<7/20/98 From Sandy A. Re: eggshells revisited>
<<Gosh, do you think they have it? Since humans don't eat eggshells I don't know if they'd have such info. Same problem I have with bones. Since people don't eat bones, no one I've found has done a nutritional breakdown of them. >>
I agree Peggy. Bet u dollars to doughnuts, they have no idea:(
That book I read over the weekend "Nutrition Desk Reference" said that hi protein diets in humans can lead to osteoporosis, and I immediately thought aha, it's that hi Phos not balanced w/ bones! The authors said it was due to humans eating too many eggs and too much meat.
But since we grind the bones or add bonemeal, I was extrapolating to cats again and trying to work out in my mind what you and I have always maintained - if the food is balanced i.e Na-K, and Cal-Mag-Phos etc. then really a hi protein diet for an obligate carnivore shouldn't cause kidney failure but I can see how an unbalanced diet could cause problems.
I've been mulling something else over. I know lots of cats w/ CRF who are on the ubiquitous lo-protein diet, and it gets a bit muddy to sort out b/c we can't be sure of the quality of the protein in commercial food. However, those cats invariably have terrible muscle wasting, which their humans then try to fix by giving anabolic steroids etc. And in Boo's case, he has been eating regular protein food but again, it has been commercial so same problem and he too has terrible muscle wasting.
So, what I am trying to figure out is why does this happen? Because as carnivores, they need meat, and hi quality meat at that, so when they don't get it, does the body sort of attack itself and draw upon reserves? If so, what would a hi protein (balanced w/ Cal and Phos, not just hi meat) diet do for a cat w/ CRF? Obviously I'm not a vet and don't advocate people run out and try this; just bouncing ideas off you all.
Anyone know of a cat on a hi-protein diet and how said kitty is doing? Just curious. Wonder if anyone has done a study like this in the vet community..
Sandy
Dear Pam,
I am so very sorry to hear about Smudge:(( 3.9 lbs??!! Has she always been so tee tiny? Poor kitty. If u are giving subqs, make sure her heart has checked out fine, and given how small she is, I'd keep subq amounts lower than normal in her case.
As for food, I think k/d is vile so would not feed it but u might consider syringe-feeding her Hills AD (not bad ingredients) mixed in w/ some supplements. If she eats on her own, that's wonderful.
Purrsonally, I believe in hi quality bio-available protein. The debate on lo vs. regular protein levels for cats w/ CRF rages on so u have to pick a side and run w/ it. I am currently feeding my CRF cat the same food that my other cats eat, only I cook it, run it thru a blender, and then suck it up w/ a syringe. I mix some enzymes, acidophilus, apple cider vinegar and fish oil to the food. Course Boo also gets other supplements for his kidneys and heart (email me if u want that info).
One thing u can do herbally speaking is get some dandelion leaf either in tea bags or loose dried herbs or tincture. Mix this w/ Smudge's food and give it to her. I swear by Dandelion leaf. When Boo was first diagnosed w/ HCM, he had a lot of fluid in his lungs for which he was prescribed Lasix. But Lasix has side-effects like loss of potassium etc. so I gave dandelion (and a little Hawthorne Berry) instead. 2 weeks later when I took him in to the vet, she said there were no signs of fluid in the lungs...all thanks to Dandelion and hawthorne berries (for his heart) which also has a slight diuretic effect. Basically, u wanna help Smudge's kidneys as much as possible and dandelion helps flush out the toxins while maintaing the correct Na-K balance in the body.
Let me know if I can help in any way. Yes, the CRF list is a great resource and the people on that list are very kind and caring so I would highly recommend it. Majority of people who post to that list follow the allopathic route so as long as that's not an issue, check it out.
Sandy
<<Took Smudge to the vet (allo) this morning and got a dx of kidney failure based on blood work. >>
Oh, I'm so sorry! Give Smudge a big hug for me.
<< (The vet says she can't determine if Smudge has crf)>>
Huh? So, what are the other possibilities?
<< This is my absolute favorite of all my cats, and I realize this is already going to shorten her life (she's 8 yrs. old)>>
Possibly. But my boss' parents' cat, Lucky, is going on 15 after being diagnosed as having practically no kidney function 7 years ago. So, life is possible.
