Following are selected posts to the Holisticat (TM) Mailing List on the subject of fish, especially re: feeding tuna. There's a lot of information here, and the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utilize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!

Happy hunting :)

On Sat, 24 Jul 1999, Elizabeth wrote:
<<Nadine thanks for the advice - I'm going to try the Quercitin.  I've  decided, after speaking with my regular vet and from others have told me - not to use the antihistamines at all.  I just have a bad gut feeling about them, and my vet doesn't like them either.  Someone else (don't have the name in front of me right now - sorry) mentioned stinging nettle also, which I'm also going to look into.>>

Must have been me; I'm a big fan of this herb.  Antihistamines (allo ones) have terrible side-effects, but Stinging Nettles does the same thing w/o any side-effects at all.  Plus it has a bunch of other good nutrients in it, so it doesn't just help suppress the sneezing.  It also has been proven to have the ability to reduce histamine production, so it and Quercitin are good preventives.  U can give your cat 1 pill each of SN and Querc.

<<Also, someone had mentioned that it's not a good idea to feed raw fish.  I've just been giving the cats canned salmon because I haven't been able to  get any raw yet, and would like to look at the concerns.  I look on the web  site and didn't see anything concerning fish, but maybe I'm looking in the  wrong place.  I know people on other lists I belong to feed their dogs raw  fish with good results - is it that there's a difference between dogs and cats in what they can eat?  I'd really like to hear some more about this.>>

I think it's the particular kind of fish that is imp.i.e. no bottom-feeders, no shallow lakes, etc.  Also some fish come from waters
polluted w/ mercury etc. I'm afraid I don't know more details than that. I have no idea if raw fish contains parasites or not; anyone know?

I don't see anything wrong w/ feeding your cat canned salmon every once in a while.  Add some Apple Cider Vinegar to balance out the hi sodium content from the tinning process.

Good luck to your kitty w/ the allergies; so glad to hear it's not a grain allergy!  Basically it's an immune system overreaction that's the problem w/ allergy sufferers, so take actions to boost her immune system and u'll see a big improvement.

Sandy and the mountain cats

Sandy,

Raw Pacific salmon has some kind of parasite (a fluke of some sort) that is very bad for dogs. I believe someone else on either this or another list (so many lists, so little time...) verified that it's only the Pacific salmon.  I also think that there are some of the fish
like tuna, swordfish etc, that have high levels of heavy metals. Doesn't stop me from eating them though :-)

<<I think it's the particular kind of fish that is imp.i.e. no bottom-feeders, no shallow lakes, etc.  Also some fish come from waters
polluted w/ mercury etc. I'm afraid I don't know more details than that. I have no idea if raw fish contains parasites or not; anyone know?>>

HI Sandy...

<<I think it's the particular kind of fish that is imp.i.e. no bottom-feeders, no shallow lakes, etc.  Also some fish come from waters
polluted w/ mercury etc. I'm afraid I don't know more details than that. I have no idea if raw fish contains parasites or not; anyone know?>>

FWIW, Pitcairn says, on p. 26 of his book: "....if you subsitute by using a little fish, rabbit, or pork now and then, yhou should cook
them first to kill parasites like tapeworms or trichinosis organisms, which these foods can carry".

Frazier, in THE NEW NATURAL CAT, p. 52, says:  "Besides the fact that the oil used with tuna depletes the system of vitamin E, tuna, as well as swordfish, salmon, and other carnivorous fish are at the top of the food chain and therefore contain larger amounts of mercury than do the bottom feeders like cod, scrod, haddock, halibut, and sole.  All fish bones, no matter how well cooked or how soft and crumbly, contain insoluble mineral salts that can form stones and gravel in the bladder and urinary tract."

Kymothy Schultze says on p. 24 of THE ULTIMATE DIET: NATURAL NUTRITION FOR DOGS AND CATS:  "...Do not feed raw salmon unless it has been certified free of salmon poisoning."  (Whatever *that* means!)

Just FYI... :)

Diane, Motley, and Taz

Hi Elizabeth....

<< How about using sardines?  I feed them to my dog and give the cats some too sometimes and now I'm wondering if it's not ok to use those.  I get them packed just in water.>>

I wonder about this also.  I give my cats sardines as a treat maybe once a week or so, but I am a little concerned about the added salt and I wonder if feeding sardines creates the samw problems as feeding tuna.  I generally use the ones packed in olive oil, but the author of one of my books (Frazier?) recommends sardines in tomato sauce.

