> what is 541?
<Counselor> Guilty conscience?
<Troi-> hehehh
<who> of course...i'm Jewish
<Troi-> 541 was the creative writing class I took
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<Troi-> Hi Sasha!
<Counselor> Hi Sasha
<Lexa> Hello everyone
<who> I just sent out an email with a diagram on it...watch for it
<who> so we might discuss it
<Counselor> A diagram?
<who> i was going to post it but i ran out of time
<who> a kind of site map
<who> showing links and layouts
<Counselor> Well, who, you're going to have to describe it for me...  :P
<who> is there an ez way to post a word file ...does PRE work?
<Troi-> in email?
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<Troi-> Hi Ya Paul!
<RiffRaff> hi Pattie!
<who> well theres a box with an area to another box then seven more 
   arrows to seven more boxes connected to seven ....
<Counselor> Well, if you save the file as an ASCII file it can be posted in 
   email.
<who> ovals...fooled you
<who> no...a way to post a word doc to a web page?
<Counselor> Again, save it as an ASCII file and use <pre>
<Troi-> yes.. you can cut and paste from your word processor and use the 
  Pre.
<who> i'll try
<Counselor> Howdy Riff.
<Troi-> I have done it from WordPerfect
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<Troi-> It has to be basic though..
<RiffRaff> hi Jeff..Steve....
<who> troi...cut and paste pictures?
<Troi-> HI Jersey
<JerseyL> hi
<Troi-> oh..pictures.. ummmm.. Im not sure about that..
<Counselor> Hi JerseyL.
<Counselor> I can almost guarantee that you'll not be able to preserve the 
   formatting.  After all, it's not likely to even look the same in all browsers.
<Troi-> this is true Jeff...
<who> never mind probably won't fit in your mail boxes anyway...let me 
   attempt to describe it in words
<who> everyone close your eyes
<Troi-> LOL
<Counselor> Except me, of course...  :P
<Troi-> How are we supposed to read what you describe then?... heheheh
<who> picture this...first screen.//
<who> i didn't want to say that lawman
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<who> first screen...which should be the index.html in place or current one
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<Counselor> Ok, I'm following you so far.. 
<who> would be a splash screen with Web-O-Crats and maybe thumbnail 
   pix of us or others...but small enuff (k-wise) to load rapidly
<who> which dissolves to our main page
<Troi-> gotcha so far
<Counselor> Sounds good so far.
<who> main page has the class intro, group intro, project outline, and 
   links to other pages -to be described -
<Troi-> sounds good
<who> class intro describes V.U. and 825
<Counselor> BTW, who, before you get into this too far...will you log this 
   since Carol isn't here yet?
<who> group intro describes, briefly, us
<who> ok
<who> project intro...is the thingie someone (jeff, paul?) wrote about why 
   we are doing this site
<RiffRaff> why?
<RiffRaff> I just remember writing about why we use graphics, and how.
<who> then the links are 1) 10 (?) links to individual pages for each 
   member
<Counselor> I wrote the intro currently on the front page...
<who> 2) 1 link to interactive page for reader to answer same questions
<RiffRaff> I knew that couldnt have been mine.
<who> 3) 1 link to our current class project page which has been revised 
   /maybe not/ to not repeat whats already been described
<who> from that last page we can link to homework and logs and 
   suggested links
<who> Then from each of the 10 people pages it is each ones 
   responsibility to have their own "meaningful" site linked in
* RiffRaff nods
<Counselor> Do you mean the individual project pages?
<who> this way...if i can convince leaps and catlady...we can separate 
   group from indi's as far as project completion
<who> yes counselor
<Troi-> indi's?
<RiffRaff> individuals. :)
<Troi-> ahh
<RiffRaff> thats a film term. :)
<who> eventually...i would like to see us have "guest" pages linked to 
   intro page
<who> interviewing people "who make a page that makes a difference"
<Counselor> Eventually?  That raises the question of the future of this 
   page...
<Troi-> Do we have time to all this before the end of class?
<who> indi is lazy for individual
<who> C: if we get it done right I would like to see it perpetuated
<who> or perpetrated
<who> or purple
<who> or something
<who> Troi: group should be responsible for everything up to indi pages
<RiffRaff> done? :)
<who> mostly
<RiffRaff> Indi...Asps...very dangerous.  You go first.
<Troi-> well Who, you know that some people still have a lot of work to do 
  on the Java lesson.. 
<who> now one problem i have is that i don't have the time nor expertise 
   (sp?) to do the splash and fade
<who> only real work that hasn't been done is the new front door
<Counselor> I don't know how to do a "fad" but I can do a push.
<Counselor> fade, that is.
