<1/20/99 From: Susan Wynn Re: FIP questions/dr. wynn?>

I am not aware of an acknowledged successful protocol for FIP.  One hears of anecdotal successes here and there by some homeopaths, for instance, but we never get reassurance that the disease was definitively diagnosed. So we don't know whether it was FIP that was cured at all.

As for immune building, I would say no.  This is a viral disease where the virus hijacks the immune system, causing one branch of it to *over-react*. I really don't know how to approach this problem.  I suspect that there are immunemodulator herbs that would help, but we don't know how to distinguish them, yet, from immunemodulators that would hurt.

In these cases, my best approach has been to treat symptomatically - homeopathy, Chinese herbs, acupuncture - but I still don't feel like we have great success rates when the disease is really proven to be FIP.  I would love to hear if someone is having *consistent* success with *definitively diagnosed* FIP.

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Vick wrote:
<< all this stuff about FIP really has me curious -- dr wynn, is there a current  holistic protocol for cats whose titers suggest an FIP positive status?  e.g. for cats (and d*gs) with cancer, there are diet suggestions and supplements  that seem to show some promise. for FeLV, i think the approach is an immune and  health-building one. for FIP, would it be the same approach?>>

Susan G. Wynn, DVM

I would generally stimulate the immune system in FeLV, FIV, and perhaps in general in cats with recurrent infections of many sort.  Immune boosting is contra-indicated in autoimmune diseases (uncommon in cats), and probably also in allergic diseases.

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Kathy B wrote:
<<The discussions about FIP have me wondering if there are other such diseases that immune-boosting would be  cunterproductive to. I seem to recall that  FelV is another such disease, is that so? Are there others?  >>

Susan G. Wynn, DVM

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Vick wrote:
<<for an asymptomatic cat, tho, is there some hope that a really good diet would be the  foundation, then treat as symptoms arise?>>

Yes, diet always helps.

<< and isn't the only 'definitive' diagnosis via autopsy? one of my first days at work, i  got to watch a spay on a stray cat. the vet opened her up and there was fluid  EVERYWHERE. the cat was euthanized on the table and i ended up with an anatomy lesson  that showed enlarged glands and lesions on several organs. we sent some of the fluid  and a few tissue samples to the lab and they said it was FIP.>>

I am not sure if we even know how to get a definitive diagnosis.  At the moment, the best is to do PCR on ascitic fluid (as someone mentioned).  Serology (from blood) really isn't much good, and the new PCR tests on blood aren't much better, according to my reports, but I haven't kept up on the science with those- I am waiting for lots of field evidence.

We don't know what inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) is.  In my opinion, most cases are food allergies, and respond very well to elimination diets. Allergy is certainly one of those cases where I would avoid immune stimulation.

Remember - you can possible *modulate* the immune system without stimulating it.  Perhaps glandulars actually balance different parts of the immune response - in fact, we believe that glandulars may actually suppress autoimmune responses.

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 Jnglecats@ wrote:

<<Would you consider inflammatory bowel disease an autoimmune condition?  I know some vets do and some don't.  My holistic vet gave me a glandular to use to boost Cleo's immune system, some homeopathic remedies, but mostly we used
acupuncture.  She is ok now on a raw diet, but throws up if she eats anything  else.  I have been avoiding supplementing her since I hear differing opinions  - many allo vets seem to think this disease is an allergy problem only.>>

Susan G. Wynn, DVM

Lee,

I'm so sorry to hear about Georgie :(  I think I understand what George's mom is going through....it was Ernie's illness and passing which brought me to a deeper exploration of natural modes of healing and health for myself and  for my kits.  George sounds like a little angel.

Essiac is also a liver tonic, so it probably would be okay unless George's mom feels she is stressing George out when administering it. (dosage is 1/2 to 1 tsp daily) CJ Puotinen notes that those w/ kidney ailments or arthritis should not use Essiac because the tea contains oxalic acid (Encyc. of Nat Pet Care, 303). Here's what Puotinen says about FIP (can't remember if you have the
book):

"Holistic veterinarians warn against treating FIP w/ antibiotics or cortisone drugs, for these ineffective therapies only weaken the animal.  Nutrition, homeopathy, herbs and other natural methods may or may not eliminate the virus....Provide a natural diet, give the animal extra vitamin C and disinfecting herbs and treat whatever symptoms develop....