Diane, Motley and Taz (who will be *really* mad if they can't have their sardines!)

<<I wonder about this also.  I give my cats sardines as a treat maybe  once a week or so, but I am a little concerned about the added salt  and I wonder if feeding sardines creates the samw problems as  feeding tuna.  I generally use the ones packed in olive oil, but the  author of one of my books (Frazier?) recommends sardines in tomato  sauce.>>

I've read those cautions regarding tuna, and in a pvt discussion Juliette and I had last week, we both wondered if human-grade tuna (the white as opposed to the cheapo red kind they use for poor kitties) is as bad as Frazier and others make it out to be.

I have yet to come across any info on good quality human tuna or sardines as an occasional treat for cats.  And Diane, I'd feed the sardines in oil too b/c for cats hardening of the arteries is not as much an issue as it is w/ humans.  My cats will not eat anything w/ tomatoes in it, no way no how.  All they want is meat w/o any pesky veggies or other things to get in the way.  Besides aren't tomatoes part of the nightshade family?  For that reason alone, I wouldn't feed it to my cats.

Thanks for all the info on raw fish, u guys.  I thought I had read someplace that raw fish should be avoided but didn't know why.  I tried steaming fresh fish for my stinkers, and they didn't like mama's cooking, the brats!  here I was a vegetarian stinking up my precious veggie steamer for them and they turn their noses up.  They get canned salmon, and mackerel now, and are very happy.

Sandy and the naughty mountain cats

Dear Sandy and list,

Sandy wrote: I have yet to come across any info on good quality human tuna or sardines as an occasional treat for cats.

My homeopathic vet put her foot down, very emphatically, on this issue for me. NO TUNA, EVER! (shades of Joan Crawford...) This was when my wiley was struggling with felv. She confirmed that the body oils in this fish act as magnets and rob our cats of nutrients. She was also concerned about toxins in them, as they are so high up on the food chain. She recommend I feed small salt-water fish, raw or lightly steamed. She also recommend that IF I decided to feed fresh water fish, that I steam those as she said they were more prone to parasites and bacteria. (at least that's what I have written in my journal.)  Her one exemption to the NO TUNA EVER rule was when wiley stopped eating all together-then and only then--I was allowed to use the juice as a flavoring agent to try and coerce him to eat. I miss that boy.

Sue

Hi all

<<I just spoke with a vet via e-mail about Ebony's skin condition.  He told me to give my cat nothing but human canned tuna for 2 weeks.  I'm sure that I read here in the past that tuna is very bad for cats.>>

NO! (Sorry, that's not a yell but a very worried "no"!)

Tuna will deplete the vitamin E, and the resulting condition can be very very painful indeed, where the cat cannot bear to be touched. Now granted, this isn't gonna happen in two weeks. But tuna is also very addictive, and you may well be stuck with a situation where Ebony refuses to eat anything but tuna. Bad news all the way around. Did this vet say *why* the tuna? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
 
 <<Ebony has an extremely raw looking neck which I explained to him and yet he tells me to buy some Advantage and pour it on his neck.  He said from what he can tell without seeing the cat and from my description that the problem could be a combo of flea allergy and food hypersensitivity.>>

It seems to me that it might not be a great idea to put a strong allo med on open wounds. What do *you* think, Jaclyn, is there any chance that the problem is fleas? I know you in Quebec have had a much warmer summer than we have out west, and the likelihood of fleas is far greater there than here. But that's something only you can know. And if fleas are the culprit, or
part of the culprit, if you do decide to try the Advantage, I would think it's best done with a live vet's supervision, simply because of the state of Ebony's neck. I know that some people feel that Advantage has truly been a blessing to them, especially in areas where fleas are really bad. But again, I would hesitate to try it on damaged skin. It seems wrong, somehow. If
fleas really are part of the problem, there are other, safer ways to deal with them.

I know you've had a nasty time with Ebony's skin, and I'm sorry :( Something will turn up to help!
Take care
Kathy and the cats

<<I just spoke with a vet via e-mail about Ebony's skin condition.  He told me to give my cat nothing but human canned tuna for 2 weeks.>>

I'm not a vet, but as mentioned before I have a cat with a chronic auto-immune skin condition called eosinophilic linear granuloma. I've always been told to stay away from tuna when a cat has skin problems. My cat's problem is under control with just natural treatments and supplements. I gave up putting topical stuff on him, because he'd always lick it off and
the licking would further irritate his already inflammed skin.

Susan E

Hi Sandy...

