Following are selected posts to the Holisticat (TM) Mailing List on the subject of mouth, teeth and gum problems. There's a lot of information here, and the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utilize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!

Happy hunting :)

<12 June 98 From: Sandy A. Re: Emily's teeth cleaning>

I can understand why u would wanna go ahead w/ the 2nd  vaccination for your little one.  I am quite convinced about not needing boosters but am not so cavalier about  initial vacs (yet) so in your situation, I might have done the same.  There are many cats who don't have any negative reactions to vaccs, right?

About Emily your 9 yr old cat w/ gingivitis, sorry to be a buttinski but I have to say this and get it off my chest. Please make sure the vet does a CBC prior to anesthetizing your little girl.  The anestesia despite what vets say is excreted thru the kidneys among other organs, and if the kidneys are in any way compromised, it can be very dangerous for the kitty.

My personal preference would be to have teeth cleaning done w/o anesthesia.  Where do u live?  In L.A. we have various places that perform this procedure, and I am very happy w/ the results for Bunny and Boo (both over 8 yrs old)

I also have a theory about teeth cleaning and CRF but I won't bore everyone w/ the details.  Suffice it to say that my cat Tasha had perfect kidney values prior to surgery and teeth cleaning but less than 1 month later, her BUN was over 200 and Creat 20.  She died 5 weeks later:((  There are many cats on the CRF list who also developed CRF after teeth cleaning; could be a coinkydink but..

If u don't have access to anesthesia-free teeth cleaning, then u don't really have a choice cuz icky teeth and gums are bad for the heart etc. so u may have to go w/ anesthesia.  At any rate, every cat should have a CBC after age 7 or so to check kidney function etc.

I have absolutely no proof of the connection between teeth cleaning and CRF.  I have a hunch it has more to do w/ the
anesthesia.  My cat was totally healthy w/ perfect CBC, and then her kidneys just failed so much so that I could not even maintain her kidney function:(

My husband and I have been gathering some preliminary data to write a paper on this but other stuff keeps taking our time away from it.  I want to see if there is a definitive link between CRF and *anything*, really.  It's my life's mission to understand this disease so we can help the human companions of cats prevent this disease in their little ones.

I was told that isofluorane gas doesn't last very long in the kidneys before it is excreted.  And really, every medicine we give our cats is processed by the liver and kidneys.  Hey, if the Maharishi Univ is not far from you, I'd check out that town.  There is a good holistic vet in Fairfield I was told.

I think some allo vets do teeth cleaning w/o anesthesia too but u may have to press them since most vets are so blase about anesthesia.  I know thousands of cats undergo various procedures every day w/o any problems so I shouldn't worry so much but when it came time to have Bunny's teeth cleaned, I chickened out and couldn't put her under.  Fortunately, this woman who cleaned her teeth using an ultrasonic scaler and polisher did a fantastic job; even Bunny's allo vet was amazed. She thought I had it done by another allo vet under anesthesia and was giving me attitude b/c of that..LOL!  Bunny and Boo won't chew on
necks so I'm looking at having this procedure done every 9 - 12 months.  My younger cats have white teeth w/ no tartar cuz they chew on necks and wings.

Bottom line, if Emily's kidneys are fine, and putting her under is the only option, then perhaps u can give her homeopathic Phos 6C after the anesthesia to help her body throw off the negative effects of the anesthetic.  U gotta do what u can so don't let my paranoia get to you.  Emily will be fine w/ her sparkling toofers:)

<<I have absolutely no proof of the connection between teeth cleaning and CRF.  I have a hunch it has more to do w/ the
anesthesia.  >>

I'm sure the anesthesia effects the kidneys!  Maybe not too much for real healthy kidneys, but kidneys that are a little less than 100%, would be effected more so.

Mau, Sneekers, and Rudy (Rudy multiple times) had their teethies cleaned.  None of them had kidney disease.  Rudy's still alive, so who knows what is in the future.  Sammy never had his teeth cleaned until after he was diagnosed with kidney disease.

Rudy and Sammy have a vet appt. this Wednesday.  I'm a nervous wreck.

I was just glancing through my allopathic "Caring for Your Older Cat" by Chris Pinney, DVM. In his little blurb on anaesthesia, he says, "the majority of this agent is expelled from the lungs once administration of the gas is ceased. As a result, recovery from isoflurane is usually swift and uneventful. It is certainly the safest agent to use in older cats, especially those with preexisting medical conditions, including heart, liver and kidney disease. Be sure to request it anytime your pet must undergo anesthesia for dental work or any type of major surgery."

I don't know if this helps any, as all anesthetic is risky. I hope Boo's okay.

On Thu, 6 Aug 1998, Yumi