Following are selected posts to the Holisticat (TM) Mailing List on the subject of calcium supplementation and sources. There's a lot of information here, and the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utilize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!

Happy hunting :)

<10 Aug 1998 From wordlady Re Superfood & raw beef>

Hi list

Actually, for humans, spinach is not a good source of calcium because it contains oxalates (oxalic acid) which not only make quite a lot of the spinach calcium unavailable, they also bind some of the available calcium in the body. 100 grams of spinach can actually rob the body of 166mg of calcium, leaving a calcium deficit. In addition, in predisposed individuals, oxalates increase the risk of kidney stones.

Beets also leave a deficit of calcium - minus 34mg for each 100 grams of beets.

Better vegetable calcium sources are broccoli, chickpeas, kale, mustard greens, parsley, watercress.

But I don't know if this is the same for cats.
-- Jean, Saski & Amber

[snip unrelated]

Now a word about the calcium issue. Dr. Richard Schulze, the originator of Superfood, says that all minerals used in nutrient manufacture are basically dirt. The iron, calcium, zinc, etc. are just mined ore, pulverized and powdered into fine dust. This doesn't make it easier to assimilate. Some calcium is made from ground up oyster shells. Modern research shows us that minerals of this type are 99% inassimilable. The manufacturers response to this is to add pig digestive enzymes, which supposedly predigests it or chelates it, in their attempts to force our body to accept this toxic material. Plants are a better source for obtaining our vitamins and minerals as they turn inorganic nutrients into organic nutrients for our assimilation.

Catman

I give my guys a lightly beaten whole raw egg (with the shell well smashed and included) once every 10 days or so, with a veggie pulp and a sprinkle of healthy powder and flax seed.  I can only really get them to eat their veggies if I add something yummy to it, and currently an egg fits the bill<G>.

The problem with feeding too many raw egg whites is that there is a substance (avidin?) that binds with biotin in the existing diet and can cause biotin deficiency - HOWEVER a whole egg (with yolk) is balanced and if offered occasionally will not hurt - the addition of the shell provides  the calcium that balances the phosphorus in the egg.

Tracey

How finely do egg shells have to be ground so there isn't a danger to the cat's insides?  I'm following Pitcairn's instructions, I grind them in a mini- chopper/grinder.  They come out the consistency somewhere between regular salt and kosher salt.  Probably closer to the consistency of regular salt but not as fine as talcum powder.  What do you all think, is this ground up enough?

Sandy

Hi Everyone,

Since my discovery of calcium (polyascorbate) in the Ester-C earlier, I've been trying to figure out if it is actually 250mg of Ca per 5 grams of Ester-C powder, or if the calcium (polyabsorbate) is a source of Vit. C.

[Label reads:  Calcium (polyascorbate)..............250 mg]

I phoned the HFS, the nutritionist wasn't there, but the woman I spoke to seemed knowledgeable enough, and said that she was "pretty sure" that the calcium listed was calcium.

So tomorrow, when I whip up a batch of foodies, should I use our Ester-C supplement, which includes calcium (polyabsorbate), to correct the phosphorus?  Thinking back on our last batch of foodies, the amount of the Ester-C I would have added, would have been just fine as far as the quantity of C supplement goes.

Now about the sodium polyabsorbate for cats, and calcium polyabsorbate for d*gs...why would that be?  Yumi, the Natural Animal brand is the *only* brand (that I can find) that has a seperate cat and d*g formula (for Vit. C)  We've determined that calcium absorbate is fine for kittys, sometimes preferred, so why would calcium POLYabsorbate not be okay? Hope this message makes sense, cause my brain is spinning!

Judy and all,

I emailed Dr. Brown with Inter-cal, but have not heard from him yet. In a meanwhile, I did some checking around, and this is what I found out.

Ester C is processed in water - not with chemical solvents and uses a  unique patented process which produces the by-water called  Calcium Threonate (up to 3%), which is biochemically the same as that made by our body when  some of  the Vitamin C we ingest is converted in the liver.

