Following are selected posts to the Holisticat (TM) Mailing List on the subject of hawthorn. There's a lot of information here, and the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utilize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!
Happy hunting :)
<NKorman@.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:38:30 -0400
Hello Jean,
<<Thanks, Nancy. Did the vet mean not to give hawthorn and CoQ10 together?>>
The vet DID suggest I continue giving the hawthorn and the CoQ10 together.
So that's what I still do. BUT it was brought to my attention that
I may be confusing things here. The patient I'm talking about
is NOT a cat - it's my dog. And he does not have the same problems
as a cat with HCM. I'm using the herb as a cardiac and circulatory
tonic basically. And not at a very high dosage either.
Hi Dr. Wynn,
I may have created some confusion here -- the animal under care is not a cat with HCM, but a dog. I know I mentioned it a couple of times, but not in the most recent post. Puck originally had his heart checked out due to some problems he had post anaesthesia - pulmonary edema and dyspnea.
Here's the meat of the last report the cardiologist made on Puck:
So, he's not too seriously affected. And seems to be holding steady. The reasons that I determined that Hawthorn would be good for him to take are simply because it is known to be a nutritional, tonic sort of herb for the heart. Dr. Schwartz recommends it for animals with "distinguishable tongue cracks, easy overheating and panting, mild restlessness and agitation with new situations". This fits him to a T. Also, from other readings I've done in human herbals, it seems to be quite well researched, at least in comparison to other herbs. Figured its antioxidant effects couldn't hurt either.
What confused me about your original post on this herb was its action in strengthening contractions. The stuff I've read all says that the bioflavanoids relax and dilate arteries which in turn increases blood flow. 1994 German studies showed that it was very helpful in (human) chronic heart failure by improving heartbeat rates and lowered blood pressure. However other studies have shown it to raise low blood pressure as well, in effect evening it out in either direction. Is this lowering of blood pressure the problem for the cats? Or is it simply dangerous to take human results and try to adapt them to our pets? I also vaguely remember crataegus being mentioned as having a slight diuretic effect, which also might be helpful.
I'd certainly appreciate and further comments, insights or clarification you have on this. Even if you could point me to some sources of further study, that would be great. I know you must be very busy, so thanks for taking time out to caution me and comment.
Be well,
Nancy and the furkids
And now Dr. Wynn's reply:
Hi Nancy:
Ok with me if you also post my reply to your info.
You have done excellent research on the effects of this herb. I think you are simply missing a little more information. Yes, hawthorn does apparently cause vasodilation, of both coronary and peripheral arteries. This is especially useful in the kind of cardiovascular disorders that people get, but not as much in animals. The other main effect is an increase in heart contractility, which has been confirmed in 2 studies that I know of. I am not 100% convinced by these studies, but that is another matter. Anyway, this means that hawthorn, with its fairly well researched actions, crosses the line from medicine food to phytopharmaceutical. Medicinal foods are great, but if an animal is in very marginal condition, could cause them to cross over into a crisis.
Hawthorn is probably appropriate for most kinds of canine heart disease, since dogs rarely develop hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. The most common cause of heart disease in cats *is* hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. Cardiologists currently treat HCM with drugs that relax the myocardium, and consider anything that increases contractility absolutely contraindicated. In the case of hawthorn, its effects are actually not well characterized. It is certainly a lovely antioxidant, but the hemodynamic effects characterized so far seem to vary somewhat, depending on who is studying it and how. It may or may not increase contractility, increase relaxation *times*, increase cardiac vasodilation, decrease peripheral pressures. If we are looking for something that decreases peripheral pressures in cats, I would be looking at *low* doses of garlic, perhaps, and for antioxidants for the heart/CV system, how about ginkgo, which is a nice geriatric antioxidant AND inhibits clotting, which is the primary problem in HCM cats?
Mary Wulff-Tilford and I are trying to hash this out and see if we can find any consensus on this issue. One of us will try to report back if we get it figured out!
************************************************************************
Susan G. Wynn, DVM
Dear Pam,
I am so very sorry to hear about Smudge:(( 3.9 lbs??!!
Has she always been so tee tiny? Poor kitty. If u are giving
subqs, make sure her heart has checked out fine, and given how small she
is, I'd keep subq amounts lower than normal in her case.
As for food, I think k/d is vile so would not feed it but u might consider syringe-feeding her Hills AD (not bad ingredients) mixed in w/ some supplements. If she eats on her own, that's wonderful.
Purrsonally, I believe in hi quality bio-available protein. The debate on lo vs. regular protein levels for cats w/ CRF rages on so u have to pick a side and run w/ it. I am currently feeding my CRF cat the same food that my other cats eat, only I cook it, run it thru a blender, and then suck it up w/ a syringe. I mix some enzymes, acidophilus, apple cider vinegar (the reason I add Apple Cider Vinegar is b/c it is hi in potassium (which is depleted in cats w/ CRF) and fish oil to the food. Course Boo also gets other supplements for his kidneys and heart (email me if u want that info).