<<Compared to the other 2, I'd take tuna any day.

I've read about the Steatitis that cats can develop from eating tuna, but wouldn't supplementing w/ Vit E each day help counter that?>>

I agree, that compared to the other alternatives offered, i.e. antibiotics and cortisone, that tuna seems the lesser of the evils.

As far as the Steatitis is concerned... on page 52 of THE NEW NATURAL CAT, Anitra Frazier says in regards to adding Vit E to tuna: "....its effectiveness would be like putting a little chemotherapy pill into each pack of cigarettes."   She goes on to enumerate other reasons for not feeding tuna; i.e. that it is one of the fish at the top of the food chain and thus may contain higher amounts of mercury than the bottom feeders; and that tuna contains a high concentration of insoluble mineral salts that can form stones and gravel in the bladder and urinary tract.

That is FWIW....I have no personal experience or strong convictions on the subject- I'm just reporting what one well-known (and
well-respected, I believe) author says in her book.  :)

So, I guess my question would be...if a homemade diet, or the "allergy diet" commercial foods are not options, why not something like canned salmon with no salt?  Would that be any worse than tuna?

Just thinking about this...:)

Diane

Hi Diane,

<<As far as the Steatitis is concerned... on page 52 of THE NEW  NATURAL CAT, Anitra Frazier says in regards to adding Vit E to tuna:  "....its effectiveness would be like putting a little chemotherapy  pill into each pack of cigarettes."   She goes on to enumerate other>>

Wow, that's a pretty strong statement about a food item as opposed to something like cigarettes.  Maybe she should tell us how she really feels! LOL

<<reasons for not feeding tuna; i.e. that it is one of the fish at the  top of the food chain and thus may contain higher amounts of mercury  than the bottom feeders; and that tuna contains a high concentration  of insoluble mineral salts that can form stones and gravel in the  bladder and urinary tract.>>

Good point re the bottom feeders.  Same would be true for other such fish. Anyone know which fish would fall into this category.  Sorry if this is a dumb question, but among all meat fish are the hardest one for me to deal w/ (must be the smell or maybe those eyes looking up at me <shudder>)

I've seen it mentioned in other places too that most (not sure what that means) fish will cause that stones and gravel problem.  Has not been my experience but who can say.

<<That is FWIW....I have no personal experience or strong convictions  on the subject- I'm just reporting what one well-known (and  well-respected, I believe) author says in her book.  :)>>

Gotcha.  I don't have very strong opinions one way or the other.  Just thinking out loud b/c we have certain bits of info and piecing them together sometimes means trying to guess where the authors are coming from.

In Frazier's case, she makes some good points about tuna in general like the source, but we still don't know if eating crappy tuna causes Steatitis or is it going to happen even w/ good quality tuna i.e is it an inherent problem w/ tuna in general?  And what exactly causes the Steatitis - the tuna or the polluted waters or the bottom feeding?  I have no idea, so would love to know.  I guess I have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to strong statements that some authors make w/o anything to back 'em up necessarily.  if they do have some info, then share it w/ us; otherwise it falls in the category or fear-mongering.

<< So, I guess my question would be...if a homemade diet, or the  "allergy diet" commercial foods are not options, why not something  like canned salmon with no salt?  Would that be any worse than tuna?>>

I too would think Salmon and Mackerel would be better than tuna, provided they're not bottom feeders, and don't come from polluted waters.  I'm not too fond of feeding anything to my cats from a can b/c of the hi sodium content, and besides who knows what gets leached in the canning process.  I just don't like it tho sometimes it can't be avoided of course.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats who love fresh poached salmon, mama's nose be da*ned:)

Hi,

Just throwing another wrench into the tuna debate. I have a cat who puked violently after eating tuna (so obviously, she doesn't get it anymore) whether it was pet food tuna or tuna for human consumption. In fact, she puked every cat food that contained fish, even if it wasn't the "main" ingredient. Several vets have told me that many cats are sensitive to the
preservative used in canned fish. If tuna is an option, what about fresh white tuna?

However, the stuff about Mercury in tuna is true. In fact, I heard a report on NPR a while ago (and also on ABC) where it is now recommended that pregnant women and children limit their intake of tuna fish. The FDA, notoriously lenient on these matters, even recommends that pregnant women not eat more than one serving of tuna or swordfish per month, and children
limit their intake to no more than one serving per week. The larger predatory fish tend to contain the highest levels of mercury...although fish  advisories are also common for freshwater fish (these are done on a state-by-state basis). According to the FDA, harm to humans caused by methyl mercury poisoning can progress over a period of years, even AFTER exposure
has ended.

