<13 May 99 From: Naomi Re: Kittens>

In article <8075db47.246b626b@aol.com>, Jnglecats@ writes

<<Sandy wrote:
 What else can I suggest to her in the meantime is what I'm looking for help with.  i suggested a homeopathic remedy for that one  kitten, but really all of 'em need to be taken in for urgent medical  care:(

Sandy, perhaps you can impress upon her that this is a life threatening  situation.  Kittens that age are extremely delicate, and with the symptoms  you mentioned, without immediate medical attention the kitten won't make it -  may not make it anyway.  From what I've read, tiny kittens can have symptoms  one day and be dead the next - it happens that quick.  >>

Yes,   I do hope the lady manages to get to the vet,  these kittens really do likely need antibiotics.  Although we don't like these drugs, they can really be a life-saver in this sort of situation.  Is she being very careful over sterilising her feeding equipment?  You
have to be just as fastidious as with a human baby,  when hand-rearing kittens.  I found that I could manage much better feeding with a kitten teat on the end of a syringe,  than with a bottle.  It gives much more control over the flow of milk,  and of course if any is aspirated by the kittens,  that is bad news!

Hope there is a good outcome to this.

Naomi

Megan,

I hope all went well with the birth!  Yes,  the babies need to be on  a heating pad if the room is cold.  They do need to be warm before they can feed properly.  I wouldn't let her eat all the placentas as it will likely cause diarrhoea.

Mums' nipples don't always look swollen, as long as the milk is there the babies should have no problems.  once they start suckling the nipples will be drawn out anyway.

GOOD LUCK!!

Naomi

HI If the newborn is cold it needs to be wrmed before it will eat.  I put me birhting box on a electril blanket on low for a couple of days.  Is the baby nusring with the foester mom?  If so then the baby is ok.  Some moms will not let them nurse until they finish delivering.  Did she eat the palcenta. It helps bring the milk in.  Cut it in peices and feed to mom  Joan good luck.  Count placentas should be one for each kitten.

-----Original Message-----
From: Megan

My hugely pregnant foster cat is finally in labor! She has had one little orange tabby looking thing, looks skinny! But basically ok, breathing, etc, mom is grooming it, etc, but mom (Luna)'s nipples seem strange. Her milk is in, you can feel it, but her nipples
aren't swollen, some of them are just a little, some not at all. This little baby hasn't been able to nurse so far, for about 20 minutes, seems cold, roots around, then breathes heavy. I finally put him with another foster I have who's nursing, so he'll
hopefully nurse. How important is the colostrum (sp?).

Any advice, websites, etc, would be great! I'm fostering these cats for a local, very small country shelter, and I can't afford to take these guys to a vet!!!!!!!!! Everyone said cats birth so easily, no problem, but Pixie, the other nursing cat, and Luna's sister, ended up having to have emergency surgery because she retained a dead kitten, and I am still paying that off at the vets!
So any assistance would be helpful! thanks!!
Megan

<<My foster Luna had her one baby last night at about midnight, complete with afterbirth. I stayed up with her all night, finally fell asleep, and just woke up to NO MORE BABIES! Now, I *know* she has more in her!>>

Oh dear, I don't have any experience in this area at all - but a little book I have on cat care says that "the average litter numbers four kittens, produced at about 20-min intervals. If they don't arrive within two hours after straining starts, or if the babies are spaced too far apart after the first one has arrived, it is advisable to take the queen immediately to the vet."

Also the kittens need to drink something within a short period of time after being born or they become dehydrated. Here's a kitten glop recipe - but I'm not sure if this is okay for newborns. You'd need to give him little drops with an eyedropper, I guess, and try holding him close to you so he gets your warmth since the mother cat usually curls around her kittens.

<<no emergency clinic? here's the recipe for kitten glop, used by breeders the world over:
GLOP
Bring to a boil:  8 oz water

• Dissolve in::  1 pkg Knox unflavored gelatin
• Mix with all of the following in a blender:
• 8 oz Whole Evaporated Milk,
• 2 egg yolks,
• 2 TBS hi-calorie mayonnaise,
• 2 TBS hi-calorie yogurt,
• 1 tsp Karo syrup,
• Liquid Pet vitamins,
• 1 capsule of Acidolphulus......

