<2 Jan 99 From: Vick Re: Stress?>

<<The question regards the stress that he already seems to be exhibiting.   I  put a few drops of Rescue Remedy in his water this morning.  What is the life  of RR in water?   Should I give him smaller amounts of water & replenish it each morning?  Or would it be better to put it directly on his food?  Are there any other herbs/flower essences/homeo remedies that would be good for me to look into?>>

jillian, my successes w/ flower essences are pretty limited, at least with the cats. RR knocks me out w/in 15 minutes if i have 4-5 drops in a glass of water. sam seems to mellow out, but he's also locked in a room by himself, so i doubt he gets too froggy.

i seem to remember that it loses effectiveness in water pretty quickly, so when i give it, i just open their mouths and put a few drops on their tongue. it tastes nasty to them, but that's the easiest way for me.

what has worked the best to relieve stress for sam is liquid dosing calms forte. calms forte is a combo homeopathic remedy that works like a charm on sam. here's sandy's description of how to make the liquid dose:

"Basically, like Nancy said, Calms is a combination remedy (tho one I like too) so to be on the safe side, I told Vick to dilute 1 or 2 pills of Calms or Calms Forte in some spring water in a brown dropper bottle. Since the potencies are really low, it's not as likely to cause a proving but after giving it about 3-4 times, u can take one drop of this solution, and mix it w/ 9 drops of spring water.  Then, depending on whether u believe in the 4th Organon or 5th, u would succuss it 10 times or 100 times.  This way u will end up w/ the next highest potency, and  not as likely to aggravate or prove the remedy.  Initially u can dose more frequently but only re-dose if u see any improvement at all; otherwise it's risky to repeat it."

<< a little aside.....waaaaaaay in the back of my head I have vague little thoughts of adopting another kitty.    The hopes, of course, are that Django &  new kitty would be great friends & playmates but that's the luck of the draw isn't it?>>

i think this is a wonderful idea!! the play biting and stuff like that pretty much scream "i need a playmate!" since django is still so young, your potential for problems is pretty low, and i imagine he'd do just fine with a new kitty. do you have frazier's book? she has a great description of the best way to introduce a new kitty to the house. if ya need me to, i'll type it up, but the rainy, humid weather has me feeling lazier than usual... i think i'll make a toasted almond and watch some football :)

I don't know about allergic reactions to Pet Calms--I didn't think that kind of thing was very likely w/ PetCalms or other homeo. remedies. Since Slick's previous episode w/ hair pulling was stress-related, I would suspect that this recent episode is also.

I wonder if other homeopathic treatments would help your guys. I looked up "Spraying" in George Macleod's book _Cats: Homeopathic Remedies_ (pp 104-105), and this part seems to pertain to your guys.

"This distressing complaint is one of the most difficult to deal with involving as it does psychological and emotional disturbances.  A
thorough investigation of the circumstances surrounding this habit may lead to a remedy which could prove useful if only in a palliative
sense.....

In the male cat also the habit may have its origin in territorial marking and if this is thought likely, the remedy USTILLAGO MAYDIS
should be considered, giving it in 200c potency three times per week for 4 weeks.

In the neutered animal the accompanying use of the potentised hormones e.g. FOLLICULINUM, OVARIUM, OESTROGEN and TESTOSTERONE may also have to be considered.  Potencies of 6c to 30c daily for 30 days are usually sufficient to bring about some response, used in conjunction with or after the other remedies mentioned."

There's also a bit about cats who spray right after being altered, but I didn't think this applied to any of your kits.  Cletus might still have
some scarring from the blockage and the catheter--it might still hurt him to pee....I wonder if extra vitamin E would help him or aloe vera in his food?

Also, have you considered any flower essences?  Here's a list of some which might help:

* SPRAYING CATS: Beech, Holly (especially if due to inter-cat conflicts), Willow, Agrimony

I got this info from this website: http://www1.mhv.net/~dca/articles/Bach_Flower_Remedies.html

(I think Evonne posted this earlier.)

<<the Pet Calms or did the PetCalm cause this?????>>

Noreen, from the ingredients, it doesn't seem that any of them would be bad for him tho there is some info at the Iams website about cats not being able to use niacin or something along those lines.  But none of these herbs are harmful as far as I know.

I very much doubt a herbal formula would cause problems.  Tho what Vick said about Valerian seems like the most logical explanation.  Valerian will sometimes get me all wired where I can't fall asleep..so it has the opposite result for me.  maybe w/ him too?

