Following are selected posts to the Holisticat (TM) Mailing List on the subject of milk thistle. There's a lot of information here, and the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utilize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!

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Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 19:47:29 -0800
From: "Sandy A"

wordlady@ wrote:
<< Saski is still taking Diltiazem for his cardiomyopathy, and I've just found  out that, among many side effects, it can cause severe liver damage.  I'm  thinking of giving him milk thistle to counteract this. Any comments on  advisability, dosage and method of giving it?>>

Jean, Booey was prescribed Cardizem [Ed note: yes] for his HCM.  Is this the same drug or diff?  I was so alarmed when I went to pick it up at the pharmacy cuz it's side effects were - irregular heartbeat and kidney failure!!!  I had a cow, man!  Cuz those were Booey's symptoms to beging w/..arghhh.

IMNSHO, it's a safe bet to assume any allo drug is gonna be excreted by the liver and/or the kidney.  So anytime I use an allo drug, like Norvasc for Booey's hi BP, I give Milk Thistle.  Go ahead and give it to Saski; u can alternate it w/ Burdock Root or Dandelion Root if u don't wanna give 1 herb all the time.

Oh u asked earlier about the Diltiazem..all's I know is Booey was prescribed 60mg of Cardizem daily.  I haven't given him any at all.

Sometime back u asked about L-Carnitine, and I can't remember if anyone responded.  I give Booey 250mg a day (1 capsule from Puritan's Pride) along w/ the 30mg of CoQ10.  I read someplace that they work synergistically.

Any progress on Saski's poopie problem?  I am at an impasse w/ Bunny's homeo remedy..not a single one matches mainly cuz I have only 2 symptoms to go on..poor Queen Mum!

Purrs and headbutts:)
Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

Hi all

Sandy, thanks for posting this. It's truly important, not only for our kitties, but for ourselves, that we know the actions of the drugs and herbs we take. One other example is not to take Gingko if you use aspirin, as the combination can cause eye problems and internal bleeding.

Jean, Milk thistle is an excellent liver protector. Michael Murray says it works as a powerful antioxidant that prevents free radical damage. Silymarin, the active ingredient, "increases the glutathione (GSH) content of the liver, which is responsible for detoxifying a wide range of hormones, drugs and chemicals. Increasing the GSH content of the liver means that the liver has an increased capacity for detoxification reactions." Silymarin also inhibits the enzyme lipoxygenase and thus inhibits the formation of damaging leukotrienes. "Free radical damage to membrane structures due to organic disease or toxic chemicals results in an increased release of fatty acids. This leads, among other things, to increased leukotriene synthesis and inflammation. Silymarin counteracts this deleterious process by suppressing the pathological decomposition of membrane lipids and inhibiting leukotriene formation and inflammation....Perhaps the most interesting effect of  milk thistle components on the liver is their ability to stimulate protein synthesis. This stimulation results in an increase in the production of new liver cells to replace the damaged old ones."

Keep in mind that it's best NOT to use alcohol based milk thistle, as the best results are achieved at higher doses, and that would mean ingestion of too much alcohol. The dried forms are preferred. Long term use is fine, even at high doses. But, Murray also says that silymarin may produce looser stools at high doses, and it may be useful to use "bile-sequestering fiber compounds" such as guar gum, pectin, psyllium and oat bran "to prevent mucosal irritation and loose stools."

Does that help?

Take care
Kathy and the therapeutic cats

<<Long term use is fine, even at high doses.>>

I guess I have a little different opinion than most on herb use.  If I'm using herbs, I like to use them for a period of days and then give it a rest for a few days. The other suggestion made to alternate with a different herb would be helpful also, I think.

<< But, Murray also says that silymarin may produce looser stools at high doses, >>

I have a booklet for herbal use in animals and it also says that excessive use may slow liver functions.

Leah
lknipp@

You're right, here:

It is best not to use alcohol based extracts, especially for our cats.  HOWever, with Milk Thistle, it HAS to be extracted in alcohol, otherwise you're not getting any of the silymarin(the active constituent)in the extract. We have spoken to chemists and herbalists, and they all agree on this. Milk Thistle must have at LEAST 40% alcohol to have the silymarin in it. AND,to be able to extract it, it takes 70% alcohol(then it can be cut Down to 40%). If the company says otherwise, then, they're not telling the whole truth.