<<What should I be doing to insure my other cats don't get this (if that's possible)?>>
There's the rub. We don't know but have theories. Sandy and I believe
that it's dangerous to lower protein (quality protein is more important),
but others think low-protein is the way to go. Definitely, though, no dry
food. Distilled water. Those are not controversial. As few additives, preservatives,
toxins as possible. You want the kidneys to have to do as little work as
possible. The way I see it, cat kidneys were meant to filter very specific
types of foods (live prey, meat and bones, with some veggie stomach contents)
in a specific way (bloody raw, thus sending a lot of water through the
system at the same time as the
solid food goes through). My feeling is that if you try to stick as
closely to that as possible you have the best chance possible.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Peggy
Hester and Elleander
<<Can I get some more feedback from you about why dry food is bad.>>
No proof, but this is my instinctive feeling. For one, dry food is as highly processed as you can get and full of grains and possibly noxious additives. However, I also just feel that cats, as desert animals who are suppose to get most of their water from their food, weren't designed to process food devoid of liquid. That it just creates more work for the kidneys to have to deal with food without water.
Peggy
Hester and Elleander
Hi everyone,
Am I understanding correctly that Smudge has kidney disease, but the vet is unsure if it is progressed into renal failure? Either diagnoses, the treatment is the same. Well, for end stages....
<<What things should I have ready for her when she comes home? >>
I use a herbal tonic from Animals Apawthecary called Senior Blend. Dandelion, Milk thistle, Gingko, Hawthorn, Oatstraw, Garlic, and Marshmallow. I visualize Sandy standing in the kitchen over a hot stove stirring and stirring her home prepared tonic ;)
<<What should I consider feeding her (aside from K/D, which the vet suggested)? >>
I'm on the lowered protein side of the debate. For a while I did add more meat to the foodies, not as much as a maintance diet though, and Sammy's #'s went up. I prefer Frazier's kidney diet, but I don't use any mix. Since the foodies are 55% grain, I've found that if I cook the grain in the meats drippings, it's more palatable. If you serve raw, maybe you can use unsalted butter in the grains cooking water. It has just recently been determined on the crf list that the dry Purina kidney diet is better than the dry k/d. It has no by-products. I asked my vet to review the ingredient labels and she agreed that Purina dry was better than the Hill's dry. Mind you, that dry food is not the ultimate food you'd want to feed. It falls way at the bottom cause like Peggy said, it's the water, and inferior ingredients. But it just so happens Rudy won't eat homemade or canned.
3.9 pounds!! Did Smudge lose weight due to the icky teeth?
On Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:47:01 -0500 Judy <critterz@> writes:
<<Am I understanding correctly that Smudge has kidney disease,
but the vetis unsure if it is progressed into renal failure?
Either diagnoses, the treatment is the same. Well, for end stages....>>
My understanding is that CRF is a general term and includes a lot of kidney-related problems. Many of the kidney diseases end up scarring the kidneys and/or reducing kidney function so really each of our cats could have something diff wrong w/ their kidneys. When I look at homeopathic Repertories, I'll see terms like Dropsy, Bright's Disease, Nephritis etc, and I really wish I knew just what was wrong w/ Boo's kidneys. His last vet said his one kidney was actually getting bigger, whereas most cats w/ CRF have shrinking kidneys; heck his too were 1/2 the size just a yr ago. Tasha's were about 25% of the normal size:(
<<Marshmallow. I visualize Sandy standing in the kitchen over a hot stove stirring and stirring her home prepared tonic ;)>>
LOL! Actually that's exactly what I do throwing in some healing
energy for the Booey bear! I make enough for a week or so and store
it in small containers. Loose herbs are cheap and I really don't
mind the bother of brewing them (some using decoction method; others using
infusion method) but one problem w/ them is I never know just how much
of the herb's active ingredients I am getting each time. Tinctures
are better that way, and the Senior Blend has some great herbs in there
very soothing to
the kidneys, like marshmallow. I also add cornsilk to my mix
sometimes.
<<any mix. Since the foodies are 55% grain, I've found that if I cook >>
Judy, grains have protein too, like millet, quinoa, amaranth etc. have protein in the 12-14% range, and they also have Phosphorous. But then u've probably already incorporated that in your estimates for what protein should be.
<<It has just recently been determined on the crf list that the dry Purina kidney diet is better than the dry k/d. It has no by-products. >>
Biting my tongue! <VBG>
Sandy-
Peter Morrell, who works with Dr. Jansen, so far is the only one who has been able to look at Boo's info. He said he'd leave it for Jane and Wim Jansen to look at after they get back after vacation.
