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From: Jnglecats@
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:33:17 EDT

alles@ writes:
<< I guess I didn't introduce myself very well the last time I asked my question. >>

You did fine, Rosemary.  We just don't always have it together - my email wasnt' working right, and everyone else was probably moaning in jealousy over you being in Hawaii - just wait till winter, it'll get worse!

Mele Kalikimaki - that's the only Hawaiian I know and I probably didn't even get that right!

Anyway, on to the coccidia. Do you know much about homeopathic nosodes? I have a product called Bowel Pathogen Nosode Drops, made by Professional Health Products Homeopathic Division, Sewickley, PA 15143.  (you can get there phone # from information).  A nosode (at least in this case) is a homeopathic preparation that has in it a tiny portion of the bacteria (or whatever) that caused the problem you are trying to treat.  I used this remedy for my cats when they had a clostridium infection, and it seemed to work.  This remedy has Enterococcinum, which I believe is the name for coccidia.  You should
telephone the company and ask them if this is true.

Anyway, according to George McLeod, nosodes can be used prophylactically (to prevent) or therapeutically.  I used this, I believe successfully, for the clostridium.  Of course, bacteria is different from parasites, but they are both in this remedy.

If you decide to get this, I'll share my experience with dosing.  My other suggestion would be to find a homeopath who can make you an isode, which is a homeopathic remedy taking a tiny bit of the actual problem from your cats (the oo-cysts) and making a remedy out of it, same principal as the nosode except from the specific animal.  Remember, in homeopathy like cures like, that's the whole idea behind this stuff.  I'm explaining because I don't know how much YOU know.

I don't know about carriers and such, but I would NOT give up one of your kittens, at least until you have tried absolutely everything.  One of the problems with antibiotics is that they encourage new strains of bacteria or bugs that are resistant to the antibiotic.

Good luck and let me know if this info is useful!

Lee, Cleo, Keoki, Kelly and the Peach

Hi Leah,

Booey is much better <whew>!  Kathy was kind enough to send  me info from various books since mine are all still packed.
 When Booey first started sneezing, I thought of Allium  Cepa since I think it was dust allergies (i did his room  last but poor baby is so sensitive).  From what Kathy wrote yesterday, Allium Cepa seemed like my best bet but unfortunately, my homeo remedies are out of reach too:(  I thought I had packed them separately but John mixed 'em up w/ something else..boo hoo.

Anyway, I have been giving him Echinacea + Goldenseal tincture and Vit C crystals mixed in his raw food plus a Stinging Nettle capsule.  Just 1 dose made a big diff but he's had 3 total and is doing way better so I am one relieved mama cat.

About the homeo dilution, 50-50 is wayyyyy too much alcohol, imo.  Everclear is heavy-duty stuff, the very best actually.  It is 200 proof or 100% alcohol, the strongest stuff u can get.  How I prepare my remedies is to put about 2-3 pillules/pellets of the remedy, then fill up the brown dropper bottle w/ spring water (about 3/4), and last add a few drops of Everclear as a preservative.  The big thing w/ Everclear is that it is potent (zowie!), and has no flavor to speak of.  I'm no expert but 50% seems
like overkill in a homeo remedy.

Hope Giddy is doing well.  Purrs from my gang.

Sandy

Hi Leah,

 Leah wrote:
<<For those of you that have made liquid dilutions of remedies, I have a  question.  Since Giddy's next remedy is one that I have on hand, the vet  gave me instructions to dilute it in a 1 ounce dropper bottle.  He  recommended using Everclear or vodka as part of the dilution - 50:50  mixture of distilled water and alcohol.  I understand from talking to someone in the health food store today that Everclear is *very* strong,  would it be better to use vodka?  Any opinions out there?>>

<< Sandy -
I have McCleod's Veterinary Rep. and MM and his Dogs: Homeopathic Remedies.   If you had said there was some eye discharge, there are a few that might  be indicated, but without that, is there a little more we could work with? Allium cepa indicates copious, watery discharge from the nose with breathing oppressed.  It states it is used in the early stages of most catarrhal conditions.  Most of the other remedies mention an eye discharge.
Leah>>

It depends on how long you are planning on keeping this stuff around IMHO.   What I do for short term use, is mix the pills in spring water in the dropper  bottle. No alcohol or anything.  Then I store it in the fridge.  I would think  this would keep for weeks if not longer. If I know that I want the remedy aroud for awhile, I'll add a bit of vodka or glycerin, but only about 10% at most.
 50-50 seems like overdoing it to me and my animals sure wouldn't like it.  I'd be hesitant to give that much alcohol to a sick animal if I needed to dose them several times a day, too.  Everclear is nasty stuff - it's so strong.  And it burns in the mouth.  (A friend talked me into trying a shot of it last year.  Yuck!)