--Jean, Saski Brighteyes & That-Sweetie-Amber

Hi list

I just read an intesting para in Dr. Dorosz' book "Let's Cook for Our Cat":

<quote>
Cats can be finicky and refuse to eat some recipes or mixtures of various foods. They tend to like their food plain, something they can recognize. By mixing several ingredients together, we may turn them off when we place it into their dish. They recognize the smells but somehow they're different so the automatic, natural response is to refuse it all or pick out what is recognizable. If our cat is this way we may have to feed each ingredient separately. For example, cod liver oil may be licked up by itself but  when  mixed in with other ingredients may be refused. This then requires patience and trial and error to see what our cat will eat. Often it just may take time. Or the other alternative is to give each separately. Also we know that each cat is an individual with her own tastes; what one will eat, another within the same household may not.
<end quote>

He also lists some "vitamin & mineral foods" to be added to homemade diets to ensure proper nutrition. Nothing new here but I thought it was a good reference for quantities:

<quote>
Cod liver oil (pure unflavoured) 1 tsp/week - adult
vits A & D   1/2 tsp/week - kitten

Liver (fresh-raw or lightly heated) 1 tbsp/day - all ages
 vits A,D,E & K & minerals

Wheat germ oil (cold pressed) 1 tsp/3 days - adult
 vit E    1 tsp/5 days - kitten

Brewer's yeast (flakes)  1 tsp/day - all ages
 vit B complex

Sunflower seeds (ground fine) 1/2 tsp/day - all ages
 vits E & B's
(ed note: we've discussed before the rancidity problem with these)

Sodium ascorbate (powder)  1/8 tsp/day - all ages
 vit C

Ascorbic acid (powder)  1/8 tsp/day - all ages
 vit C

Kelp (powder or liquid)  1/4 tsp/day - all ages
 iodine & minerals  1 drop/day - all ages

Bone meal or bone dust
(cooked if not fresh)   1/4 tsp/day - all ages
 calcium & phosphorus

Oysters (Eastern)   1 /week - all ages
 zinc

--Jean, Saski Brighteyes & That-Sweetie-Amber

Well!! The current Cat Maternity Ward info: I finally put little Milo (Luna's one little orange kitten) with Mona, my third pregnant foster, who  hadn't even given birth yet, but had her milk in,  and was obviously going to blow any second. Mona accepted little Milo perfectly, and he nursed for the first time in about 24 hours! Then, early yesterday morning, Mona gave birth to two
bee- you- tiful little grey tabbies, but she still  seemed bumpy, and I could feel something in her. Luna had more discharge, but no more babies, so I took them both into the vet today. The results: Luna is definitely done, she's just FAT! The reason little Milo couldn't nurse was because her nipples are inverted! I knew they didn't look right.  So, she's getting her food cut back,
and in a few weeks, after recuperating, she'll be spayed.  Mona's bumpiness that I felt is a hugely full  bladder. It's a slight (5%) possibility that she may  have one more, and if she does, she'll prob have it tonight, but the vet seriously doubts it. So, YEAH!! Pixie's kits are discovering big kitty food, and are fat and happy, and playful. Luna can  go on to be a housecat (probably MY housecat, we'll see...), and doesn't seem to miss Milo at all. Mona has three beautiful boys (MORE BOYS!) all healthy. Am I going to sleep well tonight? <g> But I do have a few questions....

Do I need to do anything to help Luna's milk dry up? Her milk 'sacks' already seem smaller,so I'm assuming cutting back on her food should do it, right?

And, Pixie's boys have a tiny bit of boogers, and eye discharge, and I'm saying a tiny bit. If I give Pixie echinacea, will the boys
get some in her milk? Or are they old enough to get it directly? I'm feeding them a mix of Innova canned, and Dr. Wynn's raw recipe, slightly modified (no grains, no oils), but they haven't progressed past the accidentally stepping in it and licking it off their paws stage.