I will let you know as soon as I hear from Dr. Brown about dog and cat and ester-C

Yumi

I just got though talking to L. Phillips Brown, D. V. M of Inter-Cal, patent holder for EsterC.  He said in the beginning (I guess when he used to be with Natural Animals), researchers thought that Sodium Polyascobate was better absorbed by cat. But now many people use human Ester C that is with Calcium, and cats seem to be doing ok. So they are thinking that maybe cat can absorb calcium polyascobate as well.

As for the balancing calcium, calcium content in ester c products are usually less than 10%. And he thinks this is such a minute amount that will not cause unbalance problem.

-- Yumi

At 04:30 PM 9/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
<<Hi Everyone, Since my discovery of calcium (polyabsorbate) in the Ester-C earlier, I've been trying to figure out if it is actually 250mg of Ca per 5 grams of Ester-C powder, or if the calcium (polyabsorbate) is a source of Vit. C.>>

I'm a little confused--are you meaning "polyabsorbate" or "polyascorbate"? I don't have any bottles that have this listed, but I am familiar with the latter word and not the first word, so I wondered.  If it's polyascorbate, then it IS a source of Vitamin C or closely related substances. (Ascorbate..ascorbic acid.)

Puzzled,
Leslie

Hi Everyone,

Noreen, I use Ester-C that has calcium polyascorbate.  I use the calcium in it to correct the phosphorus in the foodies, this way I'm adding the vit.C stuff at the same time.  The small prob I ran into is I was uneasy about adding too much C, so to balance the phosphorus I use part Ester-C and part calcium supplement.  We avoid bonemeal completely.

Sandy,

You are talking about Ester C? I don't know how to discribe this. But the minerals that they use to make ester C is different form from the dietary monerals. Maybe someone can explain better. I think I tried before, and I'm not good with it.

-- Yumi
-------------------
<<Yumi - I'm not 100% sure but I don't think it's Ester C.  This is from the vet's office and not for human's but I would think it would say Ester C on the bottle and it doesn't.  Is calcium ascorbate part of what goes into Ester C? All the information that's given is that it's calcium ascorbate.  1 teaspoon = 4000 mg. of calcium ascorbate.>>

SandyC7606@ wrote:
<<I've started using calcium ascorbate as the Vit. C source for Puff.  Can this  do double duty as the calcium source also?>>

Hi all,

I did some heavy duty research on this, and can safely say the answer is 'yes'.  Sandy your label should tell you exactly how much calcium is derived from the calcium ascorbate.  I'm using Ester-C which has calcium polyascorbate, and per 2000 mg of Ester-C (vit C) we're getting 250 mg of calcium.  If by chance it isn't listed on the label, you can phone the manufacturer and they'll tell you.

Hi All,

I don't post much but I had a response to this issue. My roomate used to work at a fine chemical company (vitamins and colors) ....calcium ascorbate is the non brand name of Ester -C....that is what makes the difference in price from Ester-C and Cal Asc. If you read the bottle of Ester and the bottle of Calcium Asc they usually have the same ingredients depending on the manufacturer. The Calcium Asc I have says 4,000 Cal Asc per heaping teaspoon and 750 mg calcium....so this is definitely a good source for calcium as well.

Just thought I would pass this info along....you can save some money not buying the brand name....ask your supplier or an impartial person (ask where you buy your vit C what the difference between the two are) to verify this but this info did come from a reputable vitamin supplier who had no connection with Ester C.

Tammy

Hi list

Some info about minerals excerpted from Let's Cook for Our Cat by a vet named Dr. Edmund Dorosz. Note the caution re magnesium (thanks again, Emily!).

BTW, Dr. Dorosz has a website at http://www.ourpets.com - I don't think much of the recipes in his book but he does have a wealth of very clear info on nutrition, the metabolic and digestive systems...  I have no connection with him or his site.

"Macro minerals: Calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and chlorine are required in relatively large amounts every day by the cat."

"Micro minerals: Iron, zinc, copper, manganese, iodine, chromium, selenium, molybdenum, cobalt and sulfur are required in lesser amounts by comparison and have important roles in metabolism ... deviate from the natural state with regards to the foods that the cat ate and the environment that she has lived in for thousands of years, we start to see problems."

"An example is calcium ... high in bones and low in meat or flesh and organ meats ... when we eliminate bones and continue to give meat and organs such as liver a calcium imbalance develops ... bones are a natural source of calcium, phosphorus and magnesium."

"Phosphorus is closely related to calcium in both nutrition and metabolism. Like calcium, phosphurus is involved in the formation of bones and teeth - where eighty-five per cent is present - and is necessary for the working of every cell in the cat's body. Magnesium and the B vitamins are also interrelated with phosphorus function.  Food sources are meats, heart, milk, bonemeal, poultry, eggs, fish and legumes. The phosphorus in grains is only fifty per cent available because it is combined with phytic acid which is not digested. If meats and organ foods are fed exclusively, an excess is created over calcium leading to problems. The signs will be those of calcium deficiency.  Deficiencies of phosphorus are less common and appear as those of a calcium imbalance but can also lower the cat's
resistance to infection because phosphorus is involved with the immune system and white blood cell performance.  Calcium, vitamin D and phosphorus work together and any deficiency or excess of one or another will often produce similar signs."

"Magnesium is abundant inside cells and is closely linked with calcium and phosphorus metabolism. Most of the magnesium is found in the teeth and bones of the cat, the rest is found mainly in the cells. In the cells, magnesium is essential for the movement of sodium, potassium and calcium in and out of the cells and for temperature regulation. The vitamins C, E and B complex work better when sufficient is present.  Deficiencies are rare; however, excesses have been linked with an increase of struvite or the urine crystals that may form. Supplementations should be done with *professional guidance* [my emphasis] because of the involvement of calcium
and phosphorus.  Food sources are shrimp, sardines, ground nuts, bonemeal, whole grains and green vegetables."

"200 to 400 mg of calcium per day is the recommended minimum requirement for an adult cat from all her food sources."

"The minimum daily requirement of magnesium for an adult cat is four to eight mg per day."

Hi:  Yup - still here.  I used the cal/phos calculator at Kritter Kitchen site - it tells you how much to add to a pound of meat or a cup of barley - whatever youaree feeding that must be balanced re cal/phos - I use 3 tbsp calcium lactate per pound of raw meat because you are balancing to the phos.  Remember not to use bonemeal as it contains phosphorus and then everything is still out of balance.  Jacqueline

ummm- just reread your post and I should have added that Calcium is used ONLY to balance phosphorus - not given as a supplement - since I use ground meat (turkey, chicken or beef) and it is really out of whack re Ca:Ph, one must correct that balance. I use about 3 tblsp of grains (cooked barley, oatmeal or rice) per pound of meat and about 1/2 cup of purreed veggies.  I mix this all together, put half in the broiler, broil lightly and then it all goes on Kitty Buffet - a dish with the broiled for them as likes it that way and the raw separately for those who don't like it cooked.  I have nine cats. If Ca:Ph is seriously not in balance, will end up with bone problems eventually altho most felines and canines compensatie quite well for Ca:Ph imbalance (Kronfeld, Univ Penn).  Hope this explains it better than that first post.
Jacqueline

hey all --

whew - i am way behind thanks to a killer week (and it's only wed!) and tomorrow i'll be driving my foster d*g to jacksonville to begin his new life!! i don't think words can express how thrilled i will be to NOT have a d*g anymore....

Jean wrote:
<< I find this whole calcium-phosphorus ratio business very murky! If you feed  bonemeal, do you feed just that and no other calcium? And if so, why  would that be extra phosphorous - wouldn't it be a natural balance?  I'm very confused!>>

bone meal has phosphorous in it, whereas something like oyster shell or egg shell is pure calcium. the amounts of bone meal recommended *do* balance the phosphorous in both the bone meal and the meat... but with all the FUS kitties i've heard about on raw diets, there's obviously something we're doing wrong... sam is a prime example - according to most of the raw cat diet camps, i'm doing everything right - but he's still got something going on w/ his pH and he forms crystals... today i purchased plain old calcium carbonate pills that i will hopefully be able to grind up and use instead of bone meal.

in pitcairn's book, some of his recipes have bone meal, eggshell and calcium measurements. for example, in the mackerel loaf, you can use 2 teaspoons of bone meal, 2/3 teaspoon of eggshell powder or 1,200 mgs calcium. so obviously, there's extra Ph in the bone meal, requiring more of it to balance the meat.

<<Ideally shouldn't my cats eat bone-in raw food to clean their teeth and get  the correct amount of calcium?>>

ideally, they should. sam does, skippy is learning, but max and jez say no way. i am beginning to think that if you're having to add calcium, then calcium is what you should be using - not bone meal.

<<so if I grind up the bones in the meat to avoid that problem, then he  doesn't get the teeth cleaning. If I both grind and feed bones, is he  getting too much calcium? A-a-a-r-r-r-g-g-h <frustration> I wish I knew  what I was doing.>>

i wish i knew what i was doing, too.... it's basically trial and error sometimes, and lotsa listening :)

if ya grind up the bones, he's still getting a little abrasion, plus the meat itself is supposed to be good for cleaning. if you're successful with grinding bones in, keep with it. try big, marbled hunks of stew meat or chicken gizzards as cleaners. actually, turkey gizzards are the fave here - i cut 'em into quarters and throw 'em down the hall for the kids to pounce on and kill (the only way jez will eat meat, btw, is if it's thrown!)

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

hey everyone --

i was using (am throwing it out after i type this) solgar's Bone Meal Powder. here's the breakdown:

bone meal.................4977 mg
Calcium...................1650 mg
iron.........................1 mg
*PHOPHOROUS*...............750 mg
Vit B-12....................25 mcg
zinc.........................2 mg
bone marrow.................20 mg
*MAGNESIUM*.................40 mg
copper.....................0.1 mg

i stressed the Ph and Mg for a reason -- magnesium is implicated in FUS and phosphorous is restricted in CRF cats. when you use calcium, it's just calcium. to help out, there's a Ca:Ph calculator at http://www.dataweb.net/~sham/nutrient/index.html .... but i'm still trying to figger out what everything means there myself :)

hi again --

<<Those figures are horrific, even for healthy cats! How much do they recommend giving per day - i.e., what do the mgs work out to, did you do  the calculation? Just curious.>>

jean, those numbers are per "rounded teaspoon" and pat mckay recommends 1 Tablespoon of bone meal per pound of meat. since a 3 pound chicken lasts sam about a week, he's getting a buttload of bone meal and all its scary parts!!

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

hey all --

<< What type of calcium would be good, and does any kind come in powders like bone  meal does?>>

lee, i dunno if it comes in powder or not... i just bought calcium carbonate pills and *hope* my coffee grinder will handle them!

pitcairn sez "Unlike bone meal (Ca alone) provides no additional Phosphorous. this means less total Ca is needed to balance the total ammt of Ph. the result is a lower-ash diet" the 'best' calciums are chelated Ca, Ca gluconate or Ca lactate (best assimilated forms of Ca). he sez to avoid products that also contain Ph or Mg. just remember to check the back to bee sure the ammt of Ca provided is the same as the mgs listed on front, and calculate accordingly.

as a point of reference, in his healthy powder: 1/4 cup bone meal = 9,000 mgs Ca = 5 teaspoons eggshell powder

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Hi all

Sandy wrote:
<<We know what's in bonemeal.  So, what's in real bones?  Are they the same?  If so, then why is bonemeal bad other than the fact that it is cooked whereas cats would normally eat 'em raw?>>

<<If indeed real bones have the same Cal, Phos, Mag and trace minerals then wouldn't u want that to be replicated by the bonemeal?  Wouldn't switching to just Calcium cause an imbalance?  Reason I'm asking is that isn't Phos acidifying?  So by cutting back on Phos, wouldn't it exacerbate FUS and other probs caused by too lo urine acidity.>>

I write:
I agree you can't just feed calcium. My own feeling is that grinding raw bones is the best and as long as the ratio of bones to meat is approx the same as that of the long-suffering mouse, it should be ideal. (But if we grind up all the turkey bones in a turkey, e.g., is that the same balance? I dunno - turkey bones are pretty large.)

But what concerned me was that the Solgar bone meal delivers 40mg Mag per rounded teaspoon. 3 teaspoons in a tablespoon, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt, say 2 rounded teaspoons=a tablespoon. Use 1 tablespoon bone meal per lb of meat, that's 80mg Mag per lb.  Amber gets about 1/2 cup of raw meat a day, that's approx 1/4 lb, that's 20mg Mag a day. I think the RDA is 4 to 8mg, isn't it? So that's a lot of magnesium.

So if we're buying bone meal, we need to check the ingredients - that's How I've figured it, anyway. :-) The Phos figures also seemed high but I don't know enough about that to comment.

Ha! Found it on a bottle - 648mg of calcium lactate delivers 84mg of elemental calcium. Whew, no wonder I switched to something else... But that's for humans. Anyone know if the same thing holds true for cats?

hey everyone --

my apologies for starting a thread then dropping out of existence... it's been a rough week, and a weekend of playing catch-up on stuff that isn't nearly as fun (but does pay the bills...) anyhow, on the bone meal -vs- calcium bit.

S. Arora wrote:

<<We know what's in bonemeal.  So, what's in real bones?  Are they the  same?  If so, then why is bonemeal bad other than the fact that it is  cooked whereas cats would normally eat 'em raw?>>

yumi answered that bone meal is more or less the same thing as bones. and you're right, for most cats, i'd say use bone meal (or real bones). but my line of thought is one of diet modification for an animal w/ a chronic condition, like sam seems to have... there is obviously something going on in a cat who has been on a raw diet for a year who is still experiencing struvite crystals...

struvite crystals are (chemically) magnesium ammonium phosphate hexahydrate -- which to me translates to too much Mg and Ph. crystals are urinary precipitates, which leads me to believe that sam is getting too much Mg and Ph in his food. skippy has been eating ground meat with bone meal for 4 months without any problems, so perhaps this demonstrates that some cats (probably most of 'em) do okay with bone or bone meal and some cats don't

<< if indeed real bones have the same Cal, Phos, Mag and trace minerals then wouldn't u want that to be replicated by the bonemeal?  Wouldn't  switching to just Calcium cause an imbalance?  Reason I'm asking is that  isn't Phos acidifying?  So by cutting back on Phos, wouldn't it  exacerbate FUS and other probs caused by too lo urine acidity.>>

i guess the test here would be to switch sam to calcium instead of bone meal and see if he gets Ca oxalate crystals :)

seriously, in the book i just got (thanks mom :)) "The Holistic Veterinary Handbook", one of the steps in the 'holistic rationale' for
treating FUS is to increase disease resistance, *reduce the ash content of the diet* (my emphasis), increase water intake, acidify the urine, encourage frequent urination, and give a urinary antiseptic. the author (Dr. Wm Winter) believes that the root of FUS is "processed, cooked pet food".

so i *think* that by reducing the ammt of Mg and Ph in sam's diet, i am reducing ash (been a long time since i've seen all this stated explicitly). there's also a woman on another list who says to not feed FUS cats bones. i've replied to that post in hopes of getting more concrete info from her, and hopefully, figgering this all out.

from what i can tell, i'm balancing the Ph in meat with the Ca in the CaCO3 supplement. in the "quick feline meatfest" recipe, pitcairn calls for 1 1/2 teaspoons bone meal OR 600mg Ca OR 1/3 teaspoon of eggshell for 1 cup of meat chunks. that ammt of bone meal actually contains 2475 mgs of Ca - and 60 mgs of Mg + 1125 mgs of Ph... that's a LOT of minerals floating around in the system....

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Vick wrote:

<< i 'spoke' with a holistic vet i'm friendly with, and here's the gist of  what she said:  "It sounds like a reasonable idea to try the calcium carbonate in lieu  of bone meal....">>

Just wondering, does the vet have a reason for specifying calcium carbonate, or did she just mean calcium supplement?  I've heard that the more bio-available ones like calcium citrate are less likely to deposit in the kidneys and are easier for one's system to deal with with less stuff left over.  BTW, there was a discussion earlier of how one needs to look at the amount of "elemental" calcium supplied in a supplement versus just the amount of calcium carbonate or whatever.  I wanted to add one more wrench in that works...you get more usable calcium from a bio-available type like citrate (especially), gluconate or lactate, so a smaller amount of elemental calcium is actually equivalent to a bigger amount of elemental calcium from carbonate!  Sorry I don't know a conversion factor; that would be interesting.  Anyway, I would think it might be better to use something other than carbonate in a kidney-kitty, but I'd love to hear an expert's opinions.

