Good morning, all!

I'm having a problem with Thackeray's heart rate.  (He is the 14.5 year-old with dilated cardiomyopathy who was also  diagnosed originally with atrial fib.)

The doc put him on atenelol (one quarter of a pill twice a day at 25 mg) to help the atrial fib and to slow his heart rate (which
was about 160 at the time). Seemed to work well.  The next ultrasound showed no more atrial fib, and when I checked his heart rate at home it was usually around 140 or so.  Sometimes a bit lower.  Good!  Later, the doc put him also on digitalis (.6 ccs at .05 mg) once every 48 hours.

During all this, Thack lost a lot of weight, and now he's about 8 pounds.  My husband and I noticed that he seemed to do *much* better if we dropped his digi dose to .3 or so.  We did, and have done so for a couple of weeks even though the doc says that's not a therapeutic dose.  The doc also said he trusts us to judge whether or not Thackeray is in good shape or not-so-good.

Then Thack seemed to get lethargic, and I noticed that his heart rate had dropped *way* down (around 70-90).  Scared me to death.

We stopped the atenelol for two days, and he was back to his charming old self.  Ate well, played, swatted his sister etc.  Last
night we gave him the teeniest little quarter of atenelol we could find because his hr was about 150-160.  His hr dropped quickly to about 90-100.  Not as bad as 70, but it scared me.  A couple hours later, his hr was back up in the normal range, and he purred and exhibited other healthy signs.  This morning, his hr was fine so no atenelol.  His behavior is normal too.

Is there any sort of *natural* way to slow his heart rate when it gets in the high range again? (Obviously, I don't mean let's
slow it when it's 90.)

I'm sorry this is long; I tried to omit irrelevant data and may have forgotten to mention something important.

I sure would appreciate any help.

Thanks,
Kate

hi everybody, Jean, I saved some of this discussion regarding hawthorne.  Susan

Here are some of the messages:

<<Actually, I have do have concerns about hawthorn in cat cardiomyopathies. The most common form is hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, where the heart muscle contracts too much.  One of hawthorn's actions is to increase strength of contraction.  I am really uncomfortable with this combination, and don't use it. I do use heart glandular, fish oil, vitamin E.>>

On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Ng, Peggy wrote:
<<Hi. I emailed Mary W-T (don't know if she's back on this list yet) about giving hawthorn for cats with existing heart problems and she said she'd never heard of it causing problems. Whose vet was it who said that? Mary  wanted more info.>>

<<< Is it possible I could be harming him by giving him hawthorne?  This is the first time I've ever even considered the possibility.  But the evidence  before  my eyes would suggest that I've been doing something right.   Is feline  hypertrophic cardiomyopathy different from cardiomyopathy in humans?>>>

<I mention it because it *is* theoretically possible.  There are  a number of different types of cardiomyopathy in cats (4, I think), and I assume the same is true in humans.  It would  be important, I suppose, to know what kind the cat has.  I am not saying that we know this for sure, and I find your story very interesting.  I *am* saying that, based on what we know of hawthorne's action, it is potentially a bad idea for some cats.>

<<<Also, what is the "heart glandular" that you use?  I've heard of glandulars, but confess to knowing absolutely zilch about them.>>>

<I feed chicken and beef heart weekly or so. --Susan G. Wynn, DVM>

Hello Kate...

<<The subject of dissolving clots has come up several times today,  and   it raises a puzzling point.  Yesterday the cardiologist
 specifically  said that the clot cannot be dissolved, but several of  you seem to have  some knowledge or experience that contradicts this.  I have no idea why  his clot can't be dissolved.>>

Although I don't have any knowledge as to why Thack's clot can't be dissolved, I am one of those whose cat had a clot and it *was* dissolved with blood thinners.  In Motley's case, the clot lodged in her hindquarters, and while it didn't completely paralyze her, she had extreme difficulty getting up from a lying-down position or walking.  Within 36 hours of getting the blood thinners, she was up and running around again.  Perhaps the difference is in *why* the clot occurred.  In Motley's case, she "threw" a clot 10 days after surgery to remove her thyroid gland.  My vet was adamant that the clot didn't have anything to do with the surgery, but was formed because of heart disease caused by her hyperthyroidism. Interestingly enough, however, another vet who read the ultra-sound of her heart said he could detect no evidence of heart damage.  My gut tells me that it wouldn't be uncommon for a clot to occur after surgery...just as in humans!

<< The 1/4 aspirin we are to give him (3 x/week) is supposed to prevent others from forming.>>

After Motley's clot, our vet prescribed 1/4 aspirin (or 1 baby aspirin) every 3 days for the same reason.  Unfortunately, Motley
experienced severe diarrhea while on the aspirin, and I discontinued it after a few weeks.  I'm happy to report that she has been fine ever since and has not had another clot.

Again, there may be differences, especially since your kitty has been diagnosed with heart disease...but I certainly would ask the vet *why* blood thinners wouldn't help.

In any case, I wish you both the best....  Motley and Taz send their loudest purrs and head-bonks to you and Thack.  He's lucky to have you as his "mom".

Diane, Motley, and Taz

Kate R wrote:

<<Has Eddy been seen by a cardiologist?  If there is one near you and if you can afford it, it might be a good idea.  Regular vets sometimes  do not have a lot of proactice with the ultrasound -- just a thought.>>

I just wanted to add my enthusiastic second to Kate's recommendation here.  Having a couple of good ultrasounds, though they are fairly costly, can really make it easier to track your cat's response to any treatment for heart problems.  It's now possible for a specialist to tell whether there is turbulence associated with the HCM, where it is located, and how much of it there is, and that helps a lot in determining treatment approaches.  (It's also rather fascinating to hear your kitty's heartbeat and see the working heart on the computer screen, if you have that option) and it's a non-invasive procedure, too!

Cheers,
Linda

Hi all
My last post about bladder problems hasn't shown up yet, as far as I can tell, but here's another post on heart problems. Heidi, this may all be a bit overwhelming at first, but I hope some of it can do some good. If your vet only suggested taurine and nothing more drastic, it is my hope that the murmur isn't too severe. This first part is from CJ Puotinen's "The Encyclopedia of Natural Pet Care".

begin quote

Nutritional Therapy: to prevent and help treat heart disease, feed your pet a well-balanced, raw diet. Supplement the diet with high quality vitamins A, E, and C, coQ10, essential fatty acids and trace minerals...

Cider vinegar provides essential potassium; make a cider vinegar tincture of garlic or add cider vinegar by itself to food and water. Magnesium is essential to heart health but consult with your holistic veterinarian before adding magnesium supplements in large quantities. Raw bones provide magnesium, calcium, potassium and other minerals in the form most easily assimilated by dogs and cats in their proper balance; make raw bones your first choice in mineral supplements for heart health.

Selenium, zinc and chromium are also essential for the heart. Feed foods that are rich in these minerals, such as Brazil nuts (selenium), lamb, turkey and beef (zinc) and brewer's yeast or nutritional yeast (chromium) or give appropriate supplements. [My note: many animals are allergic to yeast; it may be wise to supplement cautiously with this one.]

Without the amino acid taurine, cats develop heart disease. This is not a risk factor for any cat on a raw-meat diet.

Herbal therapy: Garlic, which is both a food and a medicinal herb, is one of the best herbs for the heart. By far the most frequently prescribed herb for heart disease is hawthorn berry; it repairs and strengthens heart muscle and can be used daily for months or years with no adverse side effects. [My note: once again, I'd advise caution in using *anything* for months or years.] ... The Chinese herb fo ti protects and dilates blood vessels, increases blood flow to the heart and acts as an adaptogen to
correct imbalances.

Cayenne pepper is another heart healer. Add small amounts of cayenne to your pet's dinner or give cayenne in capsules with plenty of food and water. Start with standard-strength cayenne, usually 45,000 heat units... Gradually increase the amount of cayenne in food or capsules or increase the heat units (100,000 or more)... Cayenne is appropriate for prolonged daily use.

The herbs gotu kola, ginkgo and ginger all help improve circulation. Bilberry strengthens capillaries. Add their teas, tinctures, powders or  capsules to your pet's food on a rotating basis along with fresh minced dandelion greens, watercress and other herbs.

Homeopathy: For mild cases of heart weakness, the tissue salt Calcarea fluorica 6X can be given daily. If the problem is related to nervousness or excitement, use Kali phosphoricum 6X. [My note: perhaps someone better versed in homeopathy and tissue salts can confirm the daily use of salts???]

Crataegus oxyacantha remedies at low potencies such as 1X or 3X are widely used for animals with weak, dilated hearts, breathing difficulty, fluid retention, and, in most cases, nervousness or irritability.
end quote

Pitcairn's suggestions include a B complex vitamin, especially with niacin and pyridoxine. He says major components should be 10-50 mg each. He also recommends a trace mineral supplement containing chromium and selenium, and chelated zinc. I can post his and Macleod's homeopathic suggestions if anyone's interested.

Diane Stein's suggestions are very long; I'll post these tomorrow.
Take care all
Kathy and the cats

Paul,
Hi again!  I hit the send now button by mistake.  Unfortunately, a trained cardiologist did not read Missy's echo.  A traveling echo technician/vet comes to this particular vet clinic once a week, each Tuesday.  She does a variety of echos, mainly thoracic and abdominal though.

I really couldn't understand why a more definitive diagnosis couldn't have been given.  I was familiar with the terminology, and when the vet informed me that Missy had slight pleural effusion, I knew this meant that fluid was starting to leak into her lungs.

I have had a heart problem for over 20 years, and I had my first cardiac echo in 1978 when I was quite young.  I have had probably more than 10 cardiac echos done in my life; the last three years the hospital where I have had the procedure done has utilized color doppler echo as well.  So, I know that the cardiac echos can really yield a significant amount of information about the condition of the valves, regurgitation (leakage) of the valves, size of the atria and ventricles, heart contractility and so forth.

The vet did indicate that if I wanted to, Missy could be referred to a cardiologist for a further follow-up.  However, the vet suggested that I wait six months and repeat the chest x-ray.  I don't know if this is good advice or not.  Thanks for your input.  :-)

Heidi

In a message dated 3/5/99 8:20:01 PM, you wrote:
<<This is surprising. An experienced cardiologist should be able to readily interpret an ultrasound. It's amazing what the right eyes can do. With Phillip's echo, I saw grainy blotches of light and dark gray. The cardiologist could identify each chamber, and show exactly what parts were affected, and how severe the CM was.

EKGs and X-rays can give ambiguous results, but I know of nothing more conclusive than an echo. Was there a cariac specialist who shot and/or interpreted the echo, or was it just a vet with the machine?
Paul T. O'Leary>>

Hi all
This is again very long. I want to include the Stein stuff because she says  some interesting things about each *side* of the heart. I'll break this into two or three posts; this is Stein's "The Natural Remedy Book for Dogs and Cats", followed by Pitcairn, Macleod and maybe Allport.

begin quote

When failure occurs in the left side of the heart, pulmonary pressure builds, resulting in lung congestion and pulmonary edema (fluid buildup in the lung sacs). The animal coughs after exercise, may bring up a bubbly red fluid, is out of breath, and her tongue and gums may look bluish. The pulse is rapid, weak and irregular, with heart murmurs. When the dis-ease is advanced there may be anxiety or fainting spells. Coughing at night and after exercise or excitement are early symptoms. When the  failure is on the right side, pressure backs up in the veins, resulting in congestive heart failure. The animal is lethargic, with shortness of breath, heart murmurs, rapid pulse and lack of appetite. In later stages there is weight loss, spleen and liver enlargement, kidney failure and fluid in the abdomen.

In cardiomyopathy in cats the heart wall either thickens and stiffens, or thins and balloons out. There is low blood pressure, resulting in not enough blood to nourish the organs. Organ failure occurs, and blood clots may cause strokes.... [some stuff about dogs and heartworm snipped]

Naturopathy: Apple cider vinegar in the water bowl or on food is a potassium supplement for pets on diuretics; it may make a veterinary potassium medication unnecessary. Raw honey and / or bee products strengthen the heart, and are tonics and nutrients. Garlic lowers high blood pressure and cholesterol levels. Kelp lowers blood pressure and eases angina pain. For cats with cardiomyopathy's low blood pressure, substitute trace mineral powder for the kelp in [Frazier's] Vita-mineral mix. Richard Pitcairn suggests substituting dolomite powder for bone meal in the Dog/Cat powders. Be careful of lead contamination in dolomite if you choose to do this; a trace mineral powder is preferred. Give digestive enzymes daily with meals.

Vitamins and Minerals: Pets on veterinary heart medications need increased amounts of all vitamins and minerals. Diuretics in particular wash nutrients from the body. Use vitamin C in the salt-free ascorbic acid form, going to bowel tolerance. [My note: perhaps calcium ascorbate would be easier on the stomach than ascorbic acid?] Vitamin E is primary in all forms of heart dis-ease and hypertension. Give 100 IU daily for cats. Give 10,000-25,000IU of vitamin A daily [??] with 400-800 IU of vitamin D once a week. Both vitamins A and E come in emulsified dry forms that are easier to assimilate and make overdoses impossible. [My note: never say never. Use caution.] Pat Lazarus suggests adding vitamin E only after the pet's heart is stabilized. She also suggests magnesium to regularize the heart rate and potassium (as cider vinegar). Other minerals include 5-10 mg of zinc daily
(important), and chromium and selenium in the trace mineral powder. Give a daily complete B complex in higher amounts than usual (20-50 mg), with additional B6 and B3 (niacinamide form only). CoQ10 helps bring oxygen into the cells and tissues. Essential fatty acids, such as evening primrose oil [my personal feeling would be to use salmon body oil instead for cats], may
prove helpful.