(I caught little Makai, the orange tabby and white,  very busily skritching and squatting in the litter box yesterday. My sister says I'm the only person she knows who gets excited about an animal pooping!) Thanks for everyone's help! We're over the hard
part. (till we get to the having to give them up part!)

Megan and the kitten nursery

Megan, I am so jealous!  Ty is the only baby kitten I ever had, and his kittenhood is long over.

<<I caught little Makai, the orange tabby and white, very busily skritching and squatting in the litter box yesterday. My sister says I'm the only person she knows who gets excited about an animal pooping!)>>

Well, you can tell her you know one more.  I remember the first time I saw Ty stumble over the side of the litter box (it was taller than he was, and he had to pull himself up and over) I just got so excited, I had to call everyone and tell them and they all thought I was insane.

If Pixie's kitties are old enough to eat adult food, I would assume that giving them echinacea directly would be ok, but please get someone else's opinion on the list who is more knowledgable about that than I, I would never want to tell you anything wrong.  Maybe you could dilute it and mix with their food?

I am so happy that little Milo is being accepted by his foster nurser, I was really worried about the poor baby when I read your last few posts.

You are making me want little ones again!  You are so lucky!  Hugs to all your little ones and their mamas!

Debbie & Family

<<I'm looking for some advice on some 1-week old kittens that I am nursing.>>

Hi Sharon,

Congratulations on your new babies!  Boy, do you have your work cut out for you!

Here is a good site--it has links to several articles on raising orphan kittens: http://www.oocities.org/Heartland/7229/orphans.html

I take it you have the kitten glop recipe, and you know how often to feed.  Just in case, Anitra Frazier says for kittens under 4 oz,
you should feed  every 2 hours for 2 weeks; 4-8 oz kittens feed every 3 hours for the 3rd week; 8-24 oz. feed every 4 hours for the 4th & 5th weeks. Any chance you can find a nursing queen to help you out here?

I have never raised kittens, so I am following Melanie's and now your experiences carefully.  Please let me know if I can help!  Frazier also gives a weaning recipe which she began giving her orphan kittens at 3 weeks.  I'll be happy to type that up if you need it :)

Susan

Hi!  How wonderful that you are helping these babies.  I raised an orphaned kitten - he's now 12 years old and a real sweetie.  The most important things at this stage are being sure they are kept warm and being sure they get  enough food.  The guidelines by Frazier, I think, are good.  But let the kitty tell you how much it needs and how often.  These are just guidelines, and you may have a kitten that needs a bit more, or a bit less.  My guy would turn away when he was done eating.  Even at the age of 1 week, they know.  Also, after they eat, take a washcloth or something else with a textured surface and rub their abdomen.  This simulates the mother's licking and helps the kitten to eliminate.  Gentle strokes in the direction of their tail, even doing their sides and back, but concentrate on the tummy.

Also, if you can find a nursing mother to adopt them, you will all be much better off.  At the very least, do you have another older kitty that will be accepting of these little ones?  My experience was that kittens don't know alot of things.  I remember how funny it seemed that my orphan kitty did not clean himself.  Finally, he learned it from my other adult cat.  What a funny
scene to watch him try to wash his face for the first time, at about 3 months of age!  I can imagine that many of these things are mother taught, and  difficult for us humans to explain!

Good luck and do keep us posted on them!

Melody B

<< Don't know if I should take them to an allo vet or what.  They seem fine otherwise.  And their noses are just a little runny...
 kind of just wet.   Maybe this is normal?  Or is it a sign of something  going wrong? >>

The problem here is that these kittens probably have poor immune systems due  to not nursing from their mom as tiny babies and getting the colostrum from  her.  At the least I would try calling the holistic vet back until you reach her, she may also have some good suggestions for feeding the kittens.  These little guys already have a big strike against them without a mom, so I would certainly watch them closely.  Anyone know if L-Lysine is ok to add to the stuff they're drinking?  Lysine helps keep viruses from replicating in the body, so it could be really useful to them.  If you notice any sticky eyes (are they open yet?), that should be treated right away - usually with terramycin, but as long as you have a holistic vet, I would ask her what to use.  We tend to go with the stuff we know works, even if it's allo; but having a holistic vet would be so helpful.  There are lots of different things you can use if the eyes get involved that are more natural, but eye infections in young kittens can be dangerous

Lee

<< Don't know if I should take them to an allo vet or what. They seem fine otherwise.  And their noses are just a little runny...>>

I don't know about the L-Lysine either for kittens, but Diane Stein recommends Dr Wendell Belfield's protocol for pre-weaned kittens who can "receive vitamin C pediatric drops. (1-5 days use 20 mg.; 5-10 days, 35 mg; and to weaning, 65 mg."