<who> c: thats what i meant really
<JerseyL> What do you mean by indi page--is that our "meet the 
   members"?? as opposed to our page that makes a difference.
<who> i would like to see also us use the lake on either the splash or the 
   entry
<RiffRaff> Has anyone found any Java tutorials yet?
<who> yes...lots
<Counselor> That was your job, Riff...  :)
<Troi-> I put a link of a good javascript and applet testing page up on the 
  link to Java.. on our front page
<who> i'd have to look at where i used indi
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<who> i'm still having a prob with my cgi...but I AM GOING TO PREVAIL
<RiffRaff> Well, I knew it was my job, I just wanted to make sure no one 
   had done it for me.. :(  Which Steve did, of course...you peanut. :)
<who> hey...its Bobby Heanon
<Counselor> heh...
<who> gone
<who> never mind me
<who> anyway....i use indi page as those that are the personal project
<who> and mtm for the meet the members
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<who> only sometimes i get carried away and forget...so don't hesitate to 
   ask me
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<Troi-> Paul, Who just said he found some.. you have to find some too.. :)
<RiffRaff> Troi: I dunno who just said they found some...who did? :(
<Troi-> Who did..
<who> first base
<RiffRaff> OH...you mean WHO!
<RiffRaff> ok..I'm sorry...
<Troi-> I came across a bunch when I was doing net searches for my 
  terminology challenge
<RiffRaff> stop it. :)
* Sound request: can't find [haha.wav]
[who SOUND]
<Troi-> LOL.. thats ok Paul.. heheh
<RiffRaff> Alright, then it's up to me to find 5 or so sites that are off the 
   beaten path then.
<who> and no fair finding ones we already found!!!
<Troi-> I do have my assignment posted on the homework page.. The 
  challenge on describing JDK, AWT, JavaScript, Applets.. etc..
<who> they won't count...bleah!
<RiffRaff> I might as well get started right now... :(
<RiffRaff> who: oh, thats cheating! :)
<who> don't go away mad...
<who> !1,8:)!
<RiffRaff> who: but...I guess I have to look on the bright side of things...in 
   two days of my job, I've made $460. :)
<Troi-> Cool Paul.. congrats
<Counselor> Whew...!
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<who> dcc me
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<RiffRaff> it feels good to work again *happy sigh and purrr*
<who> What you mean you...we are a syndicate!
<RiffRaff> but that leaves me less time to work on my business at home. :(
<Troi-> Well, are we going to talk about Challenge #1... as we need to do 
  as a group?
<who> !13Shall we discuss #1 now?
<who> !1 1!!2 2!!3 3!!4 4!!5 5!!6 6!!7 7!!8 8!!9 9!!10 10!!11 11!!12 12!!13 13!!14 14!!15 15!!
<Troi-> LOL same thought
<Counselor> So, Sasha and Lindsa, you have been quiet.  What do you 
   want to work on?
<who> Troi-...can you summarize #1
<RiffRaff> Let's do that...at least I can participate that way.
<Troi-> whew.. ummm ... ummm.. lets see.
<Troi-> Give reasons to have.. or not have javascript on your page.. same 
  with applets
<JerseyL> I've looked at some applets and java script and have not really 
   seen much I think is worthwhile.
<who> my first question is...do all browsers support java/script
<Counselor> Well, I'd rather use javascript when possible rather than 
   aplets...they are less invasive.
<Troi-> I think one of the big drawbacks, is the time it takes to load on the 
  page.. lots of people just get bored waiting.. they want to see something 
  right away
<who> i agree Troi
<JerseyL> Does anyone have an example of a page that uses Javascript 
   or applet well?
<Troi-> I think the Lake Applet is really cool.. but takes a little bit to load..  
  I wouldnt want to have to go through that everytime I load a page to see 
  whats new on it
<who> Q: is there a way to design page so that you can be certain that 
   there is something to read while jave or sound or pix are loading?
<RiffRaff> I've come across a few pages, and frankly, I've not really paid 
   much attention to the applets...I DO like the chat/talk applets now 
   popping up, but in my humble opinion, we're being bored to 
   death...everything visual and graphical has been done, and frankly, we 
   really don't find them so pleasing anymore.
<Counselor> No, who, not all browsers support them...alternatives always 
   need to be provided.
<Counselor> I mean, *not* all browsers support them.
<Troi-> you are right Paul.. people are looking for the information more 
  these days I think
<who> however...
* RiffRaff nods.
<who> !3i will bet that you have used applets that u don't realize u r using
<who> !3those r the ones that work right!
<Troi-> Unless you specifically go to a page that has the applets and 
  graphics you want to look at.. like a Graphics Web page.. with hundreds 
  of graphics to choose from
<JerseyL> I liked the lake applet; but has anyone seen any used where it 
   is really effective.