A homeopathic remedy can cause a proving if u use too hi a potency or give it too often.  I'm confused about the 4x by the Valerian b/c that indicates a 4th stage dilution and sucussion but the other herbs are in mg.  I'm not familiar w/ this product; hope someone else is.

Spraying sure is tough to treat and I empathize w/ ya.  Boo Boo had never sprayed but then I brought in a new kitty off the streets who seemed to hate boys.  She started spraying and then he tried to one-up her.  I put her in her own room and the spraying stopped.  We tried for 8 months but every time I'd bring her out, she'd pee again in all sorts of places.  I finally found another home for her where she could be the only cat.  Boo never sprayed again for 2 yrs.  Then he developed CRF and all of a sudden one day many months after i got the younger girls, he went right to their litter box, and sprayed their privacy screen.

I never did break him of the habit completely, and Vick is dealing w/ a tough situation w/ Sam as well.  This is the toughest part of being a cat lover.  It's usually a totally territorial thing.  My advice to u is to make his territory as small as possible e.g. a bathroom .  Then slowly
increase it all the time praising him for using the litterbox and giving extra attention and treats.  Flower essences didn't work for Boo, at
least not the Bach ones.  I didn't try a homeo remedy tho that's always my 1st choice b/c he was getting other remedies for his physical stuff.  Mostly behavioral changes on my part did the trick and we managed to control it, kinda but not completely.

It's a toughie.  Hang in there.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

I have to confess that I've not tried any of the stuff I quoted from Macleod's book, but I believe a potentised hormone would be the hormone in a homeopathic form in tablet or pellet.  *I* would prefer to try that on the kits rather than the Ovaban as I believe I've heard of harsh side effects w/ Ovaban, and homeo. remedies don't carry that risk as far as I know. Sandy and others know much more about homeopathy.... You may have to special order these potentised hormones, too, as I have a feeling they are not something you're local health food/vitamin/herb store would carry even if they do carry homeopathic stuff.

Your FE regimen sounds good, but you might also want to try some quaking grass (for group harmony) in the community water bowl.  You might also examine your own issues w/ Cletus. I take flower essences to help me understand what's going on w/ them.  My favorite one is Cosmos for interspecies communication. (Both Cosmos & Quaking Grass are made by Flower Essence Services.) I also put this in their water bowl. When you were talking about your difficulty bonding w/ Cletus, it reminded me of my relationship to Chloe (our low cat on the totem pole).  I have finally in recent months begun to get closer to her (after nine years).  Jane (the animal communicator) really help open up the communication lines btwn me & my cats, too.  Some things cannot easily be resolved (I.e., Duncan's & Pete's disdain for each other), but at least I have a better understanding of what the deal is.  As far as length of time to administer dosages, here is what Patricia Kaminiski and Richard Katz say in _Flower Essence Repertory_, pp 86-87:

"Although flower essences can be used on a short-term basis for acute situations, their ideal use is for long-term or deep-seated emotional change.  At this level, the most common cycle of essence use is four weeks or one month, a time interval which is strongly correlated to the emotional or astral body.  Seven-day or 14-day cycles may also be of significance in the growth process.  For particularly deep changes, a whole series of monthly cycles need to be considered.  However, in most cases changes will be noticed in one month.  At this interval there is usually the need to re-formulate or re-assess the flower essence combination.  We recommend continuing to use a formula, or at least one or two key essences from the mix, for a period of time even after some change has been noticed.  This allows a possibility for the essences to be "anchored" at deeper levels of consciousness."

In message >, susan <catgrrrl@>writes
<<Sandy Arora wrote: I know of at least 3 cats who developed diabetes after being on Ovaban:( >>

<<Diabetes . . . that's a new one to me.  Megan was on Ovaban on and off for about 5 years and developed a benign mammary tumor in 1992.  That's when I started going holistic with the cats.  Still, last September she had a malignant mammary tumor removed and none of her vets (holistic, allo or surgeon) dispute that the Ovaban is responsible. As I recently said elsewhere, if a human drug caused the side effects of Ovaban, the FDA would have had it off the market by now.>>

I do use Ovarid (our name in the UK for Ovaban) on a limited basis to prevent my girls calling - but I use an extremely low dose (0.125mg
every 3 weeks).  I have not so far (been breeding for 10 years) had a problem with it.  If I used the dosage that vets recommend then I am certain I would have had problems!

<<Has anyone on this list tried the potentized hormones Susan mentioned?  I no longer have the need since Megan's symptoms disappeared when she was treated for vaccinosis.  It would be good to know, though, that something can *safely* have the effect of the Ovaban!>>

I have tried using Folliculinum 200c on my girls to prevent calling as well.  Its effect has been variable in my cats.  It seems to work well
on some and not on others.  I do think that it is quite useful though, and would use it for other problems if it was appropriate.