Peter says that he thinks Boo is on too many herbs. He says from their experience that vitamins and homeopathics are what works best in animals and children.
He thinks colloidal silver directly into Boo's mouth 1 t. /2x per day along with 3 to 5 drops of trace minerals which must be from TRACE MINERALS RESEARCH 2x per day (which taste bad he said) - will go a long way towards making Boo feel a LOT better.
He said to continue with CoQ10.
For the heart he thinks something homeopathic such as homeopathic cactus tablets from BHI 1 tablet 3x per day or another for the heart but not herbal.
He wasn't sure the shark cartilege was necessary and said if you haven't seen improvement in arthritis since you started giving it then it might not be necessary tho if you suspect cancer than it may be alright.
He said Boo should get grapessed extract 1 mg/lb of body weight and if giving grapeseed you don't need C,E and A also.
He said if he had to add some herbs he'd pick estralagus and dandelion tho he said dandelion might be stimulating the kidneys to do more work than they can do since it is a diuretic. He said possibly hawthorne or fo ti for a third.
Generally he said it takes much less to cause change in an animal. He said if Boo was a human he'd say keep on doing what you are doing but he thinks and in general less is more when it comes to natural medicine. They try to limit remedies to no more than five.
He did say that if you were going to use herbs instead, he would switch herbs because Boo could build up a resistance to them. Also take one day off a week from taking the herbs and supplements to allow the body to normalize before resuming taking the supplements. The supplements work much better if you take a day or two off before resuming taking them.
The beginning of the week I'll see if Dr. J and his wife have anything different to recommend.
Emily
Welcome to the list Katrina, Lou, and Ann (from a fellow Himmie lover)!
Katrina, so sorry to hear your kitty Mr. Cat has CRF:( There are many of us on the list w/ CRF cats. I lost my seal-point Himalayan to kidney failure and have another one similarly afflicted so I empathize.
Lou wrote:
<<The kittens breeder recommended IAMS and says her cats have
had no kidney problems since using it.>>
I know many many cats who ate Purina Cat Chow all their lives w/ no problems..many lived to be in their 20s, so who's to say IAMS is bad for some cats. Go w/ what u feel comfortable, I say.
Both my Himmie and Persian developed kidney failure on "premium" commercial food (mostly dry) so my own experience is not good. I'm sure genetics plays a big part so maybe my 2 cats being rescues from a bakcyard breeder had a lot to do w/ it; wouldn't surprise me.
<< What do y'all recommend? The older cat has had some problems in the past and I want to avoid problems with the new kitten too-E.>>
How cute - E..I love it! I used to call my Himmie T, short for Tashie.
Personally, I'm not taking any more chances w/ food so I have my younger 3 cats (2 exotic Persians and 1 American Shorthair, all from reputable breeders) on a homemade diet w/ no chemicals, dyes, and preservatives. I grind cornish game hens or chickens whole using a manual grinder. To the meat (about 77-80%), I mix some pureed raw veggies (15%), and tiny bit of cooked whole grain (2-3%).
As for cats w/ declining kidney function, bottom line is to try and preserve what little is left. To that end, I believe in the following:
Sandy
Christine R. wrote:
<<Following is the address to the IAMS abstract: http://www.iams.com/fftfb/library/tpn/1%2D60396.htm >>
This is very interesting. They say that the testing has been done on rats, and that dogs kidneys aren't the same as a rat, but they make no mention of a cat, in that section. Research for humans is done all the time, and for a purrson with kidney probs they say to eliminate all animal protein from the diet--thought I'd add that since they're comparing different species. Also they say that at a specific time the protein should be reduced, when the BUN reaches 60. The part that blows me away the most was that the idea of lowering protein is from the 1940's! Does this mean there have been no studies done since then?
From my little 'at home' trial, I can report that after I raised Sammy's protein % his BUN went from a normal 27 to 43, and his creatinine from 2.6 to 3.3 The 27 and 2.6 held for 5 blood tests
Pam wrote:
<<Here are her abnormal numbers:
BUN 77.7
CREA 5.31
TP 11.76
Can anybody tell me what all this means?>>
Pam, how is Smudge doing? Don't remember if your question was answered. Anyway, here's some info from the CRF webstite: http://www.best.com/~lynxpt
On that site, they mention that the optimal #s for BUN and Creat should
be 11.7 - 33.3 MG/DL and .5 - 1.8 MG/DL,
respectively.