Be well,
Nancy and the furkids

Thanks to those of you who offered ideas and experiences with dilution of remedies.  I called my vet this morning and tried to take careful notes on what he said.  Remedies are diluted in alcohol (or distilled water) when they are originally made.  Making a stronger dilution of 50:50 will enable the remedy to maintain it's integrity much longer and not experience bacterial or other yucky growth.  As a couple of you mentioned, the strong rate is probably not necessary for use with a one time dose.  However, we just don't know whether we'll need to give this again in two weeks or not. He also said, he has found, in his experience with clients, the less they have to deal with doing a technique, the better.  In other words, many people don't like to have to deal with mixing up a fresh batch each time. *I* don't mind doing that, but apparently some do.  He said it would be perfectly fine to use a lesser amount of alcohol, but it might not keep as long.  Apparently, there is another reason too.  Even though people ho are familiar with homeopathic remedies know about the various specific rules involving them, the general public does not.  If someone would say, for instance, acidentally allow the dropper to make contact with the pet's mouth.  That might/would contaminate the remedy if there's not much alcohol in there.

Sandy, I'll send you a note re: his explanation on the succussion, unless others would be interested.

By the way, have any of you read a book by Timothy Dooley, called "Homeopathy - Beyond Flat Earth Medicine"?  It apparently has some good basic information in it for an introduction to homeopathy.  I always recommend either the Panos book or one of Ullman's books; if they like more technical stuff - Homeopathy, Medicine of the New Man.

So - I think I'll just make up a dose with a smaller amount of alcohol and make a fresh batch if I need to give it again.  Anything to help my fur ball--- <G>

Hi Leah and all,

I've been thinking of why the vet told u to add alkiehol and succuss 5 times.

Ok, potentization occurs when there is *both* dilution (1  drop of the remedy tincture: 99 parts water or alcohol to
get an increase in 1C) and succussion (the vibration from rapping the remedy bottle against an object).

So, when I start w/ say a 3C and simply dilute it, I end up  w/ 3C when I am done.  I always give very lo potencies and
repeat only if needed.  I hardly ever put much alcohol  except when I feel I'm going to be using the same bottle for say more than 2-3 weeks.

Usually, what I do since I have a healthy fear of provings, is give the 3C for a few doses, then dilute it again by taking 1 drop from the 3C liquid, and add 99 drops of water.  But this time, I also succuss it 100 times to get to 4C potency.  This way I keep upping the potency each time, and still never get to a really hi potency.

I have never experienced an aggravation in me or my cats, b/c of this method, I feel.   I am a firm believer that
aggravations can be avoided most of the time.

Leah, as we talked about, the 5 succussion is to slightly change the potency (tho not to the next level since we would be 95 raps short this way) since u are diluting it too. A lot of people use pure alcohol when making a new potency but that's if they want to keep that as their stock bottle for yrs and yrs.  Every time they want to use that potency, they then put 1 drop in 99 parts water, and use that way.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, btw.  Here's my feeling - if a vet/homeopath, cannot explain why they tell a client to do something a particular way, it's b/c they don't truly understand homeopathy.  I teach undergrad and MBA students some pretty difficult finance topics and even then if I can't give them a short succinct answer immediately, it would be b/c I didn't know the material.  Even the S&L crisis can be encapsulated in a few words so why not homeopathy (my true love:)?

Sandy, off the soapbox

Hi Aurora (I always feel funny writing your (very pretty) name as it is my family name..LOL!),

About your kitten, do u have access to a homeopathy book  for humans or cats?  Or u can post more detailed
symptoms and someone can look it up for u in their book(s).

There are many remedies that can be given to help w/ the negative effects of vaccinations; it would all depend on what other symptoms your little one is exhibiting.

If u have Nux Vomica on hand, it is great as a "clearing" remedy.  My mom at time gave it to me and my bro to get rid of the effects of vaccs, allo drugs, anesthesia etc.

Also, Crabapple flower essence wouldn't hurt in his drinking water.

If u wanna continue w/ the raw feeding, blend the meat chunks w/ veggies (raw) in a food processor, and give him; otherwise he will eat the meat and leave the grain and/or veggies.  Course if u wanna do this long-term, the Phos level will be too hi from meat alone, so u will have to add bonemeal or ground up bone of some sort.

Hope your kitten feels better real soon.  Purrs,

Sandy and the mountain cats

Pulsatilla 200c (homeopathic) once a day.  Do you know how to do homeo dosing?