Some companies say they use a "cold extraction" process...this is where the milk thistle is extracted in alcohol, then the alcohol is evaporated off, but what is left does not have enough silymarin in it to be any good therapeutically. When the alcohol is evaporated off, the silymarin goes with it. (Tricky stuff). Also, if it is a standardized extract, and if it does Not say that it is
'hexane free', then it will contain the toxic hexane.

So, we make ours the "old fashioned" way, and yes, it contains some(about 40%)grain alcohol.

Mary Wulff-Tilford, DIHom; Professional Herbalist,A.H.G.

 From: " Peggy" <Peggy.W@
<< Ack!!!! I've been using the glycerin-base milk thistle for Hester. So  it's been useless? And since I'm using it daily the alcohol-based one is  inappropriate, too? Does that mean I need to start brewing it?>>

Hi Peggy

what company's is it? if it is ours, then it has 40% alcohol in it---if it is "someone" elses, then, who knows...call the company and ask how it was made. Brewing it won't work either, the silymarin is lost....sigh.
--
Mary Wulff-Tilford, DIHom; Professional Herbalist,A.H.G.

in other words, buy it from us....we make it the "old fashioned" way,...and it is mostly glycerin, but has silymarin in it, because it is
still extracted in alcohol. Ours can still be "cut"in water, if your kitty doesn't like it.

Mary Wulff-Tilford, DIHom; Professional Herbalist,A.H.G.

Mary writes:
<< Also, if it is a standardized extract, and if it does Not say that it is  'hexane free', then it will contain the toxic hexane.  >>

Hi Mary & List ~

Thank you so much for your excellent details about Silymarin/Milk Thistle!  I have a question & my $.02..... Question:  when you say *standardizeda extract* are you talking about capsules?  I've been taking Milk Thistle for about 5 years (for Hep C), and have used several different brands - I note that my current brand of capsules says standardized extract & says nothing about hexane free!!!  <gulp>.  It's cheaper than the one I used to take but I'll definitely switch back if necessary!

My $.02 - I've had Hep C for over 20 years, was told to expect it all my life. HOWEVER, after 5 years of taking Milk Thistle, my liver enzymes have steadily returned closer to normal and they are now within the normal range!!!  I usually take M.T. capsules, with alcohol based extract  as an occasional add- on.   I started with larger doses (1000-1500 mg/day) & now take 500 mg/day,
and have done so nearly every day for the past 5years.   At times,  when I ran out & didn't take any for a couple of weeks, I would notice my energy dropping along with other liver symptoms that my body is highly tuned to notice.   So my feeling is that this is an essential herb for liver damage & daily doses are fine.   Personal opinion only....I'm certainly not a doctor or an herbalist, but I've found a lot of people with Hep C who  know a great deal more about what their livers need than their doctors do!

Jillian (who has learned a lot about her own health through this list!) and Django (who will hopefully never know what a bad diet can do to him)

Hi Jillian and List

I am so glad to hear that your liver enzymes have gotten better after using MT!!!

"Standardized" means standardized to a certain percentage of the "active constituent"---in this case, silymarin. And it should say so on the container(standardized to ___% silymarin),or whatever, whether it is a liquid or a capsule. Most herbalists are mainly against "standardization", because it is another way of saying, that this is a 'phytopharmaceutical'...no longer an herb. The herb is the WHOLE plant. Most times the whole plant is greater than the sum of its parts:<)

Standardization is a whole other world that the pharmaceutical companies have of gaining "control" of the herbal world. But, we can still go out and pick/grow our own.

If the company doesn't say it's hexane free, then call them and ask them exactly how they make their product and what it might contain that's not on the label.

Mary Wulff-Tilford, DIHom; Professional Herbalist,A.H.G.

Dr. Basko told me to carry AyuVet products. Has anyone use these products ? He said their liver tonic is good. Well, but he is an oriental medicine man. I've never heard him prescribe western herb.

Mary, How about if you hold the bottle over the steam to take the alcohol out?

-- Yumi G

Milk Thistle does not generally cause any problems or side effects when used continuously over a long term in animals or people. However, some herbalists theorize that the herb may actually slow liver function somewhat if used continuously in a HEALTHY liver. It's our opinion that this herb is best reserved for circumstances where the liver is under ongoing stress or is already damaged. In other words, using MT as a preventative *probably* won't lead to any problems, but such use is generally a waste.

We feel it's best to occasionally give the body a break from using herbs on a daily basis. This allows the body to reestablish homeostasis without outside interference and enables the practitioner to monitor therapeutic progress. It's important to remember that the focus of tonic herbal therapies is to assist the body in reestablishing its own state of balanced health.

Leah
lknipp@

Kathy B wrote:
 <<Is there any point at all to using Milk Thistle  then, if it works best at high doses, and if it has to be made with alcohol?  How on earth do the studies that Michael Murray cites have any success? Wouldn't the alcohol counteract the benefits?>>

Hi Kathy and List

I have heard somewhere, that the alcohol in a few drops of tincture, or even a dropperful, is equal to that of a ripe banana. However, I have nothing to back this up with, it seems that the amount of alcohol in the tincture isn't going to be a problem, unless the person(or animal!?)is an alcoholic and actually cannot handle the alcohol at all. It would still be a good idea to dilute the alcohol tincture before using it, especially in our kitties. OR, use the lower alcohol extracts, or glycerites, and you'll still get the silymarin.
--
Mary Wulff-Tilford, DIHom; Professional Herbalist,A.H.G.

Hi everyone,

Hi Anita, Welcome to the list.  There is a short article on Cholangitis/Cholangiohepatitis Complex in my copy of The Cornell Book of Cats, 1997 (traditional medicine).  If you would like me to type it up for you, please let me know privately as my server doesn't post the original sender's address :( (There is also a short discussion about bilirubin as it relates to liver disease, which I could also pass along.)

The following is some herbal info for chronic hepatitis and cirrhosis from _Four Paws, Five Directions: A Guide to Chinese Medicine for Cats and Dogs_ by Cheryl Schwartz, pp.261-62.  I hope some of the info is useful for your little guy Max.

Milk Thistle.  This Western herb clears dampness and promotes bile flow.  It is especially useful in the stages of jaundice where there is a light yellow color.  The herb helps protect the cell walls of the liver to avoid toxic substances from entering and is also useful in chronic situations.  It can be found in natural food stores as the nutritional supplement silymarin.  Both the fruit and seeds of the plant are used.

• As a tincture, dilute 20 drops in one ounce distilled water. Boil off the excess alcohol by heating the dilution without its cover for 3 minutes over boiling water.
• Dosage: cats/small dogs: 1 dropperful, twice daily

• As a tincture, dilute 15 drops to one ounce distilled water.
• Dosage: cats/ small dogs: 1 dropperful, once daily

• As a tincture, dilute 15 drops to 1 ounce of distilled water.
• Dosage: cats/small dogs: 1 dropperful, once or twice daily.

• As tinctures, dilute 10 drops each of dandelion and burdock plus 1 drop agrimony in one ounce distilled water.
• Dosage: cats/small dogs: 1 dropperful per day

Susan

Hi Kidz,

The other day we were discussing Milk Thistle.  Since I knew that Animals' Apawthecary used MT in some of their products I decided to write to Mary and get the scoop.  Below is what Greg Tilford has to say.  Got permission to post his response to the list, BTW.

<< At the Holistic Expo, Greg Tillford said Milk Thistle should only be used in cats/people who have compromised livers, and that it could be harmful for  healthy people.  I think this info is also in their article in Natural Cat.>>

Hi Judy
What I Probably said at the holistic expo is that Milk Thistle is best used in people or animals with pre-existing liver damage or during a crisis that threatens possible liver damage. Milk Thistle is a VERY safe herb, but in  THEORY, it might slow liver function in a healthy liver, if used continuously,  by ITSELF, in therapeutic sized doses. In other words, when used by itself as  a singular therapy it has little or no purpose as a preventative herb. In Senior Blend, Milk Thistle is combined with Dandelion and Garlic,
both which support and strengthen liver function. It's purpose in this formula is to provide a small measure of anti-oxidant protection to the liver cells. There's not enough Milk Thistle in this formula, when used daily, to cause any liver problems.

Please note that my concerns about the overuse of Milk Thistle stems from the recognition that many people are using this herb as some sort of preventative "silver bullet", when in reality they are simply wasting Milk Thistle. The theory that Milk Thistle might slow liver function is shared only between myself and a few other herbalists.There is no scientific evidence to support this theory.

Sincerely,
Greg Tilford