Following are selected posts to the Holisticat (TM) Mailing List on the subject of kidney problems and renal failure. To say there's a lot of information here is an understatement. These are pretty long, and there are several pages! As always, the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utilize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!
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Happy hunting :)
Hi everyone,
Leah, you mention that Giddy's BUN is 50, but what is the normal range? I thought I could compare it to Sammy's stuff, but you mentioned your high end of normal is 1.1, where ours is 1.0-2.2, so they're not the same. BUN is how kitty is feeling, creatinine is how the disease is progressing. Both are waste products from protein.
Why do crf kittys get raised calcium levels? Sammy did, didn't
Booey too? When the disease progresses, excess phosphorus shows up
in blood tests. That will be Sammys next stage, maybe. Then
a phosphate binder will be needed, but Sandy and I figured out that calcium
blocks phosphorus. So it is our unprofessional opinion that excess
calcium for a crf kitty is not a bad thing. I phoned my vet about
this, and she said that although our theory was correct, it's going about
the matter
unnaturally. I had Sammy's calcium:phosphorus at 10:1.
We know that calcium in the food, will not effect calcium in the blood,
unless there is way too much in the food.
I think Fraziers kidney diet is much better than Pitcairns. She recommends barley for the grain, and time and time again I run into stuff for cats (and people) that barley water, and barley are good for the kidneys. I use other grains or mashed potatoes sometimes, but mainly use barley. I always add eggs to every batch, per my vet. Some whole eggs, plus some additional whites. The main reason I don't care for Pitcairns recipes is that he uses ground meats (or even just heart) I prefer the whole bird, white and dark meat, and the gizzards and stuff. He also says to use enriched white rice, and to add iodized salt--I don't use either. Then after you get this pound or whatever amount of food together, he says to add a teaspoon of veggie. What is a teaspoon gonna do? Pitcairn says his recipe works out to be 24% protein. On paper, Fraziers is 29%, but per my cat food analysis it was slightly lower than that, but I can't find it right now to give you the exact #.
I read that the kidneys are stimulated by Berberis Vulgeris and Solidago Virga (drainage). And thea the buds of Fagus Silvatica increase renal secretions (gemmotherapy). What do yall know about this?
What's UA?
Hi Sandy & list
My name is Rita Blose. I'm new to the list as of the end of last week. Thank you Sandy for responding to my e-mail. The info on the list is interesting so far. Also by way of introduction: I am a registered nurse getting ready to go back to school for some law training. <G> I also breed & SHOW Maine Coon Cats & Norwegian Forest Cats for the last 15 years.
PKD=Polycystic Kidney Disease is an autosomal dominant genetic deficit that has surfaced it's ugly face in the persians & exoctics. (It is the occurrence of cysts developing in the kidneys as young as 6 months but as late as 7+ yrs. The cats have a sudden loss of appetite & weight loss similar to what I am reading on the CRF list --chronic renal failure. ) But American Shorthairs were one of the breeds used to develop the exoctics. I don't think it has any profound effect for the ASH. However, thru some recent articles I have learned that it may have some effect for the Norwegian Forest Cat as persians may have been used in Norway to re-establish this age old breed. In the last several years I have lost 2 females (mother & daughter) from 'kidney failure'. Tissue slides were reviewed at the University of Pennsylvania but the only diagnosis they could give me was 'kidney failure' --type unknown.
So I'm out on the lists trying to learn. And waiting for a PKD clinic in Raleigh NC to get a date set & to take my boy to get him scan. He's almost 2--so if there are cysts in his kidneys, he gets neutered. And will have to live here as a life long resident. He's a fun cat so it won't be hard just interesting. He's the only cat I have who gives me kisses on my lips. I get wisker kisses from others.
Some individuals (who bred persians, etc) are concerned & trying to do the right thing by getting the cats scan & neutering the carriers. The CFA who is one of the registering organizations is doing the right thing in promoting the information. That's the first responsible stand that I have seen from this organization or any USA registering organization. The NRR registry in Norway is taking a harder stand--persians & exocitcs must have a negative scan to be registered & bred.
Hope, this wasn't too much for the list.....
Rita Blose
<<I only recently learned about something called Polycystic Kidney
Disease (PKD) when a lot of Persian (and exotic) breeders on the Persian
list found out that some lines of Exotics in particular carry this gene.