Were these her #s before or after the "diuresis" at the vets? At any rate, please don't let the #s be your only guide. So many cats w/ far worse values do quite well for many yrs.
I'm still looking for the info on the other #s you posted. Meanwhile,
here's a snippet from the CRF website about BUn
and Creat:
__
Blood Tests
Common Tested Blood Values Relevant to CRF Cats
BUN (blood urea nitrogen)
BUN is a waste product excreted through the kidneys. BUN is more reflective
of dietary impacts than creatinine. An increase in BUN can also be due
to dehydration (a symptom of CRF and many other diseases and syndromes).
Creatinine
Creatinine is a waste product excreted through the kidneys. It is indicative
of overall declining kidney function.
Hello,
I normally don't like to post to public lists, but I had to jump in to make a brief comment here regarding the optimal protein to carb/fat ratio for a crf cat.
<<This is very interesting. They say that the testing has been done on rats, and that dogs kidneys aren't the same as a rat, but they make no mention of a cat, in that section. >>
I got this study from medline. Warning: this is an abstract of a study where they induced crf in cats by removing parts of thier kidneys! So sad.
"Influence of dietary protein/calorie intake on renal morphology and function in cats with 5/6 nephrectomy.
"Adams LG, Polzin DJ, Osborne CA, O'Brien TD, Hostetter TH Department
of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of
Veterinary Medicine, University of Minnesota, St. Paul.
Lab Invest 1994 Mar;70(3):347-357
"BACKGROUND: Although still controversial, several studies in humans
have suggested That dietary protein restriction may
slow the rate of progression of chronic renal failure. Thus, the influence
of dietary protein on renal function and progression of
renal failure has been the subject of numerous studies in several animal
models of chronic renal failure, including rodents, dogs,
and baboons. Because of the high incidence of chronic renal failure
in aged cats, and the high dietary protein requirements of
cats, we studied the effects of dietary protein intake on renal function,
proteinuria, and renal morphology in cats with reduced
renal mass.
EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN: Partial (5/6) nephrectomy was performed in 14 young adult female cats. Sham surgical procedures were performed in eight control cats. Control cats and cats with 5/6 nephrectomy were randomly assigned to diets containing either 27.6% (low) or 51.7% (high) protein and studied for 1 year.
RESULTS: Renal mass reduction by 5/6 decreased glomerular filtration rate by 2/3 and significantly increased proteinuria. Cats with remnant kidneys had significantly higher systolic and mean blood pressures than control cats. Increased dietary protein/calorie intake significantly increased glomerular filtration rate and proteinuria in all cats. Glomerular filtration rates remained stable in all cats over the year of study. However, high protein/calorie intake resulted in significant renal morphologic injury in remnant kidney cats that was prevented by dietary protein/calorie restriction. Light and electron microscopic glomerular changes in remnant kidney cats fed the high protein diet were similar to changes previously reported in rats and dogs with remnant kidneys.
CONCLUSIONS: Dietary protein/calorie restriction limits proteinuria and glomerular injury in cats with remnant kidneys in a fashion similar to that reported in rats. However, the remnant kidney model in the cat appeared to be associated with a slower rate of progression compared with kidney model in the cat appeared to be associated with a slower rate of progression compared with rats."
There were other cat studies with similar results.
Unless I don't understand the above, it seems clear that reduced protein is best. (although this certainly is not true for healthy cats or kittens)
I feel certain that the quality of protein is very important also.
I lost a cat to crf a few years ago, and have thought about this alot since then. The problem with a low protein diet is getting them to eat it, (I didn't have much luck.) But if you can keep them on a low protein diet without weight loss, that is probably the best way to go. My $.02. Back to lurking!
Mimi Osterwalder
My Persian, Sam, ate Iams until he was 3, when we switched to an Innova
& Solid Gold mixture with some supplements. He was
diagnosed with CRF at age 4. My vet has us mixing his food
with white rice and a litle seaweed, to cut the protein. I've
heard some AIDS patients use this as well, as it is supposed to have
a cleansing effect too.
Jamie W
mom of Samson, Sabrina, Shecky, and Precious
SandyC7606@ wrote:
<<But I haven't found a good recipe for the grain.