Naomi

Here's some info on calming an anxious cat from _Heal Your Cat_ by R. Allport, p.. 121:

"An infusion of Camomile or Oat is soothing (cereals such as oats and barley seem to have a calming effect in many species).  Although better known as an ingredient of beer, Hops given as herbal infusions are extremely helpful for a neurotic cat, while Passiflora will pacify and soothe an anxious one.  An infusion of Vervain is another good choice for lack of confidence.  Finally, Skullcap and Valerian (available as combined proprietary tablets) make a classic herbal calming remedy."

You might also try Therapeutic Touch--Following is an excerpt from an interview CJ Puotinen did w/ Carol Robin, a NY chiropractor who performs T-Touch and Energy Balancing for animals and humans (From Encycl. of Nat. Pet Care, p. 228):

"When I work a dog or cat, I begin by placing one hand on the head and one on the base of the spine, right above the tail, over the sacrum.  I touch very lightly with the palms of my hands or, on a small animal, with the ends of my fingers.  Then I imagine energy flowing from the animal's head down the spine and out the end of the tail, as though water were flowing down the body.  I hold that position for one or two minutes, until I feel a sense of balance under my hands and the animal begins to relax."

Julia, I'm going to use a couple of sources here for treating animals w/ FEs: _Flower Essence Repertory_ by Kaminski & Katz and _Twisted Whiskers_  by Pam Johnson.

When my cats are having problems that I think are more emotional spiritual, I like to take Cosmos for myself and kitties--this flower essence enhances interspecies communication--it has really helped me understand my kitties better and thus be more able to help them with disturbances. I use this essence frequently and have noticed I have a more harmonious household although some relationships btwn my cats are strained, and two of my cats have to be kept separated.  (I have 12 cats.)

Here are some possibilities for the kits:

From FER, pp126-27

• Quaking Grass--  helping animals living together in a group or herd to adjust; especially important when a new animal has been introduced.
• Holly--jealous pets, especially when jealousy involves another pet vying for the attention of the caretaker.
• Aspen-- unknown fear or terror in an animal; especially indicated when treating wild or nervous animals.

• Beech- Intolerant, overreacts to small things.  Unable to see the good in others.  Beech is helpful for the cat with inner rigidity, not allowing a new cat, dog or baby into her life.  It will help her become more accepting and less critical of the differences in her new companion.
• Impatiens- Impatient, little tolerance, irritable, restless, jumpy. This remedy can help encourage your cat's tolerance when introducing a second cat. (end quote)

<<aggressive one is an entire female of 1 year, a bit nervy and very wary  of being held or confined in any way, who is probably normally bottom of the heap, and is showing signs of jealousy as well as just plain aggression.  I need something for her and also for the newcomer (a kitten of 16 weeks), who is being surprisingly resilient, but could probably do with some support.>>

Julia, you may want to try Quaking Grass by FES (Flower Essence Society): it's for group integration. FES has a huge selection of other appropriate remedies as well:

• Baby Blue Eyes for defensiveness and mistrust;
• Calendula for argumentativeness;
• Chamomile for irritability;
• Mallow for social insecurity and creating barriers;
• Oregon Grape for the "loving inclusion of others";
• Snapdragon for verbal aggression and hostility;
• Star Thistle to help with generosity and inclusion, for "Basing actions on a fear of lack, inability to give freely and openly";
• Tiger Lily for aggression and hostility, competitiveness, to aid in "Cooperative service with others";
• Yellow Star Tulip for insensitivity to suffering and being unaware of effects of one's actions on others.
• Garlic for the new cat for fear, weakness or being easily influenced, leads to "sense of wholeness which imparts strength and active resistance" (from "FES Quintessentials");
• Mountain Pennyroyal to prevent "absorbing negative thoughts of others, psychic contamination or possession";
• Penstemon for "Great inner fortitude despite outer hardships; perseverence";
• Yarrow for "Extreme vulnerability to others and to the environment; easily depleted, overly absorbent of negative influences, psychic toxicity."

I hope this helps. I tried Quaking Grass for Kashmir and Annie, but didn't give it long enough to work. Have you tried a communicator?