It can be passed on to the offspring:( As a mom to 1 Persian and
2 Exotics, I naturally am worried about this. One of my exotics,
Pigpen, has mostly ASH ancestory, which explains why she doesn't look very
exotic. My other exotic, Bunny, has BSH and Burmese ancestory w/
lots of Persian so she
has that teddy bear look exotics are famous for.>>
Hi!
I am a CFA Persian and Himalayan breeder located in Hutchinson, Kansas.
PKD is a genetic disease (renal failure) that is taking the lives of cats all over the world. It's not a new disease, but veternarians and breeders are finding that our cats are dying too young (deaths can/are occurring from approximately age 2 and up; recently a 4 month old kitten died of PKD), especially since a cat's lifespan is 15-20 years or more.
This disease is NOT confined to Persians and Himalayans, altho the initial studies were conducted using Persians. It is being found in almost all the breeds, and it's being found world-wide, from the smallest catteries to the biggest.
It is NOT confined to purebreed cats, altho there are not many statistics
at this time regarding PKD in mixed breed cats. Why?
Because most pet cat owners, don't take their cats in for testing,
or are not aware that their cats, too, can be susceptible to PKD.
We breeders have taken it upon ourselves to get clinics set up across the nation, with state of the art equipment, and highly qualified radiologists.
PKD can be detected 98% surety at age 10 mos and up through ultrasound scans, earlier if the cat's kidneys are at an advanced stage of PKD. If a cat is PKD positive, that cat WILL pass the disease onto its offspring. If a PKD+ cat is bred to a PKD negative cat, 50% of all offspring will inherit PKD. If 2 PKD negative cats are bred, NONE of the offspring will inherit the gene for PKD.
Normal ultrasound scans at a vet's office, can range from $60 to several hundred dollars. The minimum requirements for the machine are 7.5 mHz transducer at 256 grey scale, in order to image small cysts.
There are several websites available with in-depth information on PKD:
1) Statistics to date on scan results: http://www.indyweb.net/~lucky/Stats.html
2) CFA article: http://www.cfainc.org/articles/health-pkd.html
3) A Personal Experience with PKD: http://www.netcat.org/pkd.html
If you're interested in having your cats scanned at the clinic we'll be conducting in Hutchinson/Wichita, please contact me.
Judy J
Here is the info as promised - I give you Amphogel as posted on wellpet by Dr. Moore. I think this info is from the PDR.
"Aluminum Hydroxide aka Amphojel (by Wyeth), Alagel (by Century) and
AlternaGEL (by Stuart), Alu-cap, Alu-tab, Basaljel, Dialume, Nephrox, and
Phosphaljel is in the aluminum-based antacid family and suggested use is
for limited time only. It is used to treat ulcers and stomach upset caused
by stomach acid, and to prevent a certain type of kidney stones. Older
adults
with metabolic bone dis-eases should not take aluminum antacids (nor
should anyone else in my opinion as it is stored in the blood and nerves
and may be linked to Alzheimer's). The aluminum in this drug can cause
constipation and then another drug with a combo of aluminum and magnesium
would be considered. Before using this drug you should tell the doctor
if you have
allergies to drugs, severe abdominal pain, blood in the stool, constipation,
prolonged diarrhea, hemorrhoids, intestinal blockage, kidney dis-ease or
metabolic bone dis-ease. The doctor must also know if you are taking aspirin,
herbs, vitamins, and other otc products.
When this drug is used contact your dr. immediately if there is black,
tarry stools or vomit material that looks like coffee grounds -
these are signs of bleeding ulcer. This drug must be taken with lots
of water and other drugs must not be taken by mouth for at least 1-2 hours
after taking Amphojel. Do not expose the drug to heat, moisture, or strong
light. Do not store in the bathroom and do not let the liquid form freeze.
Interactions with other drugs include but is not limited to: Achromycin, Allopurinol, appetite suppressants, aspirin, cholecalciferol, cipro, ciprofloxacin, delta-d, digoxin, ecotrin, iron supplements, kayexalate, lanoxin, panmycin, sodium polystyrene sulfonate (combining these may cause kidney failure and alkalosis), tetracycline, and vitamin D3.
The effects of which can be: severe constipation; bone pain and swelling at the wrist; loss of appetite, weight loss; muscle weakness; nausea, vomiting; specked or whitish stools and stomach cramps. While taking this drug periodic tests must be performed to determine blood calcium, phosphate, and potassium levels.