No food for 20 mins before or after: tip pill out of bottle onto a teaspoon (DO NOT TOUCH IT!), crush with back of another teaspoon, chuck it down the cat's throat.  even if it spits it straight out it will have got the benefit.

Suspending in water is much favoured by HOL list users, but I've found the results are quite dramatically poorer, and if you're not used to homeos it is much easier and safer just to do it with the pill.

(I have a beast cat too: see her on http://users.ox.ac.uk/~jmcm/toffee.html)

Julia

<<Puff is 15, was diagnosed with hyperthyroidism in April  and diagnosed with crf in July.  She also has what I think is
arthritisi or some kind of weakness in the right front leg.  She has a heart murmur classified as a No. 2. >>

Sandy, my little buddy Boo Boo, is in almost exactly the  same boat.  His murmur is the worst grade, whatever that # is:(  He was not even 9 when we found out all this.  It's real tricky but I've been trying to repertorize him for weeks now so I can incorporate all his symptoms; no easy task.

<<For the past month she has been taking nat. mur 6x.  Initially every other day and for the last week and a half daily.  >>

Nat Mur is a tissue salt made from potentized sea/table/rock salt.  It makes sense for a cat w/ kidney failure since there is the sodium retention problem there, and dehydration.  I've given Booey Nat Mur on 2 ocassions in the past to help "balance" Booey's Na levels.  But I have never noticed even a teeny bit of improvement so have only given 1 dose each time before discontinuing.

Why was the dose of Nat Mur for Puff upped to daily?  Was it b/c there was an improvement?  If not, it should not have been increased in frequency, IMHO.

<<Because I'm not seeing a definite difference in her the vet would like to do a single large dose in his office.  30x or (30c?) .>>

Single dose of Nat Mur?  Why in his office?  If given as a  liquid dose, 30 is very unlikely to cause an aggravation, in my experience.

<<I'm concerned about this.  I'm new to homeopathy.  I know it is designed to bring on the problems that it's tying to help the body cure. >>

Sorry to be nit-picky, but the above statement is true only  for a healthy person.  That is how "provings" are done.  Healthy people are given a remedy, and detailed symptoms are taken from them.  Then, when someone exhibits those same symptoms, the idea is that giving the remedy that caused the proving, will alleviate those symptoms.  Notice, I didn't say cure, b/c unless *all* the symptoms are taken into account, all u will get is "palliation".  Sometimes this is worse b/c it drives the disease inward and masks it thereby making it harder to cure.

Believe me, giving Puff a single 30C or 30X dose of some remedy is not too likely to cause the symptoms (tho I've read that some hypersensitive individuals can have aggravations from just 1 dose).  The only way u will do harm is if the remedy is repeated too often (hence my question earlier about the frequency of the 6X) or if the potency is too hi (greater than 200).  The lower the
potency, the less likely u are to have an "aggravation" or worsening of symptoms.

<<Could it agravate her heart murmur or other heart problems by sending her hyperthroid condition even higher?>>

I'm not a vet or a homeopath so my $0.02 may not be worth much, but this doesn't seem likely to me.  A lot of classical homeopaths don't believe in tissue salts to begin with.  Some homeopaths think of tissue salts as supplements, pure and simple.  Tissue salts were developed not by Dr. Hahnemann but by another German homeopath many yrs later called Dr. Schuessler.

<<Her T-4 to 4.0 from I think either 1.9 or 2.1 (unfortunately I don't have the T-4's, I wrote them down and lost the paper)   Her thyroid has been about down into the normal range at that time and a decline in the creatinine level from 3.42 in July to 2.88  in mid July to >2.40 last Friday.  >>

The Nat Mur might explain the lowered Creat.  I don't think the remedy is going to act on the thyroid so considering she is off the Tapazole, unless she is on herbs or homeo treatment for it, it makes sense that the T4 would rise:(

<< guess the difference I wanted to see is at the energy  level and to see an improvement in her right leg, it also trembles when she is sitting up at times.  >>

I'm going thru the same thing, and it is very frustrating; I feel for you and Puff.  Basically, unless Puff gets constitutional treatment, u will have to give several remedies for each of the problems e.g. one for the hind leg weakness, another for dehydration, yet another for the eye problem etc.  While looking for Booey's const remedy, I have been giving him tissue salts for all his problems but I do not give more than 1 remedy at a time, and only give more if it helps him.  This isn't classical but hey, I
gotta do what I must to make my kid feel better.

<<I'm not sure whether I'm expecting too much,  and I don't know whether to go thru with this on Friday or give her daily dose another week.>>

If u want my personal opinion, I would not give Nat Mur daily (based on my previous comments) w/o setting some parameters.  I just don't feel comfortable w/ a set regimen for homeo remedies b/c they are so personal, and their use must be geared toward the individual cat.  I wouldn't get my hopes up over the 30 potency at the vet's.  Has this vet received extensive training in homeopathy?  Did s/he ask u detailed questions about Puff's physical and mental symptoms?  If Nat Mur is based on that, then that's a diff story.

Just FYI, Nat Mur cats are the total opposite of Phos cats (Booey is probably one). They like to be left alone unlike Phos cats.  They don't like a fuss being made over them, and are often cranky and depressed. My late cat Tasha was a Nat Mur but I just didn't get the chance to treat her..it was too late *sniff*.

Hope some of this helps u decide.  Please don't give up on homeopathy.  It is a very powerful method of healing but alas, in this country, a lot of people simply don't have the training to practice it:(  Homeopathy has always worked for me unless I messed up in some way.  There are so many steps - case taking, picking the right rubrics, looking 'em up in sometimes more than 1 Rep, and zeroing in on the right remedy that it is easy to go wrong sometimes.  Acute prescribing is way easier so many people take the easy way out by treating based on that.

Sandy

<<What books are a good source of information the the above subjects?  >>

I've been building my library for yrs so have tons of herbal and homeo books.  If u had to buy just one for starters, I'd get "The Encyclopedia of Medicinal Plants" by an English herbalist named Andrew Chevalier w/ US consultant David Hoffman (author of "The Holistic Herbal" another great book).

A pretty good starter and overall homeopathy book is "The Complete Guide to Homeopathy" by Dr. Christopher Hammond.

Both the above are available at Borders, Barnes&Noble, Amazon, etc.

<<Also where do I get:  flax seed oil, codfish oil, borage oil, salmon oil, and evening primose oil and what brand is the best to use?>>

As to brands, stick w/ the big names.  For herbs, I use only tinctures and I like Zand the best.  What they don't make, I get from Gaia.  Other supplements, I have been happy w/ the Puritan Pride stuff.

Flax seed oil u can get mail-order.  I used to buy it from Swanson's catalog and got the Spectrum brand from them.  I felt it was good quality but switched to grinding flax seeds and feeding that instead.  I figure this way they get some fiber too, and I would expect a mouse's tummy to have seeds in it so it can't hurt.

The salmon and cod are both fish oils so really any good brand of fish oil should suffice.  Fish oils are a poorer source of Omega 3 oils than flax seeds but they have hi levels of DHA and EPA which are good for the heart, kidneys, lungs (I take it for my asthma) etc.  Only 1 thing w/ fish oil - they can be contaminated b/c u don't know where they got the fish from.  I instead feed my cats
mackerel, salmon, sardines about every 3 weeks or so.  But if u can be sure of the quality of the fish oil from a capsule being good, that's a good thing to add to your kitties' food.

Borage and EPO both have Gamma Linolenic Acid (GLA) but borage has way more.  Again, I've been checking into this for some time now, and can't figure out if cats can utilize this or not...at any rate, u don't need both; one or the other will do.

<<have been using Celeste Yarnall,s supplements but have run out and thought I would make my own.  I really don't think it will be cheaper but it could be.  >>

I have not been impressed by CY's supplements.  The big thing w/ all of her type stuff is convenience cuz she delivers in the L.A. area.  But in terms of cost?  No way could she be cheaper than if we bought the stuff ourselves esp. on sale (I'm the coupon Queen of the West:)

<<be most interested in people who have the oriental/siamese breeds.  I have Tonkinese and want to improve their bodies, health and coats.>>

Oooh, I love Tonkinese cats.  They're so pretty esp their eyes.  But really all cats have the same nutritional needs so shouldn't matter what type of kitty one is feeding, I would think.  Sure some breeds are more prone to certain problems like Maine Coons to hip dysplasia etc. but all in all, a kitty is a kitty is a kitty..that's why they are all soooo incredibly precious, right?

<<I have been feeding raw meat now for about 4 months.  They are looking better and I want to continue this.>>

That's wonderful!:)  All my cats are doing so well on this diet too.  When I got my ASH, she had rough dry fur (so did my exotic Pigpen) and now all of them have soft, incredibly plush fur, even Missy the ASH.  And the energy level is unbelievable.  They play and run and stalk and attack like they are teeny kittens.  My 8 (or could be 10 as far as I know) yr old Queen Mum is very kittenish and literally bounces off me and the walls..she makes me smile..awww..love these rascals.

Good luck Virginia.  I assure u it will get way easier as u get to be an old hand at it.  Hang in there, and purrs to your little ones from my kitties.

Sandy and the mountain cats

Hi all
Gabby, I don't know about getting all those remedies in a health food store -- no, wait, that's not true. I haven't seen them in *my* local hfs, but I did see them at a department store pharmacy, where I get all my homeopathic meds (The Bay for the Canadians on the list). You can also order them online, I'm sure, and I think homeopathy overnight carries something like that. It's at http://www.homeopathyovernight.com (I *think* that's the address). Your health food store might also be able to order something like that for you. I'm kicking myself for not getting one while I had the chance. Last summer the one I saw in the Bay was only $50, and it was loaded! Nice case, too. So yeah, I know they're around, you just might have to do some
hunting.
Take care
Kathy and the cats

If you need to get special remedies, you can get them from Standard Homeopathic Company. They have many remedies in tablet form, which is very easy to give to the cats or dogs.

1-800-992-9659
P. O. Box 61067, LA, CA 90061

Tablets in 3x, 6x, 12x, 30x 250ct is $4.99, 1000ct is $13.95

Yumi G

Hi all
Okay, as per Emily's conversation with the naturopath (Is that what he is, Emily?) I've been trying to hunt down Professional Health Products Hyperthyroid Drops. I'm having *zero* luck, and my homeopathic pharmacist says we can't get it in Canada. I can't find *any* reference to the company, even, so I don't know where else to look. If one of you knows where / how to get this product, could you let me know? If it's over $10 US, no need to bother!
Kathy and the cats

<< Is there something, however, which will help this kitty to recover from the  ansthesia  quicker?  Would Arnica help in a situation like this?>>

One dose of homeop. Phosphorus, then arnica after that.  (I haven't  used this but it's the recommendation of an experienced professional  homeopath, for post-op.)

   Jane

Hi Lee,

Jnglecats@  wrote:
<< Sandy, at one point you posted for Vick how to make some sort of mix of the  Calms Forte to help Sam calm down.  It was a while ago and I can't find the  post.  Could you give me the info again? I thank you, and many future airline passengers thank you . . .>>

So it was YOU next to me on the last flight.  <g> Gee, I love to fly and can  sleep through a hurricane in the air, but can't sleep once I get to a hotel, so  I always carry Calms Forte with me.  It's the one and only combo I use.  Too  lazy or superstitious or something to figure out which of the remedies really  does the trick for me I guess.  Next time, just ask and I'll give you some.  :-)

This stuff knocks my dogs out too, but interestingly doesn't work for the big  bad T-storm anxiety for Lady and Puck.  The cats are NEVER anxious, so I  haven't tried it on them yet.

Be well,
Nancy and the furkids

Jnglecats@ wrote:
<< Sandy, at one point you posted for Vick how to make some sort of mix of the  Calms Forte to help Sam calm down.  It was a while ago and I can't find the  post.  Could you give me the info again?>>

Shoot, I lost my old files on Netscape but lemme try it again.  Basically, like Nancy said, Calms is a combination remedy (tho one I
like too) so to be on the safe side, I told Vick to dilute 1 or 2 pills of Calms or Calms Forte in some spring water in a brown dropper bottle.   Since the potencies are really low, it's not as likely to cause a proving but after giving it about 3-4 times, u can take one drop of this solution, and mix it w/ 9 drops of spring water.  Then, depending on whether u believe in the 4th Organon or 5th, u would succuss it 10 times or 100 times.  This way u will end up w/ the next highest potency, and not as likely to aggravate or prove the remedy.  Initially u can dose more frequently but only re-dose if u see any improvement at all; otherwise it's risky to repeat it.

Incidentally, this liquid/aqueous dosing business is based on Dr. Hahnemann's last Orgenon (#6).  FWIW, I have never suffered an
aggravation using liquid doses.

Hope this helps.  Hey Nancy, I'll take Kelly or any other kitty over a screaming human brat on the airplane any day! <g>  When's the last time a kitty kicked the back of your seat on the plane?! arghh..%&$#

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

Kathy,

I do have Thyroidinum (thyroid extract) in 30x. Let me write down the clinical symptoms. Abscess, Acromegaly, Amblyopia, Amenorrhea, anemia, acute pernicious, Angina pectoris, Backache, Chilblains, Constipation, Convulsions, Diarrhea, Dropsy, Dysmenorrea, Eczema, Fainting, Fibroma, Fractures, Goitre, Hair falling off, Failure of heart, disease of valvular, hysteria, hystero-spilepsy, ichthyosis, idiocy, leprosy, mania, hands and arms paralysis, paraplegia, phthisis, pityriasis, psoriasis, puerperal fever, rupia, acleroderma, syphilis, tetanus.

Is this the one you are looking for?

-- Yumi G