Laurie (Wildflower)

hey all --

i wrote:
<< "It sounds like a reasonable idea to try the calcium carbonate in  lieu of bone meal...">>

laurie wrote:
<<Just wondering, does the vet have a reason for specifying calcium  carbonate, or did she just mean calcium supplement?>>

laurie, i asked her specifically about CaCO3, so that was the reason she specified it.

<<Anyway, I would think it might be better to use something other than carbonate in a kidney-kitty, but I'd love to hear an expert's opinions.>>

i have notes on CRF treatment (taken from a vet text) that say that CaCO3 is a good choice for a phosphorous binder because there's no aluminum, but that calcium acetate is most effective as a phos. binder. they gave the brand names of Phos-Lo and Phos-Ex. dunno anything about these brands, but it may be something to look into w/ your vet?

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

<<Vick - I'm adding calcium lactate to Puff's meals to balance the phosphorus.  It this the same thing as using it as a phosphorus binder?
> >

Sandy wrote:

Judy checked w/ her vet about this cuz I too wanted to be ready for when Boo's Phos levels got too hi (they stayed normal).  Judy's vet told her this was not the best way to go.

This does seem bass ackawards actually b/c what happens is that the Phos can't be excreted by the kidneys so it leaches calcium from the bones. A lot of CRF cats will thus have hi Phos and lo Cal levels show up on their blood tests.  And some people add Cal to their diet to counteract the hi Phos.  But U can only take this logic so far...does this make sense?

Dunno if I'd go w/ additional calcium supplementation just to balance the Phos.  In Vick's cat's case, she feels bonemeal is too hi in Mag and Phos so she is switching to Cal Carb instead to see if it helps w/ the FLUTD.

A phos binder is quite different.  What happens there is u give an aluminum-based gel *with* food so that the Phos in the food binds w/ the gel and gets excreted via the stool.  This way the kidneys do not have to process the Phos (which they are already having trouble doing) and it doesn't enter the bloodstream and cause the calcium leaching problem.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats
--------
Vick wrote:

Sandy (Puff's ma) the Ca lactate you're adding wouldn't be a 'phosphorous binder' in the sense of removing excess calcium... I really don't know the mechanism by which Ph binders work -- Dr Wynn, can you clarify this for us? Do you use Ca products in practice as a Ca binder for CRF kitties?

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
------------

Phosphate binders are aluminum based products like Basalgel and Amphogel.

Susan G. Wynn, DVM CVA

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Judy wrote:
<< What would be a natural alternative to Basalgel or Amphogel? >>

I don't know of any offhand, but I haven't studied this intensely.  I would not consider Basalgel or Amphogel to be toxic or problematic, so I haven't looked for alternatives.

Susan G. Wynn, DVM CVA

Hi all
I've been doing some comparison of calcium requirements and equivalents, and it don't add up (what else is new?) :) So please tell me if I'm way off base here!

Dr. Dorosz says cats need from 400-800mg calcium per day.

Someone (sorry, can't remember who) on the list posted that you need to add 3T (9 teaspoons) of calcium lactate to every 450g (or 1 lb) of meat in order to balance out the phosphorus.

Breaking that down, 1/4 cup of meat equals 50 grams, or 1/9 of a pound. For calc lactate requirements, that conveniently works out to 9 teaspoons divided by 9, or 1 tsp per 1/4 cup of meat.

So if I feed 1/2 cup of meat a day, I also need to feed 2 tsps of calcium lactate per day to balance the phos. I don't know how much calcium that delivers, however.

Apparently Dr. Pitcairn says 1/4 c bone meal = 9000mg calcium = 5 tsp eggshell powder. That means 1 tsp eggshell powder (9000 divided by 5) = 1800mg calcium, around 2 to 4 days' worth.

So if feed 1/2 cup of meat a day, but use eggshell powder, I need to feed from 1/4 to 1/2 tsp per day - as against the 2 tsps of calcium lactate.

Big difference!

BTW, Dr. Levy's diet doesn't differentiate among calciums. His vitamineral powder, which I've been mixing up, calls for 2 to 3T calcium or eggshell powder or bone meal per mix, which in quantity works out to 1/2 tsp to 3/4 tsp per day. According to the above comparison, that's going to deliver very different amounts of calcium, depending on which source you use.