I think cornmeal or pollenta have possibilities. Last nite I cooked
the cornmeal in beef broth but no luck.>>
Hi everyone,
I cook a kidney diet also (anyone here *not* know that ;) I add the drippings from the cooked chicken to the grains cooking water. If there isn't enough grease, I'll add some unsalted butter. The taste test is if Sammy will lick the grains cooking pot clean, then I know I got a tastey batch of foodies.
Thanks Mimi for posting the protein study for crf!
XNTRKME@ wrote:
<<What is the kidney diet you cook? I'm looking for stuff
for Smudge.>>
Hi everyone,
I basicly follow Fraziers recipe. 4 parts grain, 2 parts meat, 1 part veggie. The grain I prefer is barley, the meat is chicken with organs-- I also add eggs, per my vet, and veggies are usually carrots, parsley root or parsnips.
I'm still using eggshells to correct the phosphorus in the foodies, BTW I haven't heard back from the egg farms yet. Since the recipe is 55% grain, I also take the grains cal/phos into concideration when figuring out the ratio. I add Kombu to the grains cooking water to add minerals in too, and lots of fresh garlic!
I'm back to adding Flaxseed oil into the foodies. Sandy, you were right all along!! Is Flaxseed oil freezable? I've been adding it to the whole batch of food, prior to putting in small containers and freezing.
Leah also follows a kidney diet for Giddy. Are you cooking it now Leah?
Hello,
<<I just wanted to make a comment on the below listed article and the high-protein vs low protein for crf debate. In the study, these cats were probably not given high quality, organic, raw meat.>>
Yes, there are a number of things that we are not told about the study, what the cats were fed is one of them. It's possible, since they were doing research to improve nutrition for human renal failure patients, that they had sense enough to use good quality protein. No one disputes that high quality protein is important for renal failure patients. (allo/holistic, vets/human medicine) That's why I don't understand it when people say quality vs quantity--high quality protein is virtualy undisputed. (except for the manufacturers of the low-protein canned foods, who apparently think that low quality protein is best.) They are two separate issues.
<<So, let's say that high protein wasn't so much of a concern as quality. If they were given inferior meat, (snipped)Hope I made sense, had trouble trying to figure out exactly how to say what I was trying to.>>
Yes that makes perfect sense. I would agree that if they did use poor quality protein, their results are useless.
I would also like to know if any cats died during the study, and if the cats maintained their weight during the study. Sometimes they don't consider these kinds of things to be important in research, but we know that they are. :^)
$.02 more from me!
Thanks for all the interesting reading.
Mimi Osterwalder
Okay, I'm going to quote the conclusions that the kidney disease article (from "Dogs in Canada, August 1998) came to.
I'd be happy to provide more details from the article if you want, but I'm too lazy right now.
Peggy
Hester and Elleander
Well, here I am again with Sanjay's biggest problem!
Some of you may remember me telling about paraffin oil as very fine working against const. Well, somehow it does _not_ work anymore. So I asked my vet again. And she recommended everything I read already on this list. She even said every other oil works the same - though she was the one who told me about the different (=better) effect of paraffin! Sometimes I just wonder....
I am now trying the Psyllium which is part of a brand called Agiolax
in Germany for the use in humans. I still am not sure if that will be the
right solution as everything besides oil tears more water out of the already
dehydrated body of an crf cat. That is why I did not try Lactulose. If
the Psyllium does not work there is said to be sth called "clistirel" or
so, a supository. All the other things do not work with Sanjay as he is
_only_ eating his food purely - as soon as I put something over or into
it he refuses it.
Sanjays const. is really getting the biggest problem as this affects
his whole condition. Poor little boy.
Regards, Susanne
Susanne and Sanjay -
I believe Peggy might have already mentioned this, but there's a stool softener treat recipe in Anitra's book:
1 T. baby food vegetables and meat mixture
1/2 tsp. melted butter
1/8 tsp. ground psyllium husks
1/8 tsp. powdered or fine bran
2 T. or more of water ( use your judgement)
As many have mentioned, it's important when they get psyllium to get adequate water intake too. I used the above for Simon and found it worked well. It's not as harsh as some other types of things might be and is easier on the system of a crf kitty.