<who> fact...java can replace cgi forms when you don't have cgi 
   authority...i think...in certain cases
<RiffRaff> When Java first came out, and we saw bouncing balls on our 
   screen, we thought "oooh, hey these are cool!", but now we've seen SO 
   many examples, the best applets are those that do a useful function, 
   like a pleasing counter, a chat applet, etc.
<Troi-> Linda.. I havent.. it is pretty and you go.. ahhhhh..neat.. but then 
  what.. what's the purpose besides looking cool..  Do we want to furnish 
  informations.. or be a pretty page
<who> !3Yes...counters, guest books, forms, 
<who> !3how about the ability to give popup info on buttons
<JerseyL> do you have an example of popup info?
* RiffRaff nods to Troi. "Exactly...Let's face it; Java graphics are reaching 
  the end of their fad. We humans become bored easily. That's why you 
  can go into any store and get an Atari 2600 machine for 25 bucks now."
<Troi-> True Paul..
<Troi-> sad.. but true
<who> !3trying to remember...you know how you get names in win95 when 
   your cursor rests on a button?...i've seen that done on web page info
<RiffRaff> yeah, now THOSE are a great idea.
<RiffRaff> I HAVE seen those, several times...but I don't think it's done 
   with Java is it?
<Troi-> ahh. .. like my modem icon at the bottom of the screen.. I rest my 
  mouse on it.. and info about the modem pops up.. is that what you mean 
  Who?
<JerseyL> I can't picture what you are talking about.
<who> !3also, i think you can alter page content using java
<who> T: yes
<RiffRaff> thats right, Troi.
<who> !3
<Troi-> cool.. thanks Paul.
<RiffRaff> de nada. :)
<Troi-> :)
<who> !3My personal fave at the moment is using java enhanced lists as 
   links...i am trying to use java to control the mtm links
<RiffRaff> who: are those effects done in Java, or HTML?
<Troi-> what about security issues of java based information gathering 
  script..
<who> depends on which ... i'm typing faster than i can read or think
<RiffRaff> Troi: uhh...run that by me again?
<JerseyL> I think I'm not sure what java is?  What will the difference 
   between a regular list and java enhanced be?
<Troi-> Well, we are supposed to discuss the security risks involved 
  using Java Applets and JavaScript
<who> T: i'm not sure what that means...i haven't read up on that
<Counselor> Security is one of the reasons I prefer Javascript over aplets.
<who> C: espouse
<who> pleeze
<Troi-> I am really not sure about the potential security risks either.. don't 
  know that much about it.. but I guess its there
<RiffRaff> Well, let's answer Jersey's question first.
<JerseyL> thanks
<RiffRaff> I'd like to know too, what IS a java enhanced list?
<Troi-> Counselor.. what is the difference in the security between the two?
<RiffRaff> Well, I DO know that if you place index.html in your main 
   directory with your pages, they cant be broken into...
<who> brb...i'll get an example
<Counselor> Well, applets are actual programs which will run on your 
   computer.  Javascript is just an extension to html.
<Counselor> It's a scripting language that the browser interprets.
<Troi-> oh I think I see.. the applets actually kinda downloads to your 
  computer.. but the Java script stays at the web site.. kinda.. is that right?
<RiffRaff> ok, so what does a java enhanced list look like?
<RiffRaff> I probably saw one.
<who> !3okay...let me try to describe
<Troi-> You have more of a chance of unknowingly unleashing a virus on 
  your PC if you get a applet someone has played with so to speak
<Counselor> You could think of it that way.  The applet is a program that 
   is downloaded to your computer like any program.  The javascript is just 
   some fancy html which is interpretted by the browser.
<Troi-> ahhh.. I see the potential security risk now.. 
<JerseyL> Do you all remember the "under construction" applet June told 
   us about at the beginning of class??
<who> down the left hand side of the page is our names...as the browser 
   crosses a name it is highlighted or makes a noise or changes to 
   description or ...
<RiffRaff> ok, so technically...someone can download a virus right onto 
   our system using an applet...that's kinda scary. :)  if someone comes up 
   with a fabulous web page that EVERYONE looks at...*shudder*
<Troi-> yes Linda.. I remember her talking about it
<Troi-> Yeah Paul.. it is scary... 
<who> no linda...what?
<JerseyL> It was cute--a drill with a lot of noise.  So that would have to be 
   downloaded to the computer???
<Troi-> Having a cool applet might make some people NOT want to visit 
  our page.. because they think it might be a risk.
<JerseyL> I was in it today checking out applets.
<RiffRaff> so, basically what we can conclude is...we're pretty much 
   taking our chances everytime we click the mouse to go to a URL. 