I haven't attempted to figure out Anitra's mix, but she doesn't differentiate among bone meal, calcium lactate or calcium gluconate either.

I've been using predominantly eggshell powder. Maybe that's why my guys tend to be constipated. I think I need to buy a grinder and let Nature do the balancing!

--Jean, Saski Basket & Amber Sweet T'ing

In a message dated 2/23/99 1:07:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, arora@jasper.uor.edu writes:
<<   Anyone know what form of Calcium is contained in eggshell powder?  Cuz  that would make a difference.  If it is less bioavailable, then we'd need  to add more.  I know in humans they say that one should take 1 part Mag  for every 2 parts of Cal.  What about kitties I wonder?   >>

Personally, I wouldn't use egg shells for calcium.  I don't feel that is an absorbable form of calcium, either for cats or humans.  That's like eating the rust off your car for iron!  The body just can't break it down and use it.  I give my cats herbal calcium, which is the plants that are high in calcium.

Elaine

* * * * *
< Tue, 23 Feb 1999 From: Judy <critterz@>

Hi Kidz,
The eggshell "is largely composed of calcium carbonate (about 94%) with small amounts of magnesium carbonate, calcium phosphate and other organic matter including protein."  http://www.aeb.org/

Jean what I do is figure out how much calcium and phosphorus is in the batch of foodies, using the USDA site
http://www.rahul.net/cgi-bin/fatfree/usda/usda.cgi  Then I correct it to 1:1.01 or 1:1.02 ratio.  The Ester-C we use supplies calcium so I use that along with Krebs Cycle Calcium, to achieve the desired ratio.

[From Peggy: the ca:ph queen.  She said to give her regards to everybody and that Hester and Elleander are fine, BTW.  She said the ratio should be 1:1 to 2:1]

[snip]

Hi there --

<< This time I decided to buy some calcium, but it has boron mixed with  it.  Does anyone know if this is a problem?  I can always take it  back. >>

Here's what "The Encyclopedia of Nutrition and Good Health" hasta say about Boron:

"An essential mineral nutrient found in trace ammts in most tissues. Altho it's precise role is unclear, boron may function in bone formation in both women and men and may also help prevent Ca and Mg losses in post menopausal women.... improves copper metabolism... an estimated safe (no RDA established yet) and adequate daily intake is 1 to 3 mg for adults... Excessive use of boron supplements can cause a dangerous overdose of Boron."

So if the cats are gonna get more than 1/8 - 3/8 mg of boron a day (going by Elaine's recommendation that cat dose is 1/8 human dose for supplements) from the calcium, i probably wouldn't use it myself.

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

<<The only thing that concerned me was that Frazier sez her powder is balanced as is, and  can be added to even commercial food, so by eliminating bonemeal you're messing up the  balance... >>

Hi kidz,

I don't think Frazier's mix is balanced within itself.  She's heavy on the calcium, cuz she uses that mix to add to her foodies.  So that's weird, IMO, that she would suggest to add it to commercial food, which supposedly is cal:phos correct;  but she also mentions in her aging cat section to supply a much larger quantity of vitamins and minerals cuz the cat won't assimilate them anyway.  I don't buy that, cuz too much is as bad as too little.  Calcium for example.

Pitcairn's mix seems to be balanced within itself.  He specifies how much calcium to add to specific recipes.  And being paranoid as I am, I've double checked his ratios, in a couple of his recipes, and he's right!

<< Pitcairn's mix seems to be balanced within itself.  He specifies how much calcium to add to specific recipes.  And being paranoid as I am, I've double checked his ratios, in a couple of his recipes, and he's right!>>

FWIW, our vet says you can replace the 4 Tbsp. Healthy Powder and the 2 Tbsp. bone meal called for in Pitcairn's recipes with 16 Tbsp. Frazier's Vita-Mineral Mix.  There is a note following the recipes, however,  about using the different grains:  the note says if you use oats, you can substitute 4000 mg calcium for the bone meal, but if you use millet or bulgar, to use only bone meal (it must have something to do with the phosphorus in the oats?).  The calcium in the Vita-Mineral Mix is "calcium lactate", so if I am interpreting this correctly it means you should only use oats with the Vita-Mineral mix as far as grains are concerned.  That is not specified in Pitcairn's book, as far as I can tell.

Diane