Take care
Kathy and the cats

Linn,  I use Linda Tellington-Jones' simplest technique, the basic circular touch (Clouded Leopard).  I semi-cup my hand so my fingers together form a kind of point (don't hold fingers stiffly; try to keep joints flexible); then I imagine a small clock-face on my kitty and
place my fingers at the 6 o'clock position.  I push the skin lightly all the way around the clock until I get past the 8 o'clock position.  Don't
keep doing circles in the same spot-- just a quick one & one quarter circle per spot.  I just do this quickly (and randomly--moving from
different spots so kitty can't second guess my next move) all over the kitty's back and head, chest, etc., maintaining just a light pressure (the amount of pressure depends on the size of the animal). You should make sure you are breathing evenly and not holding your breath. It's important to not turn this into a petting session (according to the author).  I've been lazy and haven't learned more techniques yet (there are several listed in the book).

Tellington Jones' says she doesn't really know *how* T-Touch works, but offers this thought:  "The circles of the TTouch seem to provide a way for this 'cellular intelligence' common to all life to become communication, for the cells of one being to make a direct connection
with the cells of another.  It's as if TTouch communicates across species barriers like a person-to person call in which the same language
is spoken although the callers are from different countries.

Your circular 'call' wakes up the cells of that other being, activating them to release stored memories of pain 'dis-ease', or the expectation of pain, and allowing them to 'remember' their encoded potential for perfection." p.22 _The Tellington TTouch_ (1992)

My felv+ kitty George especially enjoys this.  He just sprawls out on my lap while I'm doing it :)  Pete's more jumpy than George is
but he'll allow me to give him a short session.

Here are some possibilities from the FES rep:

• impatiens: for nervous, high-strung impulsive animals; to help overly hasty, impulsive or restless children, who can become easily frustrated; frustration with the slowness of others and of life; restlessness due to impatient, quick temperament
• lavendar: overstimulated; tendency to be high strung; frayed nerves
• quaking grass: helping animals living together in a group to adjust; especially important when a new animal has been introduced; ability to harmonize with group, to see self-identity within larger matrix of group identity
• vervain: for hyperactive, overly tense animals; following the middle way, moderation in feelings and actions; counterbalancing overenthusiasm or fanaticism; strong attachment to one's point of view; overzealous need to convert others
• chicory: need to receive excessive attention from others; emotional neediness; creating temper tantrums; demanding excessive attention, usually by negative behavior; clinging tendency; feeling overly needy, sorry for oneself; never feeling  there is enough love or support
• canyon dudleya: overexcitement, tendency to dramatize emotional life or create intense emotional and psychic experiences; stirred up or extreme emotions, tending to hysteria; dissatisfaction with quiet or ordinary pace of life
• chamomile: calming emotional tension or hyperactivity in children; fussiness; colicky babies; insomnia; emotional quietude and calm
• vine: strong-willed children, the bully; imposing one's will on others; tyrannical disregard for the autonomy of others
• mallow: ability to feel warm and caring with others; abitlity to form social bonds
• holly: jealousy or envy of others, not feeling loved

Be well,
Nancy and the furkids

On Monday, May 17, 1999 12:37 PM, S. Arora [SMTP:arora@jasper.uor.edu] wrote:
<< I was wondering if anyone has any ideas for a *super active* kitty boy.  Is there any flower essence yall think would help sort of calm him down a  bit.>>

I found a great website with special "cat friendly" aromatherapy products that are produced with "hydrosols", which are very gentle, and won't hurt or irritate cats. They have a product called the calming spritz. Looks awesome!! Good prices!

Aromaleigh products: http://www.aromaleigh.com

calming spritz: http://www.aomaleigh.com/feline.html

They also have flea stuff, dog stuff, human stuff.

Megan and the Cat Maternity Ward

Megan and other listers,

I've purchased products from this company and the owner is very conscientious about safety and quality of their products.  The products are nicely packaged and educational inserts are included with the purchase (at least they were several months ago.)  I've not tried the cat hydrosols yet, but may as flea season gears up when the weather warms.  The products are quite effective for flea/tick control.

Leah

A.J., 10 year old Maine Coon, also has been doing some compulsive licking so I'm hoping more of you will write in about that...and he's a he.  Not allergies or skin condition.  He has had 3 to 4 seizures a year up until last year...and he had none.  Seizures are not diagnosed as epilepsy and they don't last long.  Usually because he's about to throw up something. Most we prevent by making sure he's well dosed with hair ball remedies...now giving all three of my kitties flax seed oil instead of petramalt...except for Maggie who asks for it and I give her some on occasion.  Anyway...I feel A.J.'s licking got stimulated by my break-up with a fellow whom he really loved...can't be helped...but as we all got over it, he kept right on licking.  Truth is I think I have totally stressed all three of them out with vet visits, homeopath visits, etc., so I'm slowing down on everything for the time.  They had geriatric tests and all three had high blood pressure!  Now, I have a chiropractor who comes here and they are getting weekly adjustments.  BUT...there is A.J. and his licking. Homeopathic treatment went on for about 2 months but I saw no appreciable change...really no change at all.  I gave him the same flower remedy I was taking for myself...Bleeding Heart...a remedy I made...and I think it has begun helping plus the chiropractic.  That was hard on him...I'm sure because of all the spinal trauma he's had with the seizures.  Bill, on the other hand, who is typically very shy, comes to be treated first!  He enjoys his treatments!  What a hoot!