So...my cats never get canned fish of any kind, and they only get a small bite of fresh fish once in a blue, blue moon.

Hope this info was helpful.
--Pat

Date: Sunday, September 05, 1999   12:19:22 PM
From: Diane
Topic: [HOL] Re: Tuna - CORRECTION

Hi Sandy!

<<<As far as the Steatitis is concerned... on page 52 of THE NEW NATURAL CAT, Anitra Frazier says in regards to adding Vit E to tuna: "....its effectiveness would be like putting a little  chemotherapy pill into each pack of cigarettes>>>

I'm going to have to stop writing messages at night.  The above quote *is* from Frazier's book, on page 52, but should not have been attributed to her.  She says Steatitis results from the vegetable oil in which the tuna is packed robs the body of vitamin E, and that the disease can be cured by giving megadoses of vitamin E carefully supervised by a veterinarian and by discontinuing any food containing vegetable or mineral oil.  She then goes on to say that upon mentioning to one veterinarian that some cat-food companies were adding vitamin E to the tuna, the *doctor* replied with the above quote.  Sorry, to have implied that it was Anitra who made that statement!  :(

So, it sounds like it is the *oil* that causes the Steatitis.  I wonder then, if tuna packed in spring water is okay?  I don't feed
mine tuna at all, but it's an interesting question.

<<< reasons for not feeding tuna; i.e. that it is one of the fish at the top of the food chain and thus may contain higher amounts of  mercury than the bottom feeders; and that tuna contains a high  concentration of insoluble mineral salts that can form stones and  gravel in the bladder and urinary tract.>>>

<<Good point re the bottom feeders.  Same would be true for other such fish. Anyone know which fish would fall into this category.>>

If I understand Frazier's statements (and I well may not), she is saying that tuna, along with swordfish, salmon, and other
carnivorous fish are at the top of the food chain, and that is why they contain larger amounts of mercury than bottom feeders such as cod, scrod, haddock, halibut and sole.

<<I've seen it mentioned in other places too that most (not  sure what that means) fish will cause that stones and gravel
problem.  Has not been my experience but who can say. >>

I believe it is the fish bones that contain the insoluble mineral salts that can cause the stones and gravel problem.  Frazier says
that *all* fish bones contain these salts, but that tuna contains the highest concentration of these salts.  Why that is, she doesn't
elaborate.

Again from Frazier's book....she mentions a recent study at Cornell University which showed that tuna cat food had unusually high levels of the toxic metal methylmercury.  The Cornell researchers pointed out that the tuna used in cat food comes from the red meat part of the fish, which apparently contains more toxins than the white meat tuna sold for human consumption.  So, that seems to support your theory that feeding a better grade tuna would lessen the "evils" of feeding tuna, so to speak.  :)

<<I'm not too fond of feeding anything to my cats from a can b/c of the hi sodium content, and besides who knows what gets leached in the canning process>>

I have found a brand of canned salmon with at least no *added*  salt. The kitties get a little as a treat on their birthdays - but
not on a regular basis.  :)  They also sometimes get a little poached or grilled salmon when we have it.  They like the canned better.

Again, I apologize for misquoting Anitra Frazier.  I'll go back under my rock now.  <apologetic smile>

Diane, Motley and Taz

<<attributed to her.  She says Steatitis results from the vegetable  oil in which the tuna is packed robs the body of vitamin E, and that  the disease can be cured by giving megadoses of vitamin E carefully  supervised by a veterinarian and by discontinuing any food  containing vegetable or mineral oil.>>

It's soybean oil that's I've seen listed on tuna cans (for people food). Good to know just what she (and her source(s)) are basing this on.  That's the sort of thing I'm trying to figure out here w/ this conversation.  I'm not arguing just for the h*ll of it.  I want to know once and for all, should people even consider feeding fresh poached tuna (w/o salt, oil, broth etc that canned tuna contains) or would that too lead to steatitis.

From what u said above, then fresh poached tuna wouldn't cause this problem since it would contain no oils.  But we still have that mercury problem and what part of the food chain they are.  Makes sense to me then not to feed it at all (if possible, that is).

<<She then goes on to say that  upon mentioning to one veterinarian that some cat-food companies were adding vitamin E to the tuna, the *doctor* replied with the  above quote.  Sorry, to have implied that it was Anitra who made that statement!  >>

Oh no, no apology necessary Diane!:)  You were trying to help.  Besides lazy ole me here has Frazier's book (first holistic book I ever bought) so could have looked in there too.