<RiffRaff> which is why Microsoft wants to design a non-browsing browser.
<Troi-> Linda.. I think it downloads temporarily into your PC so you can 
  view it.. stays in the buffer.. then goes away when you log out
<who> btw: here is an interesting story i came across: 79 ways to build a 
   better Web 
<who> http://www.zdnet.com/wsources/content/current/feature1.html
<Troi-> Unless you have your Java Enable checked to off Paul.
<RiffRaff> exactly..but how many users will KNOW this?
<who> i don't think that is the case...while you are browsing is the java 
   executing on your PC?
<Troi-> You wont get to see the applets.. but you would feel safe
<RiffRaff> Internet Explorer has Java set to On at install.
<Counselor> So does NS
<Troi-> Mine is set to off all the time unless I specifically go in and 
  change it to on .. 
<RiffRaff> I think this is some mad plot for Bill Gates to take over the 
   world. :)
<Troi-> LOL Paul
<JerseyL> The only site I ever saw where I really loved java was the 
   superbowl.
<JerseyL> Did anyone see it on the computer?
<RiffRaff> if Anyone finds out anything more on this "non-browsing" 
   browser, could you let me know?  I'm interested in what MS is up to.
<Troi-> I did't Linda..
<who> Non-browsing means everything will be push technology
<RiffRaff> they said CDF, or something?
<Counselor> I'm still having trouble conceptualizing this..
<Counselor> The non-browsing broser,that is.
<RiffRaff> I dunno...Jeff or Steve sent me an email about it.
<RiffRaff> Who, was it you? :)
<who> musta been jeff
<who> okay it was me...
<Counselor> It was who?
<RiffRaff> I tried to visit the site and i couldnt get through.
<who> i've got to change my nick!
<who> which site?
<Troi-> LOL
<RiffRaff> the site about the non-browsable browser...
<RiffRaff> which kinda throws me for a loop.
<who> next year i'll be.....nobody
<who> you don't remember the site...brb
<Counselor> So, anyway, what do we want to do with our pages?  
   javascript? applets? Neither?
<RiffRaff> no, I don't remember the site...
<Troi-> I vote JavaScript Yes.. Applets no.. except the one Carol is doing 
  for the homework
<Counselor> I dont' mind using favascript, but I'd just as soon stay awayu 
   from applets.
<Counselor> sheesh...javascript
<RiffRaff> well...we dont want to do weird graphics and the like, so I go 
   with you guys...applets are too complex for what we're trying to show. :)
<who> the one about the future of the net?
<JerseyL> Most of the applets I saw were pretty weird.
<Counselor> Yeah, JerseyL, that's not our purpose, I dont think.
<RiffRaff> Who?
<RiffRaff> did you just send me a 4 meg email file?
<who> i see no need for applets...its another way to LIMIT your 
   audience...not the goal of web designers
<Troi-> I agree
<who> R: i tried to cancel that...that was the diagram
<who> you can x it...same to all
<Troi-> People that come to  99% of the web pages.. want the information.. 
  and they want it fast.
<who> !1 1!!2 2!!3 3!!4 4!!5 5!!6 6!!7 7!!8 8!!9 9!!10 10!!11 11!!12 12!!13 13!!14 14!!15 15!!
<RiffRaff> Thank you...that's going to take like forever to download to my 
   mailer. :) *thwap*
<RiffRaff> thats so true...
<who> !4/me blushes
* RiffRaff deletes.
<Troi-> And they don't want to take security risks... It would be a good way 
  for people to spread the word NOT to visit your page
<Troi-> and that is not what we want
<who> i thought i stopped it when i saw the size...guess it escaped
<Troi-> yes it did who. . I started to get it too.. and canceled.. :)
<RiffRaff> who: what WAS it anyways? :)
<Counselor> Ok, so no applets except for our assignments.
<Troi-> agreed
<RiffRaff> a manual or somethin'??
<RiffRaff> Coun: right..
<Troi-> well, I think we got #1 all talked out.. :)
<Counselor> Yup..
<RiffRaff> ok, lets move on, we're on a roll. :)
<RiffRaff> and my head is steadily slipping to the desk now and then...
<Counselor> So, back to my question...JerseyL and Sasha?  What do you 
   want to work on?
<who> a picture of me in the buff
<RiffRaff> that is, unless who wants to email me the complete works of 
   Shakespeare or something. :)
<Troi-> I have to go soon.. have to get to sleep.. have a presentation of 
  the office web page for the Pres and Vice Pres of the company tomorro.
<JerseyL> What's open 2 and 6?  Is someone doing something with the 
   lake applet?