One thing u can do herbally speaking is get some dandelion leaf either in tea bags or loose dried herbs or tincture. Mix this w/ Smudge's food and give it to her. I swear by Dandelion leaf. When Boo was first diagnosed w/ HCM, he had a lot of fluid in his lungs for which he was prescribed Lasix. But Lasix has side-effects like loss of potassium etc. so I gave dandelion (and a little Hawthorne Berry) instead. 2 weeks later when I took him in to the vet, she said there were no signs of fluid in the lungs...all thanks to Dandelion and hawthorne berries (for his heart) which also has a slight diuretic effect. Basically, u wanna help Smudge's kidneys as much as possible and dandelion helps flush out the toxins while maintaing the correct Na-K balance in the body.
Let me know if I can help in any way. Yes, the CRF list is a great resource and the people on that list are very kind and caring so I would highly recommend it. Majority of people who post to that list follow the allopathic route so as long as that's not an issue, check it out.
Sandy
Hi everyone,
I got Mary Conley's permission to post this since so many of us use
herbs for our kitties. This appeared in the latest issue of "Herbs
for Health" magazine.
___
Add these to your ever growing list of things to be careful about when
taking herbs if you are on pharmaceuticals.
[snip]
Hawthorn - Can possibly enhance cardiac glycosides.
[snip]
Before taking a herb, be sure to check with a professional, or do some
research on your own if you are on allopathic medications. There
are so many components to some of the herbs in use today, either by themselves,
or in combinations, that it is extremely important to know what they do.
We are still finding out about a lot of these interactions. It is
also vitally important to check with your doctor or pharmacist, if you
are taking any allopathic medication, for side effects, interactions, or
synergistic problems that can occur from your drugs. If the pharmacy
is computerized, and many of them are, then have the pharmacist take a
moment to input your herbal consumption into the computer to keep on file.
Interactions are always coming into us, and updating each file takes seconds
of care. You just have to let us know what you're taking.
Source: Herbs for Health, November/December 1998 Issue.
Mary L. Conley, MNH
***************************
My comments are instructional only.
Please be sure to seek the care of a health professional.
Hi all
<<Yes, Nancy, you're right, I was mixed up for sure. I did more checking in my old emails and found that Peggy mentioned that Dr. Susan Wynn posted advising caution in using it with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (she doesn't recommend it) because one of its properties is that it increases the strength of the heart's contractions. OTOH, Sandy has been using it for Booey, and Susan for Luigi - right, guys? - with good results. So thedebate continues.>>
FWIW, the homeopathic vet we've consulted in the past for Kashmir was adamantly opposed to me using hawthorn for Kashmir's enlarged heart for that very reason. She said that Kashmir's heart is working hard enough as it is and to make it try to work harder could be dangerous. I've never found any information to back that up, but it scared me into not using it. No, I can't argue with success that others have had using it, but I for one am afraid to.
Take care all
Kathy and the cats
Hi all
There is a great herb site at Herbs for Health http://herbsforhealth.miningco.com/library/
and they have linked to
http://www.healthcentre.org.uk/hc/alternatives/herbal_monographs/hawthorne.htm
for a hawthorn monograph. The author of the monograph says that hawthorn
may increase the effect of other cardioactive drugs when taken simultaneously,
so we are right to be cautious about combining it with allopathic meds.
The Herbs for Health site says that it may take up to three months for any effects to be noticed, also that it may need to be taken indefinitely because it doesn't accumulate in the system. It's apparently safe to use with most other cardiac herbs.
They also have a whole lot of links on hawthorn!
--Jean, Saski Basket & Amber Sweet T'ing
hi All
I *love and respect* Susan Wynn for her scientific rationale, but herbalists and vets disagree on the use of Hawthorn in Hypertrophic cardiomyopathies......herbalists believe that it is such a Tonic herb/food, that it will not hurt the heart, no matter what the dis-ease is. People/animals EAT the berries, they EAT the plant, without any problems whatsoever. It is a very tonic herb/medicine, and it will adjust to what the heart needs......
Mary Wulff-Tilford, DIHom; Professional Herbalist,A.H.G.
<<What type of hawthorne berry should I get? A tincture? I guess that would work out best for the gel cap. Shouldn't it be low alcohol? What would be considered low alcohol?>>
Kate, u can just get it in capsule form; that way u don't have to worry about alcohol like u would if u were using the tincture. Just looked in CJ Puotinen's book and she recommends 2 drops if using tincture or 1/2 capsule of a size 00 capsule daily.