<<So, it sounds like it is the *oil* that causes the Steatitis.  I  wonder then, if tuna packed in spring water is okay?  I don't feed
 mine tuna at all, but it's an interesting question. >>

Trader Joe's tuna is just that - tuna and water.  No broth and no other crappy ingredients.  That's what John makes his tuna salad out of.  He has an eager audience of 4 cats shamelessly begging.  I'd like to know too if it's safe b/c he asks me if it's ok to give them a teeny bit as a treat or would he be hurting them.  I usually tell him a tiny amount once every 2-3 weeks is probably ok.  For people too tho, the mercury in this stuff can't be good.  Thanks Pat for posting about the FDA reqmnts b/c like u say -
the FDA isn't exactly the strictest. After all, the chemicals in Advantage are used as pesticide on crops meant for human consumption.  The thanks for that probably goes to the USDA tho.

<<If I understand Frazier's statements (and I well may not), she is  saying that tuna, along with swordfish, salmon, and other
carnivorous fish are at the top of the food chain, and that is why  they contain larger amounts of mercury than bottom feeders such as cod, scrod, haddock, halibut and sole.>>

I checked some other books (for humans) and you're right.  The fish that eat other fish accumulate a lotta gunky stuff along the way.  How's that for a technical explanation? <g>  Hey this is hard for me given how much I hate fish, but anything for the cats, right?:)

I believe mackerel would fit into this category as well.  Shoot, it's hard for me to poach cod and halibut (which I can get cheap around here) b/c of the smell.  But now I'm glad I feed those to the cats given that they're lower down on the food chain.  They do get canned salmon and mackerel (no tuna tho) once a month or so.  If they had their druthers, they'd eat only fish all the time:(
 
<< I believe it is the fish bones that contain the insoluble mineral  salts that can cause the stones and gravel problem.  Frazier says  that *all* fish bones contain these salts, but that tuna contains  the highest concentration of these salts.  Why that is, she doesn't  elaborate.>>

Ok, now that does make sense.  I assume other animals' bones don't have this problem.  There's not much room for marrow in fish bones, eh? <g>

<<I have found a brand of canned salmon with at least no *added*  salt. The kitties get a little as a treat on their birthdays - but not on a regular basis.  :)  They also sometimes get a little poached  or grilled salmon when we have it.  They like the canned better.>>

Mine like canned better too despite all I have to put up w/ to feed the fresh...lil stinkers.  What brand of salmon is that Diane? I'll see if I can find it here locally.  That would be a find b/c I've never seen one yet w/o added salt:(

<< Again, I apologize for misquoting Anitra Frazier.  I'll go back under my rock now.  <apologetic smile>>>

No need Diane:)  I'm trying to make sense of this tuna and really all fish thing b/c the question comes up on the list all the time.

Seems like there are many dimensions to this issue, and before we believe any authors, we have to be clear just what type of fish they are talking about, and in what sort of preparation (salt, water, oil etc.)

I'm totally convinced that feeding pet grade red tuna is a bad idea.

Then we have the Bumble Bee and other grocery store brands that somehow don't seem as hi quality as what I see at Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, Mother's and other premium/organic-type stores.  Bumble Bee also has broth and preservatives added to it.

The next level would be Trader Joe's tuna which is good quality tuna + water.

And then there's also the tuna brands which seem to have hi quality tuna but are packed in oil which causes steatitis in cats.

So in the final analysis, we're left w/ only 2 viable choices: freshly steamed/poached tuna good quality human tuna packed in just water, and nothing else.

This takes care of the Steatitis issue but not the fact that it's eaten other fish on its journey to the top and contains mercury + possibly comes  from polluted waters.  We'd hope that the good brands would make sure their tuna source is good, so then that leaves the mercury issue.  And there doesn't seem to be any getting around that.

Jaclyn, call your vet, and ask if you can feed Ebony fresh lightly cooked tuna (do u have it available in your area?), and what his thoughts are on the insoluble salts and mercury issues.