After Wendell Belfield successfully treated two cats with advanced FIP by removing their enlarged spleen and giving them intravenous vitamin C,  other veterinarians did the same and their patients recovered.  There is always hope for FIP patients..." (456)

Susan

PS Here's a website w/ some holistic info on FIP treatments:  http://www.do2.com/fip/

<<Hi, all.  Some of you may remember about 6 months ago I started posting about a friend's cat, George (6 yrs old) we suspected had FIP (feline infectious peritonitous).   He had suddenly started throwing up, and lost a great deal weight very quickly.  Altho there was no definitive diagnosis of FIP, it was suspected because 1) his mother, before he was born, apparently was exposed  FIP.  It was not discovered until a few years later, when she got ill.  That was about 5 years ago, and all the vets said the mother should be put down to protect the other cats, even tho she was not yet seriously ill.  Had it been today, most people would have realized that the corona virus (which causes FIP) is present in most multicat situations, but only cats with poor immune systems will develop FIP.  2) George's liver is enlarged, but seemed to stop enlarging with prednisone.  Had it been a tumor, the pred. would not have stopped the liver from growing.

Ok, there's the background for those of you who didn't know or couldn't remember.  Here's the current situation.

George has lasted all these months on prednisone (he is currently on only on half tablet every other day) and herbal milk thistle/dandelion combo.  He eats ravenously but does not gain weight (he still looks emaciated).  He shows discomfort sometimes sitting or lying, probably because he is so thin his bones don't have any protection.  Lately he has not been able to jump up on the countertops or the bed.  While he loves to play with the feather toys, even if only for a few minutes, lately he has not been able to get the energ to do that (you can tell he wants to).  However, he still purrs and begs for attention.  He does not seem to be in actual pain, altho he is uncomfortable He doesn't seem ready to go yet, but his owner wants to do whats best for him - if it's time for him, she will put him down.

The owner does not want to stop the prednisone - she feels it is the only reason he is able to keep food down, and I can hardly argue with that.  Her vet wants to put Georgie on interferon, but she is wary about side effects a such, and doesn't know how much it could really help him at this late stage. I suggested she increase the the milk thistle/dandelion to once a day instead
of every other day.  I was also thinking about essiac tea - we don't really know if this is FIP, cancer or some other thing, and the owner doesn't want do more tests.  All the tests are very invasive and very expensive, and probably the exact diagnosis wouldn't change much anyway.   I guess what we are really looking for is how to make him more comfortable.  Of course she
would like to prolong George's life, but only if he is going to be happy and comfortable.

Does anyone have any input on whether essiac tea would be useful at this point?  I know it's rather late in the disease process.  bTW, the last time his blood values were done (about 2-3 months ago) all were NORMAL.

If anyone can offer more suggestions for George and his mom, I would really appreciate it.  This list was so helpful in the past with George, I'm sorry rehash all this, but I think his mom is more willing to listen to this stuff than before, now that it looks like George may not be around much longer.

Lee>>

Hey all --

<<If anyone can offer more suggestions for George and his mom, I would  really appreciate it. >>

Lee, I'm so sorry to hear Georgie is doing poorly :(

He was tested for FELV and FIV, right? Cuz I don't think you're supposed to do immune enhancers in either of those cases, but for FIP, it's all ya got, according to my "Holistic Veterinary Handbook" ... Here's what Dr. Winter has to say:

HOLISTIC RATIONALE:

A deep, serious viral infection, usually fatal but worth trying to cure

TREATMENT PLAN:

1. Follow all the techniques for immune stimulation (see below)
2. If fluid buildup is severe, consider drainage by aspiration -- Avoid if possible.
3. Homeopathic remedy to remove fluid: Apis 6C or 30C, BID 7-10  days
4. AVOID OVERFEEDING (this is an inflamed state)
5. If anorexic, use appetite stimulants, B-12/Winstrol-V

1. Garlic - medium to high dose (his cat dose is 1 clove or capsule a day)
2. Echinacea (1-2 capsules a day)
3. Feed raw organ meat, esp thymus gland and sweetbreads
4. Prozyme (1/4 tsp per cup of food)
5. Chlorophyll
    a. Wheat grass (no dose given)
    b. Alfalfa (no dose given)
    c. Spirulina (1/8 - 1/4 tsp a day)
    d. Chlorella (1/8 - 1/4 tsp a day)
6. Bee Pollen (1/8 - 1/2 tsp a day)
7. Brewers Yeast
8. Ginseng (granules: 1/4 - 3/4 tsp a day)
9. Increased intake of fluids/liquids
10. Vitamin C - high levels (his cat dose is 500 - 1000 mgs/day)
11. Fresh, Whole foods - limit quantity to stimulate hunger
12. Sunlight, fresh air
13. Gentle exercise
14. "Thymus Thump" - massage or pat over thymus gland to  activate
15. Bathing, brushing and hands-on touch

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel