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<22 Jul 1998 From: Marilyn Re: [HOL] Meat Grinders>

Lee, I have a VitaMix.  This machine will grind wheat into flour.  Just a couple of flicks on the switch, and meat is ground.  You can do the bones finer if you want.  It is expensive, but it does so very much and it is a self-cleaner to all of you who have to clean your grinders.  No, I don't work for them nor do I get anything for recommending this product.  I think they have a web site.  Maybe it is: http://www.vitamix.com or something like that.  If that doesn't work, let me know and I will look it up for you.
Marilyn
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Yes, Lee, that is the VitaMix.  It will turn meat into chunks, finer chunks, ground meat or all the way to liquid.  I know it doesn't seem possible, but it does.  As far as the person who said the bones were sharp, it will turn bones to dust. They must be processed long enough.  Another thing, the blades are not sharp.  It uses a forward and backward spin to the blades--you control it--to do the meat and bones.  It is also done in a matter of seconds.
Marilyn
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Alright!! Here it goes again!! I have used my VitaMix for years and years!!! I have thirteen rescues right now--Four of which I am keeping. These cats and kittens have all been fed raw meat--Some like chunks, some like mini chunks and others like ground.  I fix it all in seconds in my VitaMix and have done this for years.  I fix up batches at a time and freeze.  I live over thirty miles from stores, so I have to buy bulk. I take it home and process it in the larger size that the cats like.  When I feed, I process to the medium size and the rest to the ground size.  It only takes seconds, and the VitaMix will clean itself.  I use hot water and dish detergent and flip the switch up and down rapidly for a few times and rinse.  Yes, it is expensive, but it also makes the best juice, as no part of the fruit is not juiced--You can even juice the seeds and rind if you want to.
Marilyn

I find it hard to think of using it for meat grinding, though.  I bought it for me, not the critters, and use it once or twice a day for making fruit smoothies  and healthy desserts.  Somehow, no matter how self-cleaning it is, it seems too gross to use it for both though.

Yes, cleanup is a breeze with these things, you just fill them part way with hot water and turn them on for a few seconds.  I haven't tried cooking with  mine (I have no recipes), but the friction supposed to heat a homemade soup up sufficiently to cook with more prolonged use than making just a smoothie, for example, provided you start with the water already hot.  Mine definitely does not freeze, though, and I'd like to know how on earth they are supposed to do that, since friction raises, rather than lowers, a temperature.  I've seen this claim in the advertisements, but don't believe it.  I make frozen yogurt in mine (by mixing yogurt with frozen fruit), but have to put it in the freezer to have it actually freeze.  It's ice cold but a sloppy consistency when i get done blending it.

A Vitamix is essentially a souped up, super-high-power (1 or 2 hp.) blender.  One major point which differentiates it from a regular blender is that the container is shaped square, rather than round.  This is a big selling point they make.  A blender is supposed to just push the pureed food substances around in circles. While the Vitamix blades, in propelling the food at super-high speed against the square-shaped container walls, is supposed to set up a cell-shattering ricochet action that in turn breaks down the food far more than a blender and makes the nutrients more bio-available.  Or so they say, at least.  Then if you get the deluxe version, there are 2 separate containers for wet foods and dry (grains), but the motorized base is the same.

Here is a good web discussion page for those contemplating a Vitamix in their future (or else getting more creative use out of the one they have).  It is run by someone named Robynn, who's an online Vitamix distributor.

http://www.paradise-web.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=brighter
  -- Susan S.

Leah

Hi Terri,

You asked Peggy about any problems w/ feeding only meat.  She and I have  a pretty similar philosophy so I'll jump in since she can't answer till the morn.

We both grind the entire animal, usually a chicken, using either a manual or electric grinder.  This way the cats don't simply eat the meat, but the bones too.  I don't feel comfortable w/ bonemeal so I like to grind bones instead.  I figure that's about as close to nature as I'm going to get.

Peggy also gives her cats whole quail and cornish game hens.  Mine will sometimes eat the game hens whole but they have to be really really hungry.  So, I end up grinding those too, and give them chicken necks and wings to chew on to clean the tartar off their teeth.

I used to add a few supplements (vit c, kelp, yeast etc.) but lately I've been cutting back, big time.  I only add fish oil every once in a while. I used to add Pitcairn's Healthy Powder (never did care for Frazier's Vita-Mix) but don't any more b/c I suspect cats cannot utilize much that isn't animal-based/derived.

I don't know for sure but I think it is the Iams website that says cats can't use Niacin, and we know they can't use Beta Carotene so I worry about either: a) causing extra stress on their system by giving them stuff they have to work hard(er) to use, or b) at best, wasting all the supplements they get.  I'm guessing it's the former b/c everything is excreted by the liver and/or kidneys so why make them work harder?

I use organic veggies, meats, and grains so I figure other than something to make up for the depleted soil from whence the grains, veggies, and indirectly the meat come, my cats ideally shouldn't need much supplementation.  I don't have the gumption to feed mice but do think that would be ideal. Then I'd have even less qualms about not adding much to my cats' diet.  I feel all their needs e.g. water, vitamins, etc. should come from their food so that nothing needs to be added.

Sandy

Sandy,

I am lucky in that my entire crew will eat chicken necks "as is" but I found for the kitten when he was too little to manage the big (to him) bones that smashing them with a meat tenderizer till they went all "floppy" worked. You might want to try this if you are going to broil the necks a little before offering them, although they will still be a little "sharp" I would imagine - only way to avoid that totally and still feed the whole thing is to grind it.

When I was very new to raw feeding that is what I did with all my poultry bones- ran them through our kitchenaid grinder attachment and they came out like slightly "gristly" ground meat - no sharp bits at ALL and I would imagine you could gently pan brown that to interest the more "finicky" kids.

My one Great Dane boy used to hate the consistency of raw liver - only way he would eat his liver was if it was very lightly pan browned - the inside was totally raw it was just heated enough to change the color of the outside but I think the raw was too "slippery" feeling on his tongue<G>.

Good luck and keep trying!
Tracey

How finely do egg shells have to be ground so there isn't a danger to the cat's insides?  I'm following Pitcairn's instructions, I grind them in a mini- chopper/grinder.  They come out the consistency somewhere between regular salt and kosher salt.  Probably closer to the consistency of regular salt but not as fine as talcum powder.  What do you all think, is this ground up enough?

Sandy

<<Can anyone suggest a good meat grinder for grinding chicken and bones?  I have been using my KitchenAid with grinder attachment, but the bones get caught in the mechanism. Naturally, I would prefer an electric grinder, but I would be interested in any suggestions.>>

Kate, I posted about our new grinder around xmas time but if u didn't get it, lemme know and I'll send the info to u privately.  We are very happy w/ the VillaWare electric grinder.  It handles chicken wings and all the other bones in chicken really well.  Rabbits are a snap too.  The only thing we've had a problem w/ is turkey cuz the bones are just too large and thick.  John sez the VillaWare one is worth it so I guess we're keeping ours.  We paid $129.99 for it from Chef's Catalog.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats who are turning up their noses at non-organic chicken today, the little stinkers!

Hi all,
I'm really behind on personal email so if u don't mind, I'm posting this to the list b/c about 10 of u wanted more info on this grinder.  BTW,
neither I nor the person who originally sent me this info have any commercial interest in either the firm that makes the grinder or the
firm that sells it.

The phone # for Chef's Catalogue is 1-800-338-3232 The item# for the Italian-made VillaWare 1.9 amp, 200 watts meat grinder
is 7815 and the price when I ordered it in mid-Dec was $129.99. They also have a web site u can check out http://www.chefscatalog.com When I ordered it, they had close to 150 of them in stock.

In addition, a very kind woman from another list told me to give them this code CF3023 which when they enter into their computer comes out to free S&H for all orders over $50.  Now I was told this was a special during Xmas but hey, never hurts to ask.  So I got mine for a total of $129.99 b/c no sales tax either since they are located outside of CA.

Kate asked if chicken was a problem as regards the small chute, and I checked w/ the kitty chef John.  He sez as long as u use a sharp knife and cut along the major bones, no need to cut 'em into small chunks or anything cuz chicken bones tend to be so much smaller than turkey ones. It took us less than an hr between the 2 of us to grind 2 4lb chickens (in their entirety) and 2 lbs of veggies. And clean-up is a breeze.  John loves this grinder a lot; it was an Xmas present from his cat daughters (like he wants any other kind!) <g>

Hope that answers any questions anyone might have.  If not, lemme know, ok?

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

The VitaMix will pulverize bones into powder!!!  It will grind grains into flour!!!  It will make meat coarse to pulverized!!  It will make soft serve ice cream!!!  It will turn vegetables into hot soup!!!  And, of course, it will do anything in between.  It does this in seconds.  The blades are not sharp.  Some water and a dot of soap, and it cleans itself.  I don't sell them, I just love mine!!!  Mine is the stainless steel model, and I have the professional model, that is seven or eight years old or older.  It is also the best juicer because none, I repeat, none of the fruit is thrown out.  You just take the died part off the skin of an orange and turn it into juice.  You just put in carrots and
make juice.  No seeds or pulp is cast off.  Direction of the blades is instantaneous.  Just as fast as you can flip the switch, or it can be run in one direction.

Marilyn

Sharon wrote:
<<Now I want to start grinding my own.  I am planning on getting a vitamix (as soon as I get around to ordering it).  I know that this will chunk the meat for me but will it grind the bones?>>

Sharon, the VitaMix is really expensive - $400+ and since I already have a juicer and just about every other gadget known to (wo)man, I figured I didn't need something that would do what the other gadgets already do.   What I wanted was something that definitely ground the bones so I'm quite happy w/ the VillaWare grinder.  It cost me $129 and I just feed the meat w/ the bones still attached, right into the chute.  i put the eggs and supplements in there too so they get mixed in w/ the meat and veggies.

Took us 25 minutes to grind 8 lbs of meat and 1.5 lbs of veggies the other day, and clean-up took 15 mins.  So it was well worth it.  Best
thing for me is peace of mind - not having to worry about how much Cal and Phos etc. cuz that used to drive me batty when I fed cooked meat.  No going back for us.

Moonpadler@ wrote:
<< birds you get all those yummy organs.  BTW, I ground the meat up, but left the  organs whole, & just tried to divvy them up sort of equally amongst the meals.>>

Jillian, my cats won't eat organ meat if I offer it by itself so I just grind 'em along w/ the muscle meat and bones.  That way I don't have to worry about what day to feed them organ meat and how much.  I don't think the whole chickens I get here have the brain (that would explain little Pigpen <g>..just kidding!) but they have the liver, heart, gizzard, kidney, and neck.  So I'm still missing spleen, stomach, lung, and other "offal".  I dunno how much nutritional value it has - probably not much but..

So, I too am thinking about getting some extra liver, hearts etc. and adding them in w/ the chicken.  Last time I had John grind just the
organs and I was amazed at what a tiny % it is compared to the muscle meat!  Didn't look even close to 15% to me so I will get more organs and bring the % up to close to 15-20.

<< Another thought....has anyone ever tried feeding mice?   What a concept huh?>>

I looked into it locally and on the internet.  It ain't cheap.  Sometime ago we estimated how many mice a day and how much it would cost.  Anyone still have that info?  I'll dig it up otherwise.  Seemed kinda steep based on the prices I was quoted here in SoCal. And I couldn't bring myself to grind mice:(  John said he'd have no qualms but..

Sandy the squeamish, owned and operated by the mountain cats who love meeces to pieces

<<Sandy, do you grind the veggies raw or cooked? And do you put in a  whole bunch of different ones each time, or just one or two and vary them  from  grind to grind?>>

Raw only cuz they have enzymes and don't lose any vitamins etc. this way. I just use whatever's on hand.  Fortunately here in Souther California, everything's in season all yr round so I can get any veggie (organic) I want at my local produce stand.  I try to rotate as much as possible the following - zucchini, carrots, green beans, peas, alfalfa sprouts, celery, broccoli sprouts and less often I use spinach, brocoli, cauliflower, and red/green/yellow peppers.  The kids hate veggies so I have to disguise it really well in the meat.

We also play "hunt for chunks' every meal.  I cut up turkey and chicken breasts into chunks and mix it in their ground meat.  They get so excited when they find a chunk.  Will start growling and take it into the corner to chew on..real cute to see exotic persians do this!  They seem as far removed from their big wild cat cousins as can be so this is real neat - that carnivore instinct is right there under the surface even in lil bitty domestic cats.

Sandy, owned and operated by the tiny mountain lions

<<<Will a food processer work---probably not for the bones, huh?>>>

Sandy opined:
<<No:(  I even tried a Krups that looked like it might do the trick.  Cost me $120 but when I brought it home and tried it, it wimped out on me  after just a teeny bit of wing.  So u'll need either a Moulinex or a VillaWare.  Jean just bought a Mouli and several of us including myself have the latter.  Both handle bones really well.>>

For people who have a Kitchen Aid Mixer, there is a meat-grinder attachment that works fine for bones.

Kate

When I began switching to BARF I used to grind my chicken necks and rib cages in my kitchenaid - it did an OK job, but would get pretty hot and couldn't handle anything bigger than wings - no turkey necks and no chicken thighs without major heating and weird noises- when I posted to the Wellpet list about this someone wrote me and told me they had cracked their entire grinder casing (expensive :-(  ) trying to grind chickens in it - so I would caution against grinding anything other than very soft parts in the kitchenaid - there are probably better products out there for the job.

Tracey

Hi all --

<<I just recently joined the list and have been reading with interest>>

Welcome Tamar :)

<<What type of equipment would someone need to start with?  I've heard  mention grinding meat and bones, etc.>>

I use (well, my boyfriend does the hard part) a hand grinder. I actually borrowed it from his dad, but found it online at http://www.appliances.com/26505.html (I have item #265-08) I asked Dave if he thought it was hard to grind and he said not really, and he thinks I could do it myself, so I imagine you could too :) We buy 2 chickens and it lasts 2 cats about 2 weeks. I add a little cooked veggie, some Vitamin C and about 1000mgs of taurine to the whole thing, portion a days' worth of food into a ziploc and freeze.

<<What book(s), websites, companies with catalogs would you recommend  for the complete neophyte who never entertained the idea of raw feeding until joining this list? >>

The books I love are weak on nutrition.... I have heard that Pat McKay's book (Reigning Cats and Dogs) and Kymythy Schultzes' book (The Ultimate Diet) are both very simple, user friendly books for raw diet newbies.

I know of several sites that have a raw diet posted:
http://www.felinefuture.com/library/nutrition/stdrecipe.html
http://www.blakkatz.com/mydiet.htm
http://www.fatpet.com/elvessa/natural.htm#Recipe

But what you'll likely find is they vary, and you'll want more info about ingredients, supplements and logic applied than one site can give you. Take the time and compare the info, buy a couple books and make an informed decision on what's right for your cats. I don't feed grains, but lots of people do. Some won't feed bones, others won't feed some obscure veggie for some reason, or will for another... Read and decide for yourself :)

<< Is there a Holistic Cat website with a list of FAQs that would get a  newbie started?>>

Not as of yet, but there should be, shouldn't there?

<<How much time does it take per day/week to prepare kitty's meal and does it have to be prepared fresh daily or can it be made in batches  and frozen?>>

I spend about an hour doing all the grinding and whatnot on food prep day- including clean up. Meal time takes me longer than I'd like, because I'm still catering to Max and Jez and everyone needs to eat in different rooms and blah, blah, blah, but it shouldn't really take more than a few minutes if you portion stuff and freeze it that way....

<<And lastly, is this something that even the somewhat squeamish can handle?  I suppose it gets easier with time.>>

Hmmm... a few years back, I use to only buy boneless skinless meats because I couldn't deal with handling raw meat, ate my steaks well done, and wouldn't eat chicken unless my parents prepared it for fear of getting salmonella from someone who wasn't as militant about doneness as they are. Now I chop up whole chickens, dissect the organs before they go into the mix, and use my fingers to rip apart chicken frames and skin. I even break poultry necks in my hands cuz it's easier than cutting them. I also eat my steaks mid rare and don't sweat the occasional pink spot in my chicken :) You will get used to it- maybe
even find it interesting to look at all the stuff, see the striations in the muscle, the chambers in the heart....

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Hi all

<< what kind of equipment would do this that would be affordable for someone on a limited budget (and>>

Tamar, the most complicated piece of machinery I have is my food processer, which I use for veggies. What I do is throw in the veggies, add the eggs, then the supplements (bone meal, etc). I dump it all into a big bowl, add the meat and mix it with my hands. Yes, really truly, and I used to *never* handle raw meat. I'd dearly love to have a grinder but my budget is really tight too, so that's out for now. If you don't have a food processer, you could probably even use a grater for the veggies (though that's a lot of work by hand), or a blender if you have one.