This family of drugs interfere with the absorption of most drugs into the body by interfering with the disintergration of tablets in the stomach and then preventing them from being absorbed; and by changing the acid balance in the kidneys, thus affecting how drugs are released from the body. In a few cases antacids can actually increase a drug's effect.
Please be careful.
Rev. Debra L. Moore, D.N.
Doctor of Naturology
Kathy, I posted to you privately a few suggestions for your current dilemna :)
I got the instructions and info. on how to proceed with Giddy today:
Daily:
Diet: I believe we decided he should get one part meat/protein, 1 part veggies and 1.5 parts grain. His feeling is that grains get a bad rap and that they're a good source of soluble fiber and energy but shouldn't, of course, be fed as the principal portion of the ration. Raw eggs too should be added to the ration (need to re-check with him to see how often). I've had trouble with him eating since I've re-added the grains in, so I'll cut back for awhile to get him back on track.
The sheet he sent for me to keep track of changes is the most detailed I have seen yet - there are nine diff. categories I should roughly rate on a daily basis. Mind you, this is based on some of the symptoms Giddy has exhibited over periods of his lifetime, so if you were working with him you might have less.
So - there you have it, he's starting this regimen today, so we'll see! Wish us luck!
Leah
lknipp@
Hi everyone!
<<Imagine my surprise (very pleasant one, of course) to find Judy
from IL on the other end of the line when I picked up
the phone this morning! >>
That was fun, huh Sandy! What, were we on the phone for 4 hours? ;) Kidding, it was probably more like 3 1/2 ;)
<< Judy, could u post the URL for that site you mentioned that has the info on low protein harming cats in kidney failure?>>
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~jmcnair/netvet.html Is the article that
prompted my immediate vet call, and then the call to you. The 'treatment'
section got me all shook-up.
This article is pro-reducing protein: http://www.petchannel.com/cats/library/health/general/eating1.asp
There are a bunch of links from Dr. Kathy's (from the crf list) site:
http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/dms/james/KMJkid.html
<<I agree w/ Peggy - balance is the key i.e. between Cal-Phos, and Na-K, etc. >>
I do also, 100%! But we know that 'sick kidneys' can't process phosphorus. I guess I'm a believer of a ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
<<Adelle Davis (a nutritionist) in her book "Let's Get Well" also says lo protein diets for humans in kidney failure is harmful. Who can say what that means for cats?>>
People need less protein than everyone really thinks. Plus we can get our protein from beans (Yeah garbanzo's--yum hummus) or tofu or cottage cheese etc. What I've read about people kidney disease is that they should limit their animal protein intake. Can't really use human stuff for kitty stuff, when it comes to crf, cause it's too different. Does Adele Davis say to drop below the MDR? That would be dumb. From experience I know that for myself, I can go without enough protein for 3 days max.
<<Instinctively, I feel quality is the key. Older cats don't eat special lo-protein mousies, right? <g> Like we talked about on the phone, maybe they hunt less and eat less but as a %, the protein in their diet can't be that diff as they age.>>
Pretend an older cat eats 1 mouse a day. Now some youngen' might eat 3 mice a day, he's getting ALOT more protein than the older guy.
What is really confusing me, and I guess I'm gonna have to call the vet *again* is WHY was the protein lowered in the first place? For the studies I mean. Someone just said hey..let's cut out meat from a carnivores diet. There must be some reason behind these studies, and why haven't raised protein studies been started until recently (or are they?) and why do they think raised (maintance) protein is best for crf? Keeping the protein% at a maintence level is like doing NOTHING! It has to be phosphorus.
In my panic call to the vet today, she told me that she guarantees me that any cat with kidney disease will have improved BUN and Creatinine #'s with a lowered protein food. She said that if I wished to do an experiment, raise the protein and see what happens. I did, it's been a few months, and now suddenly, Sammy's #'s have increased. They were the same for 5 blood tests, but now *I've* made his disease progess :(
I asked my vet how updated she was on the disease (quantity vs. quality), and she replied that she is required to take courses updating her on stuff. That it is required for her to take a 20 hour course per year. HUH, that's it? I thought she would get a FAX briefing her weekly, if not daily. But I suppose science is too busy figuring out how to clone a lamb, rather than immediate issues. Damn them.