<Troi-> no.. I think we just decided the only applet we will have is Carols.. 
  for the homework assignment
<Counselor> Yes, 2 and 6 is open.  Nobody is doing anything with th 
   elake.
<who> T: i will be with you!
<JerseyL> What is Carol's applet?
<Troi-> Thanks who.. :)
<JerseyL> Maybe I can do something with the lake applet for #6 and 
   explain it.
<Troi-> I don't know Linda.. she hasnt posted it yet
<Counselor> I'm not sure what her applet is?  Does anyone know?
<RiffRaff> yeah Troi, he'll email a pic of him in the buff, and you can keep 
   it close to you while doing the presentation...LOL. :)
<Troi-> LOL.. that should make me real calm for the presentation..LOL
<Counselor> Ok, JerseyL...do you think you could do that?
<RiffRaff> well, they say "picture everyone naked". :)
<Troi-> #6 is teaching how it was done to the group.. 
<JerseyL> I'm not really sure I can do it, but I can try to figure it out.
<JerseyL> or should I do #2??
<Counselor> Well, I suppose I could explain the browser identification 
   script that I did.
<Counselor> What was 2 again?
<Counselor> it's realy your choise linda.
<Troi-> I dont know if we want to put the lake applet on our pages though.. 
  maybe link to it.. and let people decide if they want to take the time to 
  see it. .. also I think maybe we should post a warning about some of the 
  security risks of applets somewhere..
<RiffRaff> I know what I could do...I could compare the Java tutorials i 
   found and judge them in 5 different categories?  sort of a Gene 
   Siskel/Roger Eggbert thing?
<RiffRaff> er Ebert. :)
<Troi-> Wow.. sounds good Paul.. I think that would be great..
<Troi-> Good Idea
<RiffRaff> why did I say Eggbert?
* RiffRaff thinks his mind is slowly dimming to black.
<JerseyL> I still don't understand how you could get a virus by viewing a 
   page with an applet such as the lake.
<Counselor> Ok, Riff...maybe you could work on that and I'll take number 
   6 and explain the scipt I did.
<Troi-> kinda judge them on say.... easy of understanding... content.... 
  useful information.. etc..
<RiffRaff> Counselor: gotcha.. I wont let ya down. :)
<RiffRaff> Troi: right...
<RiffRaff> Troi: plus...is it funny... :)
<RiffRaff> Troi: is it enjoyable to read..etc.
<Counselor> Well, JerseyL, you probably wont' get a virus fromthe lake. 
   But since applets are programs, someone could write an applet that 
   would contain a virus.
<Troi-> LOL.. that would be kinda neat to make it humourous as well.. 
  should get some visitors that way.. :)
<RiffRaff> humor is the key to information these days..everyone wants to 
   laugh.
<Troi-> true.. true
<who> Jersey: I don't see it either
<RiffRaff> OH...someone remind me!  I want to share a poem I found about 
   cloning sheep in Scotland... I was going to make a copy of it for who. :)
<who> C: but i think YOU would have to load the applet to your site to get 
   a virus...not just view it
<Counselor> The problem is not with *good* applets.   But what if you 
   went to a page where someone wrote a virus applet and it automatically 
   downloaded into your computer and executed?
<who> C: i don't see how!
<JerseyL> That could happen to anybody couldn't it?
<Counselor> But, who, applets are programs...they *run* on your 
   computer.
<who> No No NO
<who> I need to be convinced...that is way to simple...it would have been 
   done already
<RiffRaff> who says its NOT been done? :)
<RiffRaff> who's to say there's not a virus inside our machines right 
   NOW?
<Troi-> yes.. I have a description of an Applet on the Challenge #5 I have 
  on the homework #8 page
<who> see I say its NOT bee done
* RiffRaff stands far away from everyone else.
<JerseyL> I agree with you who
<Troi-> they are executable programs
<JerseyL> McAfee says there is no virus in my machine right now.
<RiffRaff> applets are executable programs, gang...that makes them 
   potential viruses. :)
* Troi- nods
<Troi-> mark the word POTENTIAL.. not all are.. but could be.. do you want 
  to take the chance is what this is all about
<RiffRaff> we want to take the chance. 
<who> have you heard about the McAfee virus?
<Troi-> LOL who
<Counselor> It would have to be a deliberate thing..someone would have 
   to consciencously write a virus applet.
<JerseyL> You are taking a chance when you download anything
<Troi-> yes you are.. but usually you virus check when you download.. at 
  least I do.. Applets don't ask your permission.. they just execute
<who> !4BTW: I just read about XML an Alternative to HTML...(for real)
<RiffRaff> but if its a NEW virus..you cant see it.
<Counselor> That's somewhat true, JerseyL, but not if you don't execute 
   any programs.
<Counselor> The problem is that applets are automatically executed.
<who> http:www.techweb.com/wire/news/mar/0318xml.html.body?
<who> i typed that so don't trust it
<JerseyL> C:  I realized that after I hit enter :)
<JerseyL> So a virus program would not catch the virus???
<Counselor> Right, J.
<RiffRaff> All it takes for one unnoticeable virus...I hear some websites 
   get 50-100 thousand hits a DAY....
<Counselor> The bottom line is how much you trust the site you are 
   browsing.
<Troi-> thats a good reason to make backups Paul.. :)
<Troi-> True Jeff.
<Counselor> Just don't back up the virus...  :)
<Troi-> LOL right Jeff..
<RiffRaff> Troi: backups? :)  haha...have you seen what some viruses do? 
   :)
<Troi-> yes I have Paul.. destroy the hard drive...etc.
<JerseyL> I have to go soon, so what should I do #2??
<Counselor> Sure, JerseyL, why don't you work on number 2.
<JerseyL> ok
<Counselor> So, I'll take number 6 and Linda wil have number 2...that 
   should cover everything.
<RiffRaff> not just destroy the drive, make it completely unusable without 
   disk partitioning. :)
<Counselor> Riff will be ddoing number 4, right Riff?
<Counselor> And, Steve will be implementing his new site design?
<Counselor> Right?
<RiffRaff> righto. :)
<Troi-> Sasha.. do you have a challenge? or are you working with 
  someone?
<RiffRaff> I'll be making up a little tutorial critique, if thats what you asked 
   for.
<Troi-> and you need to make a basic script also Paul.. its in the 
  challenge.. :)
<who> with help....!
<Counselor> Yes, Riff, I think that will probably work to cofr number 4.
<Counselor> Also, who, you'll be catching up on your other past 
   assignments, right?
<who> i think i'm melting down...did someone send me a virus just to 
   prove a point?
<Counselor> Is Sasha still awake?
<RiffRaff> Sasha is logging, Counselor...
<JerseyL> I have to go, good night.
<Troi-> Night Linda!
<who> Sasha tends to log and sleep...it is 4 am there
<who> nite linda
<Counselor> Goodnight J.
<Troi-> I have to go now too... see ya all on Friday!
*** Quits: JerseyL (Leaving')
*** Joins: BEAR
*** Parts: BEAR
<Counselor> Ok, I should be taking off as well.  Who, will you post this 
   log?
<Troi-> Bye.. sweet dreams.. and God Bless
Session Close: Tue Mar 18 21:30:35 1997


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{\colortbl\red0\green0\blue0;}
\deflang1033\pard\plain\f4\fs20 Session Start: Fri Mar 21 17:54:02 1997
\par *** Now talking in #Web-O-Crats
\par > many apologies
\par <Counselor> Howdy who..
\par > bad timing
\par <Lexa> Hi Steve
\par <JerseyL> hi steve
\par *** Troi- sets mode: +o who
\par <Troi-> Hi Who!
\par > anything much happen yet?
\par <JerseyL> I was just discussing how I hate java
\par > try decaf
\par <JerseyL> So Jeff--if I use a java applet, do I not need a .java
\par > i am not supposed to be here (on the computer) right now
\par > family affair
\par <Counselor> Yes, Linda..that is correct as I undrstand it.
\par <JerseyL> uh oh! Steve
\par > Jersey: that is as i understand it too
\par <JerseyL> but you need a .class
\par <Counselor> Yes..
\par <Counselor> The .class is the applet program.
\par <JerseyL> what else do you need besides the <applet> and </applet>
\par <Counselor> Well, you need the .class and any other files that the applet 
\par    uses, such as images or sounds, etc.
\par <Counselor> It depends on the applet.
\par <Counselor> Who, where are you supposed to be if not here?  =)
\par <JerseyL> If you go to an applet and want to use it, go into the source code 
\par    and download it, then what--put it into your html page?
\par <Counselor> And linda, you need to specify in the html any parameters that 
\par    the applet expects...again, that depends on the applet.
\par > Family gathering...extended family...some minor ocassion like my birthday
\par <Counselor> Um, yes, I think you could do that if you know what other files 
\par    you'd need to retrieve from the place where you get the applet.
\par > they won't miss me for a while
\par <Troi-> Happy Birthday Who!!!!!!
\par <JerseyL> Happy Birthday!!!\'031,8:)
\par <Counselor> Yeah, happy birthday, who...besides...I can't a imageine a better 
\par    birthday gift than to spend your birthday with us.
\par <JerseyL> talking about java LOL
\par <Lexa> Happy Birthday from me too, Steve
\par > haha
\par > so you all stop talking?
\par -> [who] PING
\par <JerseyL> I still get Java Script, applets, and java somewhat mixed up.
\par <JerseyL> When I saw the Superbowl on the computer was that java?
\par <Counselor> I'm not sure, J, but probably was java
\par <Troi-> Twister.. did you want something?
\par <JerseyL> I also went to Java Chat and wasn't that impressed.  What's 
\par    supposed to be so great about it?
\par *** TWISTER was kicked by Counselor
\par <Troi-> thankyou Jeff
\par <Counselor> Go ahead and ban him troi.
\par <Troi-> that was starting to get real annoying..
\par <Troi-> ok.. I will if he joins again
\par *** Troi- sets mode: +b *!*java@*.ipoline.com
\par *** TWISTER was kicked by Troi- (maybe in your universe\'0f)
\par <Counselor> Thanks troi..
\par <Counselor> That annoys me too because I hav eto listen to every one of those 
\par    messages.
\par <Troi-> :) no prob.  he has been banned from the channel.. as long as we are 
\par    in it tonight
\par <Counselor> Well, I've been trying to wolf down a couple of hamburgers while 
\par    chatting, but y'all aren't doing much talking.  :)
\par <JerseyL> How's everyone else's homework coming?
\par <Counselor> JerseyL, are you having trouble with this applet in rrelation to 
\par    your assignment?
\par <Troi-> I have mine done.
\par <JerseyL> sort of
\par <JerseyL> I have a lot of info on Java Script and I have samples of Java 
\par    applets, however,
\par <Counselor> I'll be glad to answer any questions that I can...I'm *really* 
\par    not an expert though... :(
\par > i have linked the cgi page onto the end of our mtm pages...off of my page
\par > however
\par > i am trying to revise the format to make it a selection option instead of 
\par   sequential
\par > first shot is with frames and it is working on my personal page
\par <Counselor> I'll be glad to answer any questions that I can...I'm *really* 
\par    not an expert though... :(Who aand all, did you get Carol's response to 
\par    your proposal?
\par <Counselor> What do y;all think?
\par > yes but i am not sure i agree
\par <Troi-> I think I do agree with Carol.. While I think it's a great idea, we 
\par    still have other things that need to be tended to. 
\par <JerseyL> I think it's a good idea too; however, I think we all need time to 
\par    finish our personal pages in addition to this homework and we are running 
\par    out of time.
\par <Counselor> Ther, my last hamburger is devoured..  :)
\par <JerseyL> Maybe you can help with some questions I have--
\par <Counselor> Anyway, who, I think the bottom line is that we all like your 
\par    proposal, but most of us are feeling that we dont' persoanlly have the 
\par    time to work on it.  
\par <JerseyL> right
\par <Counselor> You yourself stated that you didn't think you could either.  So, 
\par    who would do it?  (pun intended...)
\par <JerseyL> The Java applets I saw were cute and jazzed up pages, some were 
\par    interactive (games).  The question is describe some things java applets 
\par    can do and reasons for using them.  Any comments???
\par > my thinking was that between us all we could do it
\par > i mean someone knows push better thatn i
\par > someone know frames
\par > but...if not...we should still redo the first page somewhat
\par <Counselor> Well, you almost answered it  in your statment... to jazz up a 
\par    page...to run interactive programs...etc.
\par <Troi-> Well who, like we just said, I don't think the rest of us have the 
\par    time.. unfortunately
\par > if only to move logs to a separate page
\par > and increase the meet the members intro
\par > and i thought we agreed to move the sound to the bottom of the page?
\par <Counselor> Actually, who, *you* wanted the sound moved to the top so it 
\par    would load faster...sooner...
\par <Counselor> Honestly, who and all, I don't think any of us would complain if 
\par    any of the others made constructive changes to our site.  If you want to 
\par    update the front page (or any other page) put it on the site and let us 
\par    know about it.  We can look at it and if it lo
\par <Counselor> looks ok we can use it.
\par <Counselor> You could even reconstruct *all* the pages to your 
\par    specifications..just don't rename the index file until we've looked at it. 
\par     Then, once we've seen it all we'd have to do is rename that file and we'd 
\par    have a new look.
\par > Also...does it seem like we have enough room left on the group site?
\par <Counselor> Well, if not, you can use some of my space...I have 5 MB and only 
\par    about 8% is used.
\par <Counselor> I'll even go so far, who, to offer to do the push if you want to 
\par    work on the rest of our site.
\par > okay...what does the push entail?
\par > is that "just" the meta code?
\par <Counselor> It's simple..it can even be done with meta tags (htm) look at our 
\par    push page.
\par > what do you mean by "even" ... is there another way?
\par <Counselor> It can also be done with javascript, but it's not necessary.  