Leah
lknipp@
Hi Susan,
Just got the subscriber summary and I'm glad to see you're on the list. Hope we can help you. How sad about your kitty being unwell:( I lost a seal-point Himalayan to kidney failure, and I feel I really let her down terribly *sniff*
Her younger brother has both CRF and hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) so I can't give subqs either (no big loss as far as I am concerned). I know how you must feel - despair, guilt, hopelessness..a long list:(( But really, there *is* hope. I'm not just saying it to make you feel better. My cat Booey was given 2-3 weeks to live, and we're at almost 16 months. We've had our share of ups and downs but Booey and I keep chugging along like the little engine that could.
What are your cat's BUN, Creatinine, Phos, Sodium, PCV, etc. values? In case you haven't been to this site, check it out - http://www.best.com/~lynxpt
There is a section there on blood tests, and what some of the kidney-related components mean. There is also a mailing list for CRF kitty parents. Info for subbing is at that website.
At any rate, I'm not obsessed w/ the blood #s other than to figure out
if Booey is anemic and/or needs more potassium
supplementation. Each cat is so diff that only u know what will
work for you and your kitty. Keep your chin up, and feel free to
write me privately if you need a shoulder to cry on. Sadly, been
there, done that, twice. Hopefully I've paid my dues to Bastet by
now.
Here's what I give my cat. I am not a vet or a herbalist so take it for what it is worth, ok? BTW, I use loose dried herbs but u can use tinctures (diluted 2 water:1 herbal tincture). Here's the website (really cool site) I used to learn how to brew and administer herbs: http://www.acupuncture.com
Booey's regimen: (he is a 6.5 - 7 lbs black Persian)
Morning:
For the heart:
I use a pill gun that holds about 4-5 pills. I use only human-grade supplements. We give like 2 pills and then squirt some liquid, then more pills, more herbal liquid. He is just a little doll and very easy to pill. His Himmie sister was another story so I hope yours is like Booey. Otherwise if your Himmie is eating, mixing stuff in food is best. No way I could have done any of this stuff w/ Tasha.
I have been force feeding Booey raw food (regular protein, not lowered)
mixed up in a blender. I add some digestive
enzymes, acidophilus, and apple cider vinegar to his food.
Whew! I hope I didn't inundate you. I have other info on CRF and am constantly updating my files so lemme know. I'm here for you, and will help in any way I know how.
Take care Susan, and hugs to your Himmie baby from my Persians:) Special hugs for all CRF cats from me; they are just too precious for words.
Sandy
Hi Susan,
Did the vet say Isaac does not have CRF based on the blood values? Do u have a copy of the report? Sometimes people don't think slightly elevated BUN, Creat, etc. are cause for concern but I beg to differ. It's better to get started on preserving kidney function as much as possible, I feel. Esp in Persian cats (my favorite) who seem to often have genetic predisposition:(
<<Increased his heart med 2 times a day. >>
Is this Enacard or some sort of allo drug he's getting? Be very
careful w/ that stuff. A cat on the CRF list just had a very serious
complication from Enacard and almost died:( I hate Cardizem too
cuz I read it can worsen kidney function..thanks but no thanks!
<<Heart rate--240 Showed me how to do it myself wit stepth.>>
Oh dear, poor Isaac!:( That's what Booey's was too. I think normal should be in the 140 - 160 range. Don't wanna alarm u but if possible, get his BP checked. Or start him on Hawthorne berries and garlic as apreventive.
<<has him on-- in case this helps any of you. For Hypertropic, terminal EPA- Taurine, Cataplex A Cataplex B, Cardio-Plus , Cardio Guard . He has some crystals--8.5 urine>>
EPA is great for the heart and kidneys so that's good. I suppose the Cardio Guard and Plus are combos w/ various herbs and supplements so that should be good too - fewer pills, huh. Never heard of the Cataplex - what's in it?
For the crystals, try some powdered/crystal Vit C in the form of ascorbic acid. And give him some cranberry capsules/unsweetened concentrate.
<<Sandy--your black persian-my dream cat!!! I have 2 himis, seal, choc pointe- 4 persians, chinc, cream smoke, blue, b&w (tux) but o black is my favorite >>
Ohhhh you have me drooling here Susan!:)) To have so many Persians..cool! I have 2 exotics which are sweet lil teddy bear cats but I must confess regular Persians are still my favorite. Hugs to all your Purrsian sweeties from me and mine.
Sandy
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