Any other thoughts?

a p.s.  I've used flower remedies for maybe 10 years plus I'm a healer by occupation.  Sometimes the definitions of the remedies...Bach, Alaskan, etc., do work as is...but sometimes the root of the problem for people and animals gets very convoluted.  Now...I don't have the foggiest notion how esoteric or not people are on this list...but dowsing for remedies can be extremely effective.  I've found that remedies just have no effect if it's the wrong one...that they don't do harm...now, that's my experience.  But dowsing has typically yielded some pretty remarkable results that work far more often than not.  We'll see yet about the Bleeding Heart for A.J.  If anyone wants more information on that, just email me and I'll be glad to give you some directions on dowsing.

Robbie

Robbie,  this may be somewhat off the wall, but in Chinese medicine (Susan please correct this information  if I don't have the main idea right), during certain seasons of the year, certain parts of the body are more affected than others.  In some animals, this can manifest itself as excessive licking.  I'm on another list where this has been discussed some - if you have a copy of the Cheryl Schwartz book "Four Paws, Five Directions", it might have some information in it about this.  Apparently, when this can't be tracked down to allergies or a skin condition, this might have some bearing on why they're doing it.

Leah

I checked in the Veterinary Drug Handbook and also in The Pill Book guide to medication for your cat and dog about elavil (amitriptyline
HCL). Possible Side Effects:drowsiness, usually due to overdosing. It may cause vomiting and diarrhea and should be given with food to avoid gastrointestinal upset. In people,heart problems,seizures,hallucinations and other CNS signs,gastrointestional upset,allergic reactions,bone marrow depression,liver disease,hair loss,edema,and lupus like syndromes have been reported. These signs have not been reported in animals,but are all potential side effects.

It goes on to say that most psychotropic drugs used in veterinary medicine are not licensed for use in animals and there are few
controlled studies to establish dose, efficacy, or safety. The long term effects of this drug are not known.

I have done the whole gamut of "anti-spraying" drugs and basically gave up to the fact that with so many (27 cats in the house) that I was going to have problems with spraying till I reduced either the number or the stress in there furry lives. I did not want to take a chance with long term effects because of a problem I caused (I do rescue work). I also tried Feliway (facial pheromone spray). It did help, but at $27 for 60 ml it got expensive. It is to encourage facial marking rather than spraying. You have to spray the areas on a daily basis. If your cat is already showing signs of kidney failure I would be hesitant to keep him on elavil long term.  Is there anyway to reduce the stress in his life?

Linda(catlady)
----------------------------------------------------------------
<31 May 99  From: Vick Re: Elavil for Spraying>

<<I have a neutered male cat who has conflict with another of my cats  and he sprays when he gets mad.  He just about ruined the upstairs.>>

Fiona, that's just what my Mr. Peebody, Sam, does! Isn't it wonderful? <heavy, heavy sarcasm>

<< vet put him on a small doseage of elavil.  When I try to stop giving  it to him he sprays so I guess I'm going to have to keep him on this>>

Have you seen the stuff I wrote about spraying on the Holisticat site? If no, check out http://www.holisticat.com/spray.html I had good results w/ herbal and homeopathic treatments, as well as behavior modification and giving Sam his own space.

<<Does anyone know what the long term effects of this could be?  Boo  also has a chronic infection which led the vet to believe that he has  the beginning of kidney disease.  He's only 6 yrs. old.>>

I had my cat on Buspar to control his spraying. Within 3 months, he suffered massive liver problems (enzymes whose normal ranges were 10-80 were over 4,000) and pancreatic involvement. I got him thru that, but he began spraying several months after he recovered. We tried Elavil, knowing it is metabolized in the liver, but within a week, Sam's appetite dropped off and I panicked and took him off it.

If you're gonna keep Boo on it long term, I'd check liver values monthly. Elavil is metabolized by the liver, so if problems are
building, liver enzymes should show it. I would probably track kidney values too, just to be safe.

Just my humble two cents' worth :) Best of luck!!

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel