Following are selected posts to the Holisticat (TM) Mailing List on the subject of the grains vs. grainless debate. There's a lot of information here, and the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utilize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!

Happy hunting :)

<28 Jul 1998 From: Judy <critterz Re: cooking grains>

SandyC7606@ wrote:
<<But I haven't  found a good recipe for the grain.  I think cornmeal or pollenta have  possibilities.  Last nite I cooked the cornmeal in beef broth but no luck.>>

Hi everyone,

I cook a kidney diet also (anyone here *not* know that ;)  I add the drippings from the cooked chicken to the grains cooking water.  If there isn't enough grease, I'll add some unsalted butter.  The taste test is if Sammy will lick the grains cooking pot clean, then I know I got a tastey batch of foodies.

Thanks Mimi for posting the protein study for crf!

Hi Sandy,

The biggest thing I noticed is that the cats like their food a whole lot more  now.  I tried several types of grains and none were really a hit.  Now, with  just meat and veggies, and occasional supplements, they love their food.  Bert  will eat bone-in chicken parts without grinding them, Jiglets just licks them and then ignores them. I'm still holding out hope for her though!  She's a very picky eater.

When I first switched the cats to a homemade diet, I was following Frazier's diet.  Years ago I had tried Pitcairn's and none of the cats would touch any of his recipes.  I know now, it must have been the large amount of grains that was unappealing to them.  So, when I went no grain, the cats were in pretty good shape already since they'd been eating raw for a long time.  I didn't expect to see much change.  There was some though - mostly in improved muscle tone.

A side note - when I took Jiglets to the vet earlier this year for a check-up and a rabies shot, the vet was amazed at how sparkling clean her ears were.  He commented on it a couple of times.  (Must be rare for them to see.) He was convinced I cleaned them.  I told him I just feed her correctly.  After she got her rabies shot, her ears got all sorts of brown gunk in them within the week. I wanted to take her back and show it to the receptionist who thinks I'm a kook for not wanting unnecessary shots since, in her words, "well, there's no way giving more shots will hurt.  Only if you give less."  Birdbrain.  Sorry for the rant...got sidetracked again.

Be well,
Nancy and the furkids

Randall, I *think* the feeling goes that the reason grains are unnecessary is because the cat can't use them properly. So if the cat can't use them, it doesn't matter *how* balanced the meal is, the cat can't access the nutrients in them, so omitting them doesn't make a difference. Those of you grainless feeders out there, correct me if I'm wrong. I still do feed grains, and I feed Pitcairn's recipes (but I do cut the grains way back). I feed them primarily because I think cats *can* use them in small amounts, along with veggies, seeds, and fruit (which they're pretty picky about). Because I tend to stick to one or two recipes, I try also to vary the stuff they get either as treats or with the meals. As for supplements, they don't get a whole lot in that department except extra vit C lately and garlic a couple times a week. I'm not in any hurry to go grainless, but I'm not ruling it out either.

Take care
Kathy and the cats, one of whom had far too much energy at 3 am

Organ meats have the B vitamins that are found in grains. So, I don't think about it as making up for the lack of grains, but reverting back to the source that grains were used to substitute for! Grains are not a natural food source for cats, but organs are. Grains in commercial foods are primarily used as a cheap protein source.

Peggy
Hester and Elleander

If you want to continue to feed grains, but are pressed for time, try using the baby food flaked grains.  All they require is soaking with hot water and you can add them to the meat and veggies.  They're sort of like instant mashed potatos and come in various grains individually and in mixes.

Be well,
Nancy and the furkids

About the grains - if you suspect an allergy or cats simply don't like them, IMHO, leave them out.  I see no reason to feed bran...if used for fiber, I prefer the grains from which they MAY absorb some nutients.  Just about all my vegetarian cookbooks refer to grains as carbs needed for energy and heat and recipes are combinations with other foods to furnish adequate protein.

Jacqueline

In a message dated 8/6/98 8:28:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Kimcof@ writes:
<< I came in late on this thread but I can't imagine that NO grains is  healthy for a cat even if they are carnivores. >>

Where in the wild would they get grains?  Frazier says look at a mouse - even what grain they eat, there would hardly be any left by the time the cat got them.  And as we discussed earlier, those who observe such things note that the stomach is usually not eaten, and that's where the grains would be. Also, part of the discussion was that, being obligate carnivores (not like people and dogs) the nutrients (vitamins, minerals, protein) in the grains/veggies would be hard for the cats body to extract.

I know one of my cats is crazy about barley grass, and I have seen them try to munch on plants for greens, so I feel good about a certain amount of veggies. And besides, I think Frazier and Pitcairn and their 60/20/20 ratio are off base.  Do you really think only 60% of the mouse is meat?  The other 40% would be mostly bone, fur, etc., but not grains/veggies.  This is one reason I didn't switch to raw years ago, because Pitcairn was the only resource I had and I didn't want to go that far.

The recipe I have been following is Celeste Yarnall's.  She says 80% meat 20% grains and veggies.  They have done incredibly well on it, but I was looking for a way to drop some weight on my 2 chubby bunnies, and it was suggested I try grainless.

After less than a week, however, I am less than impressed with grainless. Could those of you who feed this regularly give some input?  I appear to have a constipation problem, as there hasn't been enough poop in the box to account for one cat, never mind 3.  Should I have switched over more slowly?  I'll have to add some psyllium tomorrow and see if I can get some bowels moving . .

Lee

<<No grains is another thing. I'm currently grainless, but not vehemently so. ;)>>

Ah, Peggy!  You're kidding! You're pretty vehement on the no grains thing! Almost as much as the raw food thing ;>)  You'll be happy to know Giddy had only 10% grains in his most recent ration.

<<I've looked at both sides and it does make sense to me that the natural prey of an African Wild Cat would have eaten wild grasses,
berries, seeds, and insects. Large amounts of processed grains would only be available to animals who lived among humans. Inherently
unnatural. If you feel grains need to be fed, the best thing to do would be to fed very few grains and feed ones that are as close to a wild grain as possible.>>

If we take the "natural" stance, so much of what we expect/do with our companion animals is decidedly unnatural.  Maybe grains like amaranth, millet, barley, etc. would be best in this scenario, then.

Jillian -- Its me again, Noreen.....I still can't find the article I had in mind about the corn but here are some websites you might want to read........  I'll keep looking.......

Moonpadler@ wrote:
<< Hi Noreen & thanks for your input......do you know where I can get more info  on corn digestibility in cats?   websites, particular books?>>

Corn Digestibility in Question: See:  http://www.felinefuture.com/library/nutrition/plants.html  states corn as indigestible

http://www.api4animals.org/petfood.htm states: "Dogs and cats can almost completely absorb carbohydrates from some grains, such as white rice. Up to 20% of other grains can escape digestion. The availability of nutrients for wheat, beans, and oats is poor. The nutrients in potatoes and corn are far less available than those in rice. Carbohydrate that escapes digestion is of little nutritional value due to bacteria in the colon that ferment carbohydrates ...Since cats are true carnivores -- they must eat meat to fulfill certain  physiological needs -- one may wonder why we are feeding a corn-based product to them. The answer is that corn is much cheaper than meat."

The next is a very interesting paper,  and it is hard to take things out of context....please read it and form your own opinions:
http://www.best.com/~sirlou/catnutrition.html  states Most dry foods, for example, use corn meal as a bulk filler, while canned foods often use gelatin.  Since these substances effectively pass right on through a cat, there is no harm in them, but you are paying for them, sometimes dearly..........

and in the same paper many cats like cereals.  Again, in moderation, cereals such as oatmeal, wheat farina, corn-meal mush, etc., are quite beneficial as providers of carbohydrates..

Noreen      >^,,^<

Hi Sandy and list,

<<Incidentally Jean, [psyllium] is what I'd recommend w/ Saski for his constipation.  Tell us what recipe u are using for the raw diet.  And
which veggies etc.  My cats never have either diarrhea or constipation on the raw diet so i don't think it is a natural consequence of feeding raw.  What sort of fiber does Saski get in his food? >>

Saski was getting 1/4 veg & grain to 3/4 meat but I've just upped it to 1/3 veg/grain & 2/3 meat to see if that will solve the constipation. But I'm not really happy with only 66% meat, wd like to see it higher.

The meat is raw ground chicken or turkey, including skin and all but the grosser heavy chunks of fat. I buy chicken hearts and occasionally chicken livers and add them to the meat, approx 20% organ.

I feed about half & half grain and veg. The vegs are usually cooked carrots or broccoli, and I sometimes add raw zucchini which they both seem to like, or just feed the raw zucchini on its own.

While I was away he got quick rolled oats or white rice, well cooked. I am now including oat groats, whole wheat kernels and whole grain oats, cooked for 30 mins and whirled in the food processor with the veg.