<<What book(s), websites, companies with catalogs would you recommend for the complete neophyte who never entertained the idea of raw feeding until joining this list? Is there a Holistic Cat website with a list of FAQs that would get a newbie started?>>

As with Vick, my fave books don't have recipes. The best book for the beginner (my opinion) would be Diane Stein's _Natural Remedy Book for Dogs and Cats_. It's a bit preachy in parts, but definitely informative. As for recipes, the feline future foundation's recipe is the one I currently feed. If you go to their site you'll see a pretty simple straightforward recipe -- it's recently been updated, and I'm still feeding the old version, which I can pass on to you if you like.

<<How much time does it take per day/week to prepare kitty's meal and does it have to be prepared fresh daily or can it be made in batches and frozen?>>

I double the feline future recipe, and it usually lasts about two weeks. The prep time depends on whether I'm having fun :) If I'm enjoying myself and being creative I can stretch it out for a couple of hours. Usually it only takes an hour or less. It takes more time in the beginning, till you find your groove and get a routine. I freeze in little cream cheese or sour cream containers, which is enough for about a day or so of food, and thaw as I need it. Someone noted not to add supplements before freezing, but I just add everything at the same time so I don't have to do anything but take it out of the container when I feed the cats. I get lazy and sometimes even that's a chore :)

Your cat has cancer, right? There are those who would caution you to either treat the meat with GSE as we were discussing earlier, or to lightly cook the meat before you feed Pilar because of the compromised immune system which may not be as adept at handling raw meat. I don't cook for Kashmir and did only briefly even when she had cancer, but it's a judgement call. Since I don't cook for the cats I can't really give you precise instructions, but I'd *think* you could lightly cook the meat, cool it down a little, then add all the veggies and supplements and freeze as usual.

<<And lastly, is this something that even the somewhat squeamish can handle?  I suppose it gets easier with time.>>

It really does get easier. I'm completely fanatical about cleaning up both before and after, and more so now even than I used to be. But the actual handling of the meat gets a lot easier. Before our raw adventures you wouldn't catch me handling raw meat with my hands *ever*. No how, no way. Now, as I said with fanatical cleaning after, it's no big deal. I soak all the prep dishes immediately after using them, and then when I've got the food made and put away I rinse the dishes and wash them properly.

I hope this helps some. Read, read, read all you can and do your research, and it really will get easier when you feel more confident :)

Take care, Kathy and the cats

Linda,

I do rescue, so my total of cats gets up there. I currently have 13 permanent residents. If you're worried about cost, it's about the same to feed raw as to feed canned.  I make my batches 5 lbs at a time, and buy chicken necks, when I can find them, in bulk.  I'm a vegetarian, so I buy ground meat at the grocery store (not the best, but has to be better than the canned), so I don't have to do any butchering.  The necks aren't so bad, and I grind them in a hand grinder with a coarse blade.  I tried
giving them a vertebra at a time, but they would leave them out, and I'd find a huge ant trail heading to it in hours.  So I grind them, and the cats will eat them that way.

They only eat a few tablespoons at a time of the raw, and I warm it with warm water so there won't be so many upset tummies.

When I switched to a raw diet, I did it all at once, because they wouldn't eat the old stuff anymore.  You don't want to do this all at once.  Imagine 14 cats blowing their coats all at once.  It was worse than springtime.  But what came in is so soft and thick.  They don't shed as much, don't poop as much, the heavier ones seemed to slim down some, without adding veggies or grains.  Some of the more high-strung cats have calmed down. My older cats seem healthier.  It's even helped some with
the abused ones I have.  Nothing tames a feral like some good raw food--it's a great start with them.

I never did anything to prevent bacteria, except keeping the stuff refridgerated.  All my cats are rescues, and have eaten much worse from neighborhood garbage cans, so, I figured, if they've lived on *that* without getting sick, this food has at least been taken care of.

Make the change slowly, if they'll let you, so you don't find yourself vacuuming 6 times a day.  Best of luck with this.

Debbie

Hi Nancy,

katseven@ writes:
<< I grind the chickens myself. >>

<<Do you  grind the bones and add it to mix?>>

I grind the meat and bones together, but I can only do this with chicken.  Turkey bones are too big for my grinder.  For turkey I just buy the ten lb roll of ground meat from the butcher and add bonemeal--approx. 1 rounded tbsp to one lb. meat + veggies and kelp or barley cat, sometimes psyllium, and digestive enzymes.  (I think it's a good idea to add digestive enzymes to your kits' food if s/he's on commercial and/or making the transition to raw and/or has health problems.)  Good luck with the kits!  Keep us posted on their progress!

Susan