Herbs: Hawthorn berry is the most frequently recommended herbal for the heart; it is a tonic, strengthener and heart muscle repairer, and may be used daily long-term...Do not skip doses. Hawthorn may also be given as a tea/infusion, or made into an elixir. The major heart drug digitalis was synthesized from the foxglove plant, and a similar herbal -- considered safer -- is lily of the valley flowers. Use either of these only under expert supervision, or the homeopathic remedies.

Juliette de Bairacli Levy recommends rosemary tea with honey as her central herbal for heart dis-ease and heart weakness. Give one level tsp of pure raw honey to every tbsp on rosemary infusion. In addition, use dandelion and / or watercress in one meal per day as a diuretic and for mineral contents. Heartsease (wild pansy) is another heart tonic herb. Parsley or dill seed tea also makes excellent herbal diuretics and can take the place of medical drugs. Uva ursi (bearberry), juniper and buchu are
other herbal diuretics. [My note: I recall that juniper is not supposed to be given to cats, and that bearberry is contraindicated for cats with kidney disease. I hope I'm remembering that correctly, someone set me straight if I'm wrong!] Alfalfa increases the action of other herbs taken along with it; it also regulates blood pressure and reduces cholesterol. Scullcap is a safe calmative, as is peppermint tea. A combination of scullcap, cayenne and goldenseal is a heart strengthener (but tastes awful -- put it into
capsules).

Homeopathy:

• Crataegus, homeopathically prepared hawthorn, is the remedy for the animal with extreme breathlessness on exertion, when she has irregular, weak or intermittent pulse, when symptoms worsen as the environment worsens, when she has high blood pressure and is nervous and irritable.
• Convallaria majalis (lily of the valley) increases heart action and regulates heart rate; it is recommended when there is difficulty breathing, dropsy, angina, palpitations from the least exertion, and lung congestion.
• Digitalis (foxglove) is used after faintness or prostration following exertion; the pulse or heartbeat is abnormally slow; the animal may collapse; she may have a blue tongue; and there may be liver involvement.
• Apis is indicated when there is edema (water retention, dropsy).
• Strophanthus hispidus is for heart weakness due to valve problems (murmurs); there is a weak, irregular pulse and difficult  breathing. The pet may be obese and have skin problems.
• Carbo veg aids breathing
• Spongia is for dry, gasping heart coughs.
• Aconite is a first-aid measure.
• Give Cactus Grandiflorus for emergencies and for general heart dis-ease symptoms; the animal may respond to cactus
• where other remedies fail.

Take care all
Kathy and the cats

Hi all
Pitcairn's homeopathy suggestions

begin quote

• Tissue salt Calcarea fluorica 6X: helps to restore strength to the heart muscle, especially when it is dilated and the action is weak.
• Tissue salt Kali phos 6X: Suited for the problem that seems more functional (rather than the result of tissue changes or pathology). That is, such things as nervousness and physical or emotional excitement seem to lead to symptoms.

• Crataegus 3X: Indicated for the animal with a dilated heart, weak heart muscle, difficult breathing, fluid retention and (often) a nervous or irritable temperament.
• Strophanthus hispidus 3X: For the weak heart with valvular problems. The pulse is weak, frequent and irregular, and breathing is difficult. There may also be fluid retention, loss of appetite and vomiting. Obesity and chronic itching of the skin also point to this medicine.
• Digitalis 6X: Give one tablet of the 6X potency after an attack in which the animal collapses or even faints after exertion, with the tongue turning blue. Often the pulse or heart rate is abnormally slow. There may be heart dilation and fluid retention. Liver disturbances may be evidenced by a white, pasty stool. If you give a tablet after each attack, the attacks will become less frequent (if treatment is helping).
• Spongia tosta 6X: For the animal whose crises are characterized by a rapid pulse, difficult breathing and fearfulness. It may have difficulty lying down and may breathe easier sitting up. A dry, persistent cough is an indication for this medicine.

Macleod's homeopathic suggestions (From "Cats: Homeopathic Remedies")

• Lycopus: An exaggerated, quick, irregular pulse. Prominent breathlessness. 3X, one dose twice daily for 30 days.
• Adonis: One of the best remedies for valvular disease. Urine output is decreased and the urine contains albumen and casts. The heart action is exaggerated. 1-2X, one dose 3 times daily for 21 days.
• Convallaria: The pulse is full and intermittent and the animal is disinclined to move. 2X, one dose three times a day for 21 days.
• Lilium tig: Small, rapid, weak pulse. Even slight movement exacerbates the condition. Sometimes the remedy acts better in the female. 3C, one dose twice daily for 30 days.

<<I am trying to follow up on some things for my neighbor with the cat  with cardiomyopathy. Currently the cat is taking
Lasix twice a day. Going through old post it sounds like taurine, CoQ10, & Hawthorne would be helpful for her to try, what would the dosages be for starting the cat on.  Also, any suggestions as to homeopathic medicine for her to try?>>

Kathy, I have done a lot of research on heart disease esp when it comes to cats.  And after losing Boo to heart failure, I can tell u this is a very complex and dangerous disease.  In a way, I find it more scary than CRF b/c when it comes to the heart, it's very hard to gauge how one's cat is doing.  The signs are a bit harder to read even if one has a very close relationship to one's cat.

I hesitate to recommend any homeopathic remedies b/c those have to be tailored to the kitty.  Suffice it to say, nothing works better than homeopathy; there are tons of homeo remedies for heart probs and they work really well.

Since your neighbor's kitty is on Lasix, then first off she needs to check w/ her vet and *slowly* wean him off it, if possible.  Reason being Lasix is a very strong diuretic, and typical allo med that it is - it is not discriminating in terms of what all it takes w/ it.  So kitty loses valuable stuff from the body along w/ the extra fluid around the lungs, e.g. potassium, magnesium, to name just a few.  So if she insists on using lasix, at the very least she should consider potassium supplementation. The K levels must be monitored using a CBC b/c just like lo K is bad, hi K can stop a heart.

Also a cat on Lasix will lose fluid from not just the heart, but the kidneys as well.  So the kidneys can get compromised.  U can't win w/ allo drugs.

Anyway, here's what I gave Boo Boo daily:

• Taurine - 500mg a day (250 in the morn and 250 in the eve)
• CoQ10 - 30mg
• L-Carnitine - 250mg

BTW, dandelion is Mother Nature's most purrfect diuretic - it is hi in Potassium so it doesn't cause the good stuff to be excreted from the body along w/ the bad the way Lasix does.  Hawthorne has a slight diuretic action, and has been used for centuries safely.   I have asked several herbalists whose opinion I respect and not one has cast aspersions on Hawthorne but some other non-herbalists seem to think it might not be a good idea for Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy.  If I had heart disease, u better
believe I'd use it but to each his/her own <shrug>

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

I have a good friend in South Africa who is using moducare for all her cats.  When I asked her what it was she said it was like the immune-plus herbal supplement that I took her from England when I visited.

She uses it for her nursing mothers, and also for her older Burmese who has a heart condition.  She's been very impressed with the results.  In fact, I thought she was on this list, but she may be a bit busy to check HOL mail, as her baby had kittens last night.  If you'd like to ask her directly you can e-mail her: mailto:nikita@intekom.co.za

Julia

Welcome to the list, Kim.  Micetro has a wonderful meowmy:) I don't know if you need any extra info on the atenolol, but it's in my new book _The Pill Guide to Medication for Your Dog and Cat_, so I thought I'd give the list a little info.

Begin Quotation:
Atenolol
Type of Drug: Beta-adrenergic blocking agent
Prescribed for:  Dilated Cardio myopathy, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy in cats, high blood pressure, and abnormal heart rhythms

Cautions and Warnings:

• Beta blockers should be started and discontinued gradually.
• Beta blockers should be avoided or used with extreme caution in animals with overt heart failure, heart block, slow heart rate, or significant kidney dysfunction.  They should be avoided in animals with asthma, bronchospasm, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.  Atenolol has less effect on airways than propanolol [another beta-blocker with much stronger side effects].
• Atenolol is not FDA approved for use in dogs or cats.  It is commonly used and considered accepted practice.

End Quotation

There's a description of how the drug works and a section on drug interactions, but I'm not going to type those up unless someone wants 'em.

Kim, it sounds like you did a good thing taking your baby off this drug. Only 2 yrs old!  I am so sorry you're having to deal with this
condition in your baby. :(

Hugs, Susan