You might also try putting  a tiny bit of digestive enzymes (Prozyme, Unleash, Dr. Goodpet's)  in your kitten mix.  Goldstein (The Nature of Animal Healing)says this is helpful.

You can also gently clean their noses with lukewarm, purified water. (Use a separate cloth for each kitten.)

I hope your vet gets back to you!

I have had the best luck with a formula a lady sent me from another list. I have never had much success with the boughten stuff from the vets, either gives them diarrhea or constipates them. Here is the formula, you can leave out the mayo. if need be.

• 1 can full evaporated milk (12oz/354 grams)
• 1 can boiling water (same sized can) I use bottle water
• 1 pkt Knox gelatin (84 grams)
• 2 tablespoons Mayonnaise (not miracle whip)
• 2 tablespoons raw yogurt (plain is ok, raw is better)

• Add 1/2 can of evaporated milk, mix well.
• Add mayonnaise and yogurt, mix well
• Add remainder of milk, mix well.

Linda

Sometimes the kitten nursing formulas are too rich for newborns and it causes diarrhea.  Two "fixes" for the problem -- mix the formula a little thinner (try using unflavored Pedialyte instead of water - added advantage of replacing electrolytes lost to the runny stools) and add just a spoonful of plain, lowfat (not no-fat) YOGURT to the formula -- it contains acidophilus in its natural form.

Good luck,
Valere

Hi Debbie,

At least you only have two.  I had five of them two years ago.  Yes, take them away from their Mom now while you can catch them and before she takes them away.  She will move them every time the den gets dirty.  And you may not be able to find them next time she moves them.  You are lucky because they will have each other for comfort and they will get used to you after awhile and stop hissing at you, especially when they figure out you are the one who feeds them.  I had mine after they were about four weeks old.  From past experience I knew that if I waited any longer to take them in the feral Mom would move them and I would never see them again and who knows what would happen to them, but their chances of surviving when that little are pretty bad.

They will probably be covered in fleas so you might have to get the flea comb out and get as many fleas as you can off of them.  The feral cat coalition came to my house and really helped me with mine, by showing me what to feed them and they gave them a bath for the fleas and medicine and everything!  Mine also had yucky crusty eyes, the feral cat coalition brought me an ointment  to use and I also used a boric acid wash that cleared up their eyes right away.  I know it looks bad.  I wanted to take my five to the Vet as I was convinced they would die from the eye infection, but the cost was going to be prohibitive and my neighbors told me to try the boric acid wash and it cleared it up pretty quick.  I tried to bottle feed them but they wouldn't take the bottle and they really took to the mush like food mixture I made and lapped it up all gone!

You have other cats to help socialize these ferals?  That would be helpful in teaching them how to wash themselves and use the litter box.  When I went to work I would put them all in the bathroom with a cat carrier with the door tied open and the food tray secured on the open door.  I put water in half of the food tray and a mixture of kitten formula and ground
up dry kitten food in the other half.  I filled a little cookie sheet with litter and put it in the corner of the bathroom by the toilet in case they decided to use it.  They were so cute and good and I loved every minute of fostering them.  My advice to you is to take pictures because you won't believe how fast they grow!  And they love to play!  I would put a sheet down on the living room carpet and just put boxes all around and they would play for hours on those boxes and the sheet caught any accidents.  I can hardly believe there was a time when they were so small  that I could watch them all on a sheet in the living room and not worry about them getting into everything.  They couldn't even jump up on the couch at that time.  After they got too big for the bathroom I kept them in our extra bedroom with the door closed when I was at work and at night.  I also have two dogs.  I thought it was interesting that the kittens took to the dogs rights away.  The kittens wanted to nurse on the dogs, but the dogs wouldn't have anything to do with the kittens.

The feral cat coalition helped me trap the Mom and I took her to my Vet to get fixed.  She would not however stay with the five kittens after we had trapped her.  Now two years later I have kept two of the five and they are my indoor cats and their Mom (still feral) sleeps outside of my backdoor in the same cat carrier I raised her kittens in, with the door removed, and she scratches on the screen door if I don't feed her on time when I feed her kids.  She still doesn't let me pet her but she doesn't run away every time she sees me anymore.  She will come into the kitchen to butt heads with her kids but they don't seem to know what to make of her.

Good luck.  I hope you can catch the little ones and get them started on a healthy, loving life - don't forget to get them fixed when the time comes!  I figure that my feral cat had four litters of six cats each in two years in my backyard before I finally got smart and asked for help and got her fixed.  I only saved six of those 24 kittens and wonder what happened to the other 18.

Let me know if you need any help.
jane@

<<Good morning everyone,

Well, about a month ago I had posted that one of my ferals had kittens. Since that time, I thought that they had probably died because I never heard them under the house again, and also because the mother was so young, I thought she might have not been able to handle them.  I was wrong!  Last night when I got home from work I went out back to water my flowers and  there they were.  >>
 

Try using a boric acid eye wash on the kittens.  I had the same trouble and my neighbor suggested boric acid and it worked quite well.  You can get boric acid at the grocery store, just dilute some with water, warm it up and wash their eyes with it.  You can store the solution in the refrigerator for a few days, but I made a new batch everytime I washed their eyes.

Jane

<<I have 3 week old kittens that have very weepy eyes.  No crusting or irritation and the eyes are completely open - just looks like they have been crying!  No sniffles either.  Do I need to be concerned?>>

At 07:42 PM 6/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
<<I need to stop going to that d*mn animal shelter! I swung by to pick up paperwork for my current mom and kitten fosters, and end up leaving with two more kittens! >>

Megan, do you live in TX?  If I thought the OK City shelter would let people foster out of state the storm kitties, I would invite you up here - they really need some loving homes!!

<<I am going to bathe them tonight. I just purchased a new shampoo that I have heard is good- a natural human shampoo from the health food store- Dr. Bronner's eucalyptus soap. I'm hoping this will be ok to use on the little girls.>>

I just hope the eucalyptus is made from an herbal oil and not essential oil, but Dr. Bronner's soaps are great usually!  Most kinds of soap, even mild ones, will kill fleas if you can leave the lather on for about five minutes.  I have an herbal rosemary rinse that I use too that insects don't like.

<<Any other thoughts, ideas,(scoldings!) etc greatly appreciated!>>

I think you have the supplements pretty well covered.  If they gave some ear mite meds you may want to keep a handle on that - sometimes it takes a while to completely rid them of that.  My Giddy kitty had some when I first adopted him.

In a message dated 6/4/99 5:55:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, stelling@writes:
<< a natural human  shampoo from the health food store- Dr. Bronner's  eucalyptus soap. I'm hoping this will be ok to use on
 the little girls. >>

Well, I really don't know much about this stuff, but I would hesitate if it's  got essential oils in it.  Is it ok for use on human babies?  I just worry  that the eucaluptus will be too strong for baby kittens.  I definitely  wouldn't use a regular flea soap for cats, tho, as these are usually too  strong for kittens, unless they say right on them that they're ok.  I would  use something that is extremely easy to rinse out so there is no soap residue left on the fur for them to ingest (which is why flea shampoos are dangerous
for little babies).

I bet I sound like I've become an alarmist by my recent posts about kittens.  I'm not really, I just think little ones are very delicate.  If someone else knows about this shampoo, or something ok to use, please suggest it!  Holding them in soapy water will kill the fleas - I keep a pair of tweazers handy to squeeze them to death (not pretty, but those dang shells are so HARD!) if
they aren't quite dead yet.