Monday I bought raw unsalted sunflower and pumpkin seeds and have added a tiny bit of finely ground seed meal to the veg/grain mix. BTW, Amber likes whole sunflower seeds :-)

I have recently been adding 1/2 tsp bran to his food, with additional water. His food is always a bit sloopy in consistency.  Also been giving him 1/2 tsp each bran & butter just recently. He doesn't really get any other oils except for 4 to 6 drops a day of salmon oil.

I had been feeding him one wing bone a day, but on Peggy's suggestion have cut that back to 3 times a week.

Last night his stool was a good consistency - yay! (Maybe it's the bones!)

I'd like to get his diet fine-tuned so that he doesn't need bran-and-butter or psyllium or any such "additions". How does this diet compare to what others feed?

<<U might consider adding ground flax seeds.>>

Bought some flax seed today. I think grinding that up is a great idea, fibre plus some laxative effect - flaxseed bread sure works for me <g>.

Thanks for the psyllium URL, too, Sandy.

--Jean, Saski (feeling more comfortable today, thank you) and Amber

On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:45:36 -0500 wordlady@ writes:
<<perhaps it depends on what their prey has been eating?) why not sunflower and flax seeds? If the seeds are partially digested, perhaps that helps the cat utilize the plant oils.>>

Jean, I add a lil flax seed oil as well as freshly ground seeds every day b/c the seeds contain lignans which u don't get w/ just the oil.  Plus the seeds provide fiber so I'm hedging my bets a bit.  Yesterday, I checked a book I have on supplements and it said sunflower seeds have about 88% fat (1/2 in monounsaturated and 1/2 in polyunsaturated oils).  And now I can't remember but I recently came across a reference to sunflower seeds being good for the kidneys so am thinking of adding some (unsalted of course) to Booey's food.

<<hear opinions on grain vs grainless, plant/seed matter, proportions  And the best substitute for mouse fur and bird feathers!>>

I think Nancy told us about her kitties leaving the stomach contents and fur and feathers uneaten, right Nancy?  And Kathy's kitty Annie does the same.  Since I doubt fur and feathers have much nutritive value, I don't worry about 'em much.  As far as the grains vs. grainless issue is concerned, I've been reading up on it for a yr and finally made the plunge about 4 months ago.  I haven't noticed any diff in the kids other than their poops went from being real small to where they're now even smaller than the Feline Pine pellets so much so that I have trouble finding them sometimes!  So what I gather is that even tho they weren't allergic to grain or having any bad effects from it, it wasn't being digested perhaps b/c nothing else in their diet change.

Actually I'm going to be lazy here and include an old post from Nancy b/c she said it so well.  Her post pretty much summarizes my view on feeding grains at this time.  Who knows, when we learn more, I could change my mind.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain rascals
____
Hi,

It's definitely the stomach.  All those dissections in Biology are finally useful.  LOL  But remember, this is only one cat.  Maybe others do eat it and not other parts.  And I don't feed the cats any grains.  Even if he did eat the stomach, the amount of grain would be tiny.  Mice eat other things like vegetation, besides grains, and then eat grains only if they are near a farm of other source of grains.  Seeds are rather plentiful for a good part of the year, but not what we would consider grains.  Oats, rice, wheat, etc.

Being ever curious, I have opened the stomachs a couple of times to see what's in there.  Looks really green most of the time, so I suspect it's a lot of grass or other green plant material.  Didn't see any grains, but I guess mousie could have chewed them really well....  I've always felt that grains were added to food recipes just because 1. we are used to seeing it there  2. it's cheap filler to extend the better ingredients and 3. since we as humans eat it, it's difficult for us to be comfortable in NOT feeding it - we feel like we're 'missing' something.  Just my $0.02.

Be well,
Nancy and the furkids

Hi,

On Sunday, November 01, 1998 2:14 AM, Sandy A wrote:
<<hear opinions on grain vs grainless, plant/seed matter, proportions And the best substitute for mouse fur and bird feathers! >>

<<I think Nancy told us about her kitties leaving the stomach contents and fur and feathers uneaten, right Nancy?>>

Yes, it was me - or rather, my kitty Bert.  :-)  Every night he brings in some  sort of critter to eat; mice, moles, bats, rabbits!, birds, etc.  He will eat  everythng but the stomach, so he is eating the fur too.  With the birds, he  will leave some feathers, but I think those are the ones that fell out during  the struggle, as there are never enough to cover a whole bird.