I've pretty much have formed the opinion of less protein. And hopefully the others are reading this too, cause we need opinions, thoughts and facts!
Gonna search the web for free pre-paid phone cards, incase of another panic! ;)
Hi Everyone!
Hey Sandy and Susan - I called Dr Jansen's radio show and told him about
Boo and he said that Heart and kidney disease in cats is usually caused
by a trace mineral imbalance. He suggested giving Boo and also Luigi
5-10 drops of Trace Minerals per day. He also said give them CoQ10 100mgs
(to250 I think?) between meals and he said Boo's polyp could be caused
by parasites and recommended homeopathic Vermix (by a particular
company I didn't catch the name of). It is a combination remedy that works
wonders for animals and you don't have to worry about provings with this
like you do using the wrong
single remedies.
I also asked about the ginseng and he and his staff all said in chorus that ginseng would not come to mind as being a single remedy that would particularly help any of those conditions and could make things worse. Don't use the Chapparal on Boo tho. they said it might be a little strong for Boo with all his problems.
I tried to get on the show a few weeks ago but called to late and didn't get to ask my questions. Sorry I didn't call much sooner..but *you* guys can call his office. I asked and they do work with animals. Dr Jansen said, "We Love Animals". The phone number for the Tree of Life Center is 508-336-4242. Ask for Jane Jansen, Peter Morrel and Dr. Wim Jansen.
By the way, four days from today will be the one year aniversary of
when Dr. Jansen diagnosed and cured my Lymes disease - very seemingly easily
and effortlessley - with an herbal formulation of wild black carrot extract
and High doses of
Vit. C. My symptoms were gone almost immediately and I just took
the stuff for 3 weeks or so and was fine.
Happy 4th everyone...
Emily
<< http://mailer.fsu.edu/~jmcnair/netvet.html Is the article that prompted my immediate vet call, and then the call to you. The 'treatment' section got me all shook-up.>>
Hmm..just re-read this section on that website you found, Judy:"Diet
is frequently discussed as a possible treatment and as a possible causes
in renal failure in dogs and cats. It is true that protein in the diet
is converted to BUN by the liver. In that sense minimizing protein may
minimize BUN. Unfortunately the degree to which this is effective is probably
nonsignificant. In normal dogs restricted protein does decrease the BUN
from normal to low normal. In renal failure the BUN may decrease
from 100 to 80,
but it is still too high. In my opinion, if the BUN is high enough
to require therapy, it needs more than dietary modification.
Do high protein diets causes renal failure? No. In dogs they have removed 7/8 of the renal mass and then placed them on diets of various protein level and quality. Dietary protein had no effect on the development of renal failure. In cats similar studies suggest that dietary protein level is not associated with renal failure. "
The above pretty much sums up my feelings on this issue. Interesting to have an allo vet come up w/ the same thing. Wasn't that article in Dog Fancy quoting an Iams vet saying pretty much the same thing? OTOH, in your case, Sammy's BUN and Creat rose for the 1st time in a yr since u upped the protein so if it's working for you to lower protein, stick w/ it. What did u decrease in order to up the meat %? Maybe that raised the BUN and creat, and not the meat? A cat in the wild would eat fewer mice rather than seek out skinny ones that eat more grain or something <g>
<< do also, 100%! But we know that 'sick kidneys' can't process phosphorus. I guess I'm a believer of a ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.>>
Ok I know we can't extrapolate too much from people but in a lot of ways, our kidneys and other internal organs don't work all that differently from cats'. According to Davis "if a diet is low in phosphorous but high in calcium, which usually occurs only in a laboratory, such large amounts of both calcium and phosphorous are lost that stones are formed; yet this diet has actually been recommended for persons with kidney stones"
<<for kitty stuff, when it comes to crf, cause it's too different. Does Adele Davis say to drop below the MDR?>>
No, she says in the case of humans, restricting protein can cause BUN to increase b/c more body protein is broken down to make up for the lowered protein intake. Interesting enough, she talks a lot about animals in her book, but what is interesting to me is that she recommends that kidney disease patients eat *more* protein, not less "to replace all albumin lost in the urine and feces, and to rebuild tissues"
This might also explain the muscle wasting that we see in CRF cats. I wonder how much of that is due to lower protein intake. I find that when I feed Boo the regular Pitcairn diet, he gets more muscular and bulky. With icky protein like in the dry food he eats, he is really skinny:(
<< Pretend an older cat eats 1 mouse a day. Now some youngen' might eat 3 mice a day, he's getting ALOT more protein than the older guy.>>
I think in the previous issue of Cat Fancy, there was an article about "finicky cats" or something like that. I forget the exact # they metioned, but I think I'm sure I've read this elsehwere too - that the avg outside cat typically hunts and eats 10 to 15 mousies a day spread out over several meals during the day.