Thanks to Diane, I now have a better idea as to which fish to buy for my cats:)  I'm so lucky I can get all of those bottom feeders for less than a $1 a lb.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

Hi all

Sandy wrote:
<<like the source, but we still don't know if eating crappy tuna causes Steatitis or is it going to happen even w/ good quality tuna i.e is it an inherent problem w/ tuna in general?  And what exactly causes the Steatitis - the tuna or the polluted waters or the bottom feeding?  I have no idea, so would love to know.>>

Here's a little more info on steatitis: _Let's Cook for Our Cat_ - Edmund Dorosz, DVM
"Some forty years ago it was observed that vitamin E was involved in the prevention of pansteatitis, yellow fat disease or steatitis. Steatitis - inflammation of body fat - was found to occur in kittens and cats fed diets of raw fish and especially red tuna in the absence of vitamin E. These cats would be sore and cry in pain when petted as a result of this condition. Generally, a vitamin E deficiency in our cat will appear as a combination of a loss of appetite, listlessness, general soreness and fever due to the inflammation of body fat."

_The Natural Remedy Book for D*gs & Cats_ - Diane Stein
"Cats get easily addicted to tuna, the oil of which robs their bodies of vitamin E and can result in a muscular dystrophy type of deficiency disease called steatitis. If you feed your cat tuna, limit it as much as possible, and supplement with vitamin E."

Jean, Saskibasket and Lil Amber

Hi guys,
I've only just caught the tail end of this thread, so forgive me if it's redundant...
check out this page on feeding tuna.  It sounds to me like the tuna is the problem, not just the oil...
http://www.listservice.net/wellpet/catstuna.htm

Cheers! Marnie:)

According to the Merck Vet Manual Steatitis is caused by " fish or fish by-product in all or part of the diet.  fish oil may be the primary agent."

Typical laboratory finding is an elevated leukocyte count, with neutrophilia and sometimes eosinophilia.

Treatment is elimination of the offending food from the diet and administration of Vitamin E in the form of  a-tocopherol at least 30 mg. daily for cats.

Neutrophilia means too many neutrophils...

neutrophils
Granular leukocytes having a nucleus with three to five lobes connected by slender threads of chromatin, and cytoplasm containing fine inconspicuous granules and stainable by neutral dyes

eosinophilia
<haematology> The formation and accumulation of an abnormally large number of eosinophils in the blood

eosinophils
A type of polymorphonuclear leukocyte containing eosin-staining granules. Although the activity of eosinophils is not entirely clear, they are known to destroy parasitic organisms and play a major role in allergic reactions. They also secrete chemical mediators that can cause bronchoconstriction in asthma. Eosinophils make up one to three percent of the total white blood cell count.

Sounds to me like tuna is treat food only...

Cheers! Marnie:)

Hi Holisticats.

I thought I should just add a few things that I have considered in choosing fish for myself and my cats.

1)  Not all parts of all oceans are equal.  Many types of fish can come from a variety of different locations around the year with different degrees of water cleanliness at different times of the year.

2)  The deeper the water that the fish comes from, the cleaner the water. So if you can get something that comes up only once a year, in mating season, for example, or when it is fished, then you may be getting a cleaner  fish.

3)  Cooked fish retains taurine at a higher rate than chicken, meat...someone else probably knows more, but it may be a factor if you're adding it back in (I don:t know...are there toxicity levels for the stuff? Anyways probably noone here would give that much for that long anyways!)

4)  Tuna's and possibly other fish packed in the US can sometime contain caseine.  Make sure the one you buy doesn:t.

When you buy the fish, look at it.  Know where it came from.  Make sure it doesn:t look like it was sick or something,  It:s easier to tell on the face and eyes, skin of the fish than by looking at a chicken breast.

Cats in Japan have been surviving on totally fish diets in canned and dry for quite some time.  Now while I think the commercial diet is not good, I think that the fish scare thing in the US is largely a product of the beef and dairy, chichen industry.  The problem with freshwater fish is dioxins. I don:t know of this problem as much for sea fish.  Lead is a problem from canning, not from fish.  In the Amazon, there is mercury in the water.  Look at where the fish come from, and you will have common sense to make an opinion.

Overall, I rate the health of the fish that I put on my table to be higher than that of chicken or cow.  Probably I will get flamed for saying this! But anyways, I think that the chicken in the US is pretty poor, and I stopped eating beef because the antibiotics make me sick, and they don:t have to give fish antibiotics (but they do to chicken...so?)

I give my cats both canned and raw fish a total of 2-4 times a week. or as a snack..  Onyx will only eat the raw, Mimi likes the fatty stuff cooked, too--mackerel, salmon...good for her, she needs to put on some weight.

I'm no expert but I am learning, for my own health and my cats.