Be well,
Nancy and the furkids

hey all-

well, the semester is over now, and i can relax (and go buy chicken for the dumb cats and hack it all to pieces...)

i wrote
<<kymythy schultze has a new book out, 'the ultimate diet'>>
then Leah wrote:
<< I don't have that book, but from talking to a few other people (our Peggy amongst them), it's not a very appropriate book/diet for cats.>>

yeah, i remember now that peggy wasn't thrilled with it... but a couple other people were (on another list, but have cats) so maybe it's worth flipping thru if you see it at the book store... according to the site,  she's supposed to have all sorts of extra resources, tho, like "Resources for Diet Ingredients, General Guidelines, New-Age Weirdos?,Species-Appropriate Food Sources of Nutrients, Your
Tribe, Conclusion, Shopping List, Sample Monthly Menu, Approximate Amounts, MenuSheets, Food Diaries, and The Holistic Animal Yellow Pages."

might be a good second book, then...

me:
<<i model my cats' diet after the feline future recipe,>>
leah:
<<I noticed that Kathy B. also uses this recipe.  What do both of you like so  well about it?>>

simplicity, grainless and it appeals to my intuitive sense of what a cat would eat in the wild. that said, i haven't started using glandulars, and don't steam the veggies -- i just whack 'em up as soon as they thaw, and serve like that... my cats LOVE their veggies, tho, so i'm lucky. i think i will be switching to fresh organic veggies once i get my financial aid checks, tho...

me:
<<HATE his recipes!! i like his medical stuff, but he uses way too much grain, IMHO.>>

leah:
<< Geez, Vick why don't you say this a few more times!>>

okay -- i HATE his recipes!! i like his medical stuff, but he uses way too much grain, IMHO.i HATE his recipes!! i like his medical stuff, but he uses way too much grain, IMHO. i HATE his recipes!! i like his medical stuff, but he uses way too much grain, IMHO.

you'll note, i did not identify grains as food of the antichrist in this particular post, i just said the pit-man uses too much grain, IMHO. for instance -- his poultry delight recipe has MORE grain than it has meat -- no way is that species-appropriate. i know my cats aren't cookin millet the moment i leave the house -- they're too busy looking for the plastic bags the meat thaws in, or dragging the thawing bags of meat around the house when i forget and leave them out.....

here are some quotes from veterinary texts regarding grains (courtesy of tiffani beckman):

"Some question exists regarding the need of dogs and cats for dietary carbohydrate." - Small Animal Clinical Nutrition III (1990), published by Mark Morris Assoc.

"There is no known minimum dietary carbohydrate requirement for either the dog or cat. Based on investigations in the dog and with other species it is likely that dogs and cats can be maintained without carbohydrates if the diet supplies enough fat or protein from which the metabolic requirement for glucose is derived." - The Waltham Book of Dog & Cat Nutrition (1988), edited by Dr. A. T. B. Edney

"Provided the diet contains sufficient glucose precursors (amino acids and glycerol), the glucogenic capacity of the liver and kidneys is usually sufficient to meet the metabolic need of growing animals for glucose without the inclusion of carbohydrate in the diet." - Nutrient Requirements of Dogs (1985), published by the National Research Council

i also have another post from pat mckay about her choice to go grainless in her recipes, if anyone is interested

Vick and company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Hi guys!

I've been feeding raw since 1993 to my cats, I breed and show American Shorthairs and have weaned three litters on raw.

I started with Dr. Jeffrey Levy's diet (see http://www.blakkatz.com/diet.htm) It's a wonderful diet, but pretty complicated. Maybe Dr. Levy has stream-lined it. Who knows. I don't use it anymore.

I agree that Pitcairn and Frazier have too much grain in their diets, but keep in mind when the books were written. McKay wrote hers, then came out with a new one pretty quickly removing grains. Feline Future is a fine diet, but a bit hard core. I'm not sure what the owners of the site are trying to accomplish. It isn't updated much. They sell their food, but only in Canada. I'm not sure how long they've been feeding raw either.

Cats and dogs probably do not need carbohydrates in the form that we are feeding them (i.e., brown rice, millet, corn, oats, etc.). Keep in mind Pottenger's cats. He did his research for over 10 years with over 900 cats and these cats (on the optimum diet) were fed only raw meat scraps, raw milk and cod liver oil. No vegetables (unless the cats grazed on grass, which they probably did as they were in outside pens) or grains. The cats on the optimum diet survived and thrived.

Don't try to compare what we need to what cats need. Different creatures! Grains were introduced by pet food manufacturers as fillers. If we didn't know about grain in commercial cat food, we probably wouldn't be thinking much about carbohydrates for our cats. I think some people are still trying to recreate what's in the can, but in a raw diet. Think mouse.

Let's look at a mouse. It contains muscle meat, organ meat, bone, water. We can recreate that without too much trouble. What gets difficult is what's in the stomach and the fur, whiskers and tail. Mice, in their wild state, do not generally eat the above grains, at least they didn't when cats were in their true wild state themselves. They ate seeds and grasses. Modern day mice at farms are probably eating horse grain, etc., so that puts us back to square one. How to recreate the grains, seeds, grasses, etc. in a prey animal's stomach? You probably can't, anymore than you can make up for the fur, whiskers, etc. Note, mice have very small stomachs. Our cats  aren't  pulling down zebras here who would have a whole pot of grass matter in their stomachs. There can't even be a teaspoon of digested food in a mouse's stomach. They aren't very big creatures.

Keep in mind, you are talking to someone who used to make up pots and pots of grain and veggie mixtures for her cats. I'm surprised my food processor is still running with the amount of sticky grain I've but through it. I have three bags of Sojourner Farms Cat Cereal still sitting in my pantry. Guess it will become mouse food.

I recently purchased The Ultimate Diet. I've known Kymythy for some time now and I think she's done a lot of work researching the book.

Her diet consists of meat, bone, raw food-processed vegetables, a 50/50 mixture of kelp and alfalfa powder, Vitamin C, flax oil and cod liver oil. Yes. She talks about raw meaty bones and probably more bone than our cats will consume, more bone than would be in a mouse. So I cheat. I get bone in as much as I can (wings, necks, breast bones), and when I can't, use crushed egg shells for calcium (I run the eggs right through the processor with the veggies, shells and all [I use organic eggs]). Kymythy breeds Newfs. They can swallow a cat whole for God's sakes, forget chicken wings!!

Otherwise, the diet makes a lot of sense. Kelp and alfalfa combined have just about every vitamin in them known to man (this is where you get the fur, whiskers, stomach content [not to mention the dirt the mouse has been rolling in]); Vitamin C is for the modern day animal with all it's stress and exposure to toxins, etc. Flax oil is Omega 3 fatty acids. Cod Liver Oil is Vitamins A and D. Raw grated veggies is for the contents of the prey animal's stomach and any grasses or herbs the cat may eat on it's own.

I think that pretty much makes your mouse right there. You just need to scale down a bit from her book to feed cats. Kymythy does have two cats whom she feeds right along with her Newfs.

To help boost the health of my females when they are pregnant and nursing, I supplement them with a mouse a day. I breed the mice and feed them only organic grains. Mice aren't too fond of brown rice!! Their drinking water is spiked with Vitamin C. If I had the means to do so, I'd probably feed all my cats mice, but I don't have the facilities for that amount of breeding.

So, that's what I feed. Note, I maintain a web site based on holistic cat health at http://www.blakkatz.com.
Michelle

This is directly from the mouth of Pat McKay, author.

Hi, Ruth and All, I believe cats & dogs should be fed 75% meat and 25% vegetables. The following article is one of the reasons I no longer feed grains. The following is a reprint from HEALTHY PETS-NATURALLY by Russell Swift, DVM: To Feed or Not To Feed...Grains.

At the recent American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association Conference, I discovered that I am not the only one questioning the use of grains in commercial and home-prepared pet foods. Grains, such as oats, wheat, rice, barley, etc, are composed mostly of complex carbohydrates. They also contain some protein, fiber, B-vitamins and trace minerals. However, they are NOT part of the natural diet of wild dogs and cats. In the true natural setting, grains hardly exist at all. Wild grains are much smaller than our hybridized domestic varieties. This means that even a mouse or other prey animal is not going to find much of its nutrition from grains. Therefore, the argument that "dogs and cats eat animals that have grains in their digestive tracts" doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Prey animals that live near farms or other "civilized" areas are likely to have access to grains. This is not a truly wild diet.

What other clues do we have that grains are not necessary for carnivores?

1) Dogs and cats do not have dietary requirements for complex carbohydrates.
2) Grains must be cooked or sprouted and thoroughly chewed to be digested. Carnivores do not chew much at all.
3)  The other nutrients in grains are readily available from other dietary ingredients. For example, B-vitamins are found in organ meats and trace minerals come from bones and vegetables. (Unfortunately, modern farming has stripped many trace minerals from produce and supplementation is usually best.)