<< What is really confusing me, and I guess I'm gonna have to call the vet *again* is WHY was the protein lowered in the first place? For the studies I mean. Someone just said hey..let's cut out meat from a carnivores diet. There must be some reason behind these studies, and why haven't raised protein studies been started until recently (or are they?) and why do they think raised (maintance) protein is best for crf? Keeping the protein% at a maintence level is like doing NOTHING! It has to be phosphorus.>>
We have to keep in mind who is doing these studies - allo vets who don't think of a cat as a whole. Since the kidneys aren't functioning at 100%, their only thought is to cut down on the kidneys' work..kinda scary but I read this statistic in Well Being Journal - only 2% of chemotherapy for humans can be considered "successful" b/c in their zeal to kill the bad stuff, they also kill the good cells! Similarly, vets lower protein for an obligate carnivore and are surprised when the cat's BUN rises?
<<In my panic call to the vet today, she told me that she guarantees me that any cat with kidney disease will have improved BUN and Creatinine #'s with a lowered protein food.>>
Guarantee? Who does she think she is - Bastet herself?! <bg>
<< I asked my vet how updated she was on the disease (quantity vs. quality), and she replied that she is required to take courses updating her on stuff. That it is required for her to take a 20 hour course per year. HUH, that's it? I thought she would get a FAX briefing her weekly, if not daily. But I suppose science is too busy figuring out how to clone a lamb, rather than immediate issues. Damn them.>>
Yikes! They call 20 hrs a yr continuing ed? That certainly explains a lot, huh? One thing I like about Bunny's vet is that since she specializes in cats, she can keep track on new thinking on cat issues. I noticed she has a thick folder of articles etc. that she brings out when I ask her a question. Course she still doesn't know much <sigh>
<<I've pretty much have formed the opinion of less protein. And hopefully the others are reading this too, cause we need opinions, thoughts and facts!>>
I'd like to know too how others feel since so many of us have cats w/ CRF. Course I can't do anything w/ Booey since I am happy if he eats, period. This is a moot point for me, for the most part:(
--
Sandy, owned and operated by the L.A. rascals:
Hi Barb,
I have been giving my cat, Boo Boo, dandelion leaf for 14 months to help flush out his kidneys. I add parsley about every 3rd time round w/ his herb concoction. Reason is that in the dim recesses of my mind, I seem to remember reading and/or being told by a herbalist I consulted w/ that too much parsley over time will leach potassium from the body (unlike dandelion which is naturally hi in k) so parsley should not be used daily.
So, perhaps u could give your CRF kitty only 1 pill every other day or every 3 days or something like that. Are u referring to that 'Pet Assure" type stuff? I have a friend who uses it for her dogs and says they no longer have "doggie breath".
As for the sunflower oil, the food experts will chime in hopefully, but I think it is hi in Omega 6 or is it GLA?. I read an article in Prevention mag which said we (cats too) get too much O-6 oils in the diet already so u might want to also give some flax seed oil (can use capsules) and/or fish oils, both of which have Omega 3. Course fish oils also have DHA and EPA, which are not contained in flax seed oil or GLA.
Sandy
In a message dated 7/2/98 12:15:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time lknipp@ writes:
<< had a recipe that used hydrangea - I believed it helped dissolve urinary stones or gravel. Licorice, according to David Hoffman in the Holistic Herbal, is often used for viral infections. >>
Hydrangea "shrinks" stones so they can pass them. Licorice stimulates the adrenal glands to produce a natural cortisone.
Elaine
In a message dated 7/6/98 9:31:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bturk@ writes:
<< I have a crf cat whom I'm trying to supplement with herbs & vitamins. I bought some Natural Blend breath relief for her because it contains 3 mg. parsley and 146 mg sunflower seed oil. No other fillers. Does anyone have an opinion if this is ok? I heard that parsley was helpful in chronic renal failure. >>
Parsley is a diuretic and is often used in kidney/bladder combinations.
Elaine
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