Judi and Onyx and Mimi

----------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Monday, September 06, 1999   10:02:52 AM
From: Marnie
Topic: [HOL] Re: Tuna Again

Hi Diane,
 
IMO the Merck Manual is not the final word on feline nutrition as it is a result of the Agriculture/Veterinary industry and is sadly lacking in recommendations for Natural diets over pre-formulated diets.  Keeping this in mind, I value the research and recommendations of Feline Future Foundation above that of Merck... who just say the cause is *fish*.  I wouldn't doubt for a moment that Merck's data could be a tad outdated. Any articles I've read on Steatitis only names Tuna as the main culprit-
perhaps it contains the highest percentage of the agent which causes steatitis.

FF has this to say about fish... Note that they say the South Asian cat has adapted to a total fish diet which is why Judith is correct in saying that Japanese cats do well on a totally fish diet.  FF uses one teaspoon of salmon oil to 2 pounds of meat but they also add 300mg of Vitamin E

"Cats are all too commonly associated with a liking for fish. No doubt most like fish, espically the salty, oily, canned variety but that is no reason to assume that fish should be a main staple for our feline wards. Fish, in fact can do much harm. Only one cat from the family of Felis has adapted to a diet of fish: The South Asian Fishing Cat (felis viverrina) but not our domestic felis catus. Fish meat contains an enzyme called thiaminase that destoys the vitamin B1 (thiamin). It is also high in polyunsaturated fatty acids which oxidate with the vitamine E in the body resulting in an inflimation of the fatty tissue under the skin called Yellow Fat Disease (stetites) This is commonly observed in cats fed a diet containing large amounts of canned tuna. Predatory fish like tuna, salmon, or cod are loaded with toxic heavy metals from our polluted oceans, and once canned, retaine none of their nutritional value. In general avoid fish althogeather, although some may be fed sparingly - as a treat, cooked or raw. Favor those species low in the food chain such as smelt and herring, which are enjoyed by some cats when given occasionally.

Salmon oil was chosen because it can provide fatty acids without any risk of vitamin overdose that would result from using other fish-liver based oils (eg: Cod Liver oil). We no longer recommend plant based vegetable oils as a source of fatty acids for cats since cats are unable to break down plant matter and the fatty acids present in these oils are most likely unavailable to cats. Other fish oils not derived from liver would also be acceptable if available. "

Cheers! Marnie

whew! I was away for the weekend and walked (err, read) right into the middle of this tuna debate... my homeopathic vets  said NO to tuna with NO EXCEPTIONS (yes Vick, that is yelling ;-] ) for frazier's reason, the addicitive nature of it, the E-leaching properties of it... and so on.

she did say that smaller salt water fish were okay-smelt, snapper, mackerel, and haddock (yum yum said ted to the haddock-even though it's a bottom feeder) were what I bought and lightly steamed. also, salmon was given an okay as well. fresh water fish were not as highly recommended, as they were "prone to more bacteria, as they are usually raised in fish farms."

the problem I had with tuna is that when wiley was ill, he did not want to eat at all, and the only thing that would entice him was tuna juice poured over a puree of whatever it was that I wanted to feed him. my homeovet gave a reluctant okay to this-as the other choice was IV and we did not want to stress him.

may I add, for the record, that everyone I meet thinks I am crazy for feeding my animals raw food. however, the way they usually find out I feed raw is by asking, "your d*g looks so healthy! I've never seen such a shiny coat! what do you feed her?" so, who is crazy here? I even convinced the manager of the local petco (NCI) to give her prize-winning b*xers raw wings as treats. of course, she saw the h*ll we went through trying to improve a skin condition until we switched over....and she knows I feed the cats raw.

all the best,
 
Sue Miller

Hi, All

I read someone's question about letting Gracie eat only canned tuna (the type produced for human consumption, NOT tuna flavored cat food!).  It  is a HUGE NO-NO!!!  When my late crf-kitty, Sammie, stopped wanting to eat in Dec. of 1998, the only stuff I could get down her was either canned tuna or canned mackrel.  In early January, she started exhibiting signs of ataxia
(walking like she was drunk), and even though she was on potassim supplements, she was having back-end weakness.  We were at the vet's office 2-3 times a week for the 3 weeks before I had her put to sleep.  Rhonda wasn't sure what was causing the problem, she thought it might be neurological in origin as she had classical symptoms of a neurological disorder or even a stroke.  Sam had high bp as a complication of crf, and was on Norvasc to control it, but we thought maybe it had spiked. She gave her vit B shots, as a supportive measure, which, I found out later, was what she needed, but she needed huge doses and didn't get them. When Sam progressed to the point that her front end was collapsing when she tried to walk, I decided to let her go and had Rhonda come to the house and put her to sleep.

Just a few short weeks later, "Cat Fancy" had an article dealing with what cats should and shouldn't eat.  When fed only canned tuna and/or mackrel, cats develope severe B vitamin deficiencies and the symptoms mimic neurological problems.  I almost died when I read that.  If only I'd known, I'd have had Sam for so much longer...her kidney disease was only in it's
early stages. :0(  She needed MAJOR doses of vit. B to reverse the problem but we didn't know what the problem was.  Rhonda got a copy of the article and now knows some more questions to ask owners when cats come to her with this sort of problem.

Canned tuna and mackrel are ok in small amounts as a treat, but PLEASE don't feed it as their only source of nutrition.  If you must do so, please talk to your vet about strong vit. B supplements for you baby. I lost my baby due to my ignorance. Please don't make the mistake I made.  If anyone is interested in reading the article, it was in one of first 3 or four issues of "Cat Fancy" in 1999.

God bless,

Kathy

I remember someone saying that fish is a no-no for all but Japanese cats. Lucky me I have two of those!

Anyways, if you do have to give fish as an enticer, first, never give cat food because its got so much additives and crap in it.  Second, never give canned human fish because its got so much additives and crap in it.  Caseine specifically.

Buy a chunk at the market and give it to your cat.  That's the best way.  If the eyes on the fish are clear, or if it's sashimi-grade or still swiming, give it to them raw.

Go with white fishes.  Sea bass and Yellowtail are good choices.

I still have to give a little fish to Onyx as a treat when I give it to Kumo, but only like a tiny bit.  Kumo can have more.

I am quite sure that canned fish contributed to my cat Smokey's death. That and a list of other things I knew nothing about before coming to this list!

By the way, Onyx is getting lots of compliments on how handsome he is now. The raw thing has really changed his life.

Judith and Onyx and Kumo and Momo

The only consideration with using clams as a food source for kitties in general is that, like many other members of the mollusk family, they are sea-filterers.  That allows them to absorb nutrients from the water (and in that sense are high in trace elements and nutrition), but also could contain chemicals and pollutants from the water.  If mollusks are found in polluted water, they can be toxic - something to keep in mind if you're considering adding them into the diet.

Of course, the same could be said of a lot of canned fishies - we really don't know how and from where they arrived in that can, so don't know if they came from polluted waters.

Leah

Clams and other shell fish are high in iodine and cats do not tolerate iodine well.

Laura S
Orlando, FL

I found this online.  It says B1, rather than B12.  I haven't seen the issue of Cat Fancy you mention.

http://www.healthypet.com/FAQ/mCare-18.html

The human variety of tuna fish contains an enzyme that destroys vitamin B1 (thiamine). Cats who regularly eat tuna can develop a vitamin B1 deficiency, which results in neurological symptoms like dilated eyes, loss of equilibrium, seizures and death if this vitamin is not replaced. The scientific name of this disease is polioencephlomalacia.

juliette

<<Shortly after I lost her, "Cat Fancy" had an article that talked about what you should and shouldn't feed your cat.  I almost died when I read that cats that eat canned tuna or mackrel for most or all of their diet get it B12 deficiencies and the symptoms look like neurological disorders.  If I had only known...I would have given Sam B12 to get her back to normal.
I'm still not sure what else I could have gotten her to eat instead of the fish, but at least I would have had time to try.  When I think that I lost my precious child over a vitamin deficiency, it just breaks my heart.  I showed the article to my vet and she's stored the info for future notice.>>

Juliette:

This is also related to a loss of taurine in the cat's system, which tuna does not provide.

Laura S

Actually Laura, Steatitis has very little to do with taurine. According to the Merck Vet Manual Steatitis is caused by " fish or fish
by-product in all or part of the diet,  fish oil may be the primary agent."

Typical laboratory finding is an elevated leukocyte count, with neutrophilia and sometimes eosinophilia.

Treatment is elimination of the offending food from the diet and administration of Vitamin E in the form of  a-tocopherol at least 30 mg. daily for cats.

Cheers! Marnie

Hi all -

<< Doesn't tuna causes anemia in cats?>>

No, not anemia. Feeding excessive amounts of tuna *can* cause steatitis, a "Vitamin E deficiency resulting in the deposition of a yellow- pigmented substance in the body fat." (From the Cornell Book of Cats)