<<mistake a few weeks ago. Our vet asked me then if I wanted a cardiologist, and I (not understanding as much as I do now) said that I trusted him (the current guy). So, I'm a little embarrassed to go back now and say, "Well, I changed my mind." And there's only ONE cardiologist in my area so I can't just go to another vet. >>
u have a right to change your mind. U could always say u have been reading up on heart disease and are now ready to take Thack to one. One thing u might wanna ask yourself before u spend the $ at the cardiologist is just what will u learn from him/her and what will u do differently once u find out. This is the finance professor in me <lol> always looking at the cost/benefit ratio esp the aggravation factor for the kitty. Your regular vet took Xrays or something to determine heart probs, right? This should be enough for a homeo vet I would think.
But I can see why the homeo vet might want to get an exact diagnosis before proceeding. Tho having said that, it really isn't necessary b/c homeopaths go by symptoms. They don't care what something is labeled. So I went by Boo's symptoms pretty much. You could also do a phone consult w/ a homeo vet and based on his/her recommendations, decide on the cardiologist.
Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats
Hi all
Kate wrote:
<<herbs, but I think it is time. I checked the 1999 issue
of Natural Cat and this said that Hawthorne berries were very safe.
It sounded to me like exactly what poor Thack needs.>>
Jean writes:
Kate, I just wanted to mention that there is a difference of opinion
on hawthorn. Dr. Susan Wynn has posted advising caution in using it with
hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (she doesn't recommend it) because one of its
properties is that it can increase the strength of the heart's contractions.
Does anyone have her long post - Nancy? I'm not sure if I have or not...
Kathy Buhler wrote:
<<FWIW, the homeopathic vet we've consulted in the past for Kashmir
was adamantly opposed to me using hawthorn for Kashmir's enlarged heart
for that very reason. She said that Kashmir's heart is working hard enough
as it is and to make it try to work harder could be dangerous. I've never
found any information to back that up, but it scared me into not using
it. No, I can't argue with success that others have had using it, but I
for one am afraid to.>>
Mary Wulff-Tilford, on the other hand, posted:
<<I *love and respect* Susan Wynn for her scientific rationale,
but herbalists and vets disagree on the use of Hawthorn in Hypertrophic
cardiomyopathies......herbalists believe that it is such a Tonic herb/food,
that it will not hurt the heart, no matter what the dis-ease is. People/animals
EAT the berries, they EAT the plant, without any problems whatsoever. It
is a very tonic herb/medicine, and it will adjust to what the heart needs......>>
And Susan B and Sandy have both used it successfully on their cats.
Just wanted to present both sides of the question. I'd love to use it on Saski myself, but haven't so far b/c of the difference of opinion. I'll get him examined by a homeopathic vet first, I think, rather than trying to second-guess it myself!
--Jean, Saski Basket & Amber Sweet T'ing
hi everybody, Jean, I saved some of this discussion regarding hawthorne. Susan
Here are some of the messages:
<<Actually, I have do have concerns about hawthorn in cat cardiomyopathies. The most common form is hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, where the heart muscle contracts too much. One of hawthorn's actions is to increase strength of contraction. I am really uncomfortable with this combination, and don't use it. I do use heart glandular, fish oil, vitamin E.>>
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Ng, Peggy wrote:
<< Hi. I emailed Mary W-T (don't know if she's back on this list
yet) about giving hawthorn for cats with existing heart problems
and she said she'd never heard of it causing problems. Whose vet
was it who said that? Mary wanted more info.>
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, vitality wrote:
<<Is it possible I could be harming him by giving him hawthorne?
This is the first time I've ever even considered the possibility.
But the evidence before my eyes would suggest that I've been doing
something right. Is feline hypertrophic cardiomyopathy
different from cardiomyopathy in humans?>>
I mention it because it *is* theoretically possible. There are a number of different types of cardiomyopathy in cats (4, I think), and I assume the same is true in humans. It would be important, I suppose, to know what kind the cat has. I am not saying that we know this for sure, and I find your story very interesting. I *am* saying that, based on what we know of hawthorne's action, it is potentially a bad idea for some cats.
<<Also, what is the "heart glandular" that you use? I've heard of glandulars, but confess to knowing absolutely zilch about them.>>
I feed chicken and beef heart weekly or so.
Susan G. Wynn, DVM
<<and alcohol....wish they could make it more palatable. Does anyone know if you can buy hawthorne capsules? I would really like to give him capsules of powdered hawthorne, alfalfa and some gingo biloba. Anyone know what amounts I would give or where to find the hawthorne? I think this would be easier than this liquid......>>
Sure, Hawthorne Berry is widely available in capsule form. Vitamin Shoppe must have it, and Puritan's Pride too. Usually it's the main herb in "heart combos" but the other 2 herbs u mention won't necessarily be in a heart combo. So u can either get all 3 separately in alcohol tincture form and mix 'em up, add warm water to get rid of the alcohol and administer that way. He may not react to it negatively since it won't taste as bad. I personally do not take glycerine tinctures b/c they make me gag, so hats off to any kitty who puts up w/ glycerine.
U can also get all 3 herbs in capsule form, and then empty wach of the
3 capsules, mix up the powder, and stuff into 1 capsule. That way
u get those 3 herbs into him in 1 shot.
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