What are the negative effects? I believe that carnivores cannot maintain long term production of the quantity of amylase enzyme necessary to properly digest and utilize the carbohydrates. In addition, the proteins in grains are less digestive than animal proteins. As a result, the immune system becomes irritated and weakened by the invasion of foreign, non-nutritive protein and carbohydrate particles. Allergies and other chronic immune problems may develop. The pet's pancreas will do its best to keep up with the demand for amylase. What does this pancreatic stress do over a long time? I don't know, but it cannot be good. I suspect that dental calculus may be another problem promoted by grain consumption.

End of article by Russell Swift, DVM.

Pat McKay
web site:  http://home1.gte.net/patmckay/index.html

----------------------
Vick and company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Dawn Marie wrote:
<<On cats eating bread:  Don't cats naturally get grains from eating the viscera of mice that ate the grain in the first place?  That explains the  cats' alliance with humans in Egypt.  >>

Presumably the mice in Egypt did have grain in their bellies.  An unscientific survey of some listmembers a while ago revealed that a lot
of cats we know (1st or 2nd hand) don't eat the tummies at all.  So that blows the grain theory.  Course it also makes one wonder how much if any, veggies a kitty needs in his/her diet.

As to the alliance w/ humans, the fact that cats don't eat grain is the very basis for the Egyptians love affair w/ kitties.  Here's a neat
animal that can kill the scourge of the Egyptians - mice - while not eating the grain that needs protecting.  What could be a more ideal
relationship.

<<Is a grainless diet better?  My cat's lean, but she has big, soft tools from all the moisture and grain/vegetable>>

I fed raw a whole yr w/ about 2-5% grain in their diet before I swicthed to grainless.  None of mine have allergies to grain.  True they don't like the taste of grain so they are probably happier w/ their food now.

The food is denser now b/c I cut out the grain.  I haven't noticed any big difference except for the fact that their poops which were tiny to begin w/, are practically miniscule now.  Might be my imagination but they do look a bit more muscular.

I have read (can't remember where) and been told by vets (allo, incidentally) that cats' poops should be small and hard(ish) - should
look like lil tootsie rolls.  if the poops are real small, it means kitty is absorbing the nutrients in the food and there is very lil indigestible stuff that is being expelled by the body.  Makes sense to me.  First thing I noticed when I switched to raw was the poops stopped stinking. we're talking 0 smell, and the poop size went down big time even compared to when I cooked the meat.

<< On cats eating eggshells:  Don't cats naturally raid nests occasionally to eat the eggs?  Wouldn't there be some nutritional value in the shells?>>

i do believe that to the case.  Hence I add the entire egg to their food each time - shell and all.  It's ground up into teeny pieces so they
can't even tell it is in there.

<< Can someone make calcium simple?  What is the right calcium supplement to a  raw diet?  What is so important about phosphorous?  >>

At it's most basic level, calcium is good for the bones, and Phos for the muscles (potassium too).  U want a balance like Judy said.  If there is too much Phos (meat is very hi in Phos, esp muscle meat), then the body will start leaching calcium from the bones.  hence humans who eat a lot of meat can be at risk of osteoporosis.  So u want a balance like it would exist in nature.

<< Wysong literature puts it:  "Animals survived 267 miles of history to the  one inch that they have been domesticated with us."  [very loosely quoted]>>

Exactly.  Cats are one of the only animals out there that do not adapt to their environment.  Over the yrs cats have been around, their bodies have not changed one iota.  Same teeth, same need for protein to come from meat sources..nothing has changed in their physiology.  And we see that hunting instinct every time we bring out the Feline Flyer, right?  Truly, as the saying goes - God/Higer Power created the house cat so man could caress the tiger, I believe.

<<I am new at this nutrition concern, but I am appalled at what's in  commercial cat foods, and that for example, they lacked taurine for so long.>>

Interestingly, the Iams site had a blurb on it sometime back where it said that even now, people who feed commercial wet food should
supplement w/ taurine.  I just went to the site and can't find that article. But I know I posted about it a yr ago so will go find it in my
folders if anyone is interested.

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong w/ table scraps.  Dunno how they got a bad rap.  When I was a kid, people's pets were fed table scraps and I didn't see them dying of kidney failure at age 4 like we do now!  As long as it's just a small % of their diet and the rest is balanced, I doubt it will hurt a kitty.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats who always get bites of steak from their daddy.