\par    Keep in mind, though, that lynx will not push with either javascript or 
\par    meta tags.
\par > so you must leave a link?
\par > the "if you haven't changed in 40 seconds then click here" type link?
\par <Counselor> the "if you not changed in 40 secs" is the meta tag 
\par    implementation.
\par > and the java?
\par <Counselor> It *does* put up an link in lynx, but it does not actually 
\par    push..one must select the link.
\par <Counselor> Of course, if one uses javascript, lynx will not even recognize 
\par    it.
\par <Counselor> So, the meta solution is the preferred solution.
\par > isn't that a one or two line solution?
\par <Counselor> Unless one *only* wants to push in the case of graphical browsers.
\par > and then???
\par <Counselor> Then the javascript solution is reasonable.
\par > No...i see it as a splash page into the intro page
\par <Counselor> Yes, the meta tag is just a couple of lines..why do you think I 
\par    volunteered to do it for you..  :)
\par > i am about to be delinked myself...
\par > Because you are magnanimous!!!!!
\par > My head will be delinked from my torso...or so it seems
\par > i will leave myself logging
\par <Counselor> Well, in lynx, there will be no ssplash.
\par > thats okay...we don't need them people anyway...
\par *** who is now known as who_log
\par <Counselor> Ok, who...would'nt want you to lose your head over this...  :P
\par > And a Happy Vernal Equinox to you all!!!
\par <Counselor> :)
\par <JerseyL> Enjoy!
\par <Troi-> Party Down!!.. :)
\par <Counselor> Ok, JerseyL, back to your questions...
\par > My schedule (goal) is to be caught up by Tues meeting...that would be 
\par   revised mtm, working cgi, colors page
\par > the extras would be the splash page and the revise or split up intro and 
\par   class pages
\par <Counselor> That would be great, who!
\par <JerseyL> OK--Part c--Are there some tasks for which one of the two is a 
\par    better choice.  Justify that answer with an example of concise explanation.
\par > and i would appreciate any help
\par > logging
\par <JerseyL> I mean OR concise explanation.
\par <Troi-> well, I need to go now.. I have been logging since I was the first 
\par    one on tonight, so I have some of the conversation you don't who. I will 
\par    send my to carol and let her know that you have one with the end of the 
\par    conversation on it. ok?
\par <Counselor> Hmmmm....
\par <JerseyL> good night Pattie
\par <Counselor> Well, the example of the push that I was just discussing is a 
\par    rationale for using meta tags rather than javascript.
\par <Troi-> Good Night all.. and God Bless
\par <Troi-> bye
\par <JerseyL> Most of the java applets I've seen are graphics.
\par <Counselor> Oops...missed her..goodnight anyway, troi.
\par <Counselor> Yes, they probably are.
\par <Counselor> I suppose another reason for using one over the other is security.
\par <Counselor> That gets back to what we discussed Tuesday.
\par <Counselor> It seems to me that the bottom line is what works best for the 
\par    particular application which you're trying to achieve.
\par <JerseyL> With the applets, there is a virus concern and with script I 
\par    believe there is a security concern.
\par <Counselor> Well, actually, the virus and security are the same thing...one 
\par    is concerned about security because of possibly getting a virus.
\par <JerseyL> With Java Script I understand there is a concern about someone 
\par    getting info off of your hard disk.
\par <Counselor> So, one is more concerned with applets because one might contract 
\par    a virus, whereas with favascript there is not that concern.
\par <Counselor> Actually, I think that concern about getting info from you 
\par    rcomputer is with applets, but perhaps it can be done with either.
\par <Counselor> I'm not that versed on javascript.
\par <JerseyL> This is so confusing--I think I saw the concern was with java 
\par    script but recent versions of browsers alleviate that problem.  Not sure 
\par    though.
\par <Counselor> Well, you might be right about that...there has been a lot coming 
\par    about these things an dI'm not that informed myself.
\par <JerseyL> A little off the subject, but Cnet.com has an excellent page this 
\par    week on computer crime--forgery, assault, robbery, etc.
\par <Counselor> Hmmm...interesting...
\par <Counselor> I wish there was something I could say to help you understand 
\par    better..
\par <JerseyL> I've learned a lot since Tuesday; however, I find it frustrating.
\par <JerseyL> Do you know anything about java chat?
\par <Counselor> No...I think it would be difficult for me to use.
\par <JerseyL> I guess that's enough for tonight.  Maybe I'll find out more by 
\par    Tuesday.
\par <Counselor> Ok, I agree...so, we'll see you on Tuesday.  Goodnight.
\par <JerseyL> Good night.
\par Session Close: Sat Mar 21 20:27:41 1997
\par \pard\plain\f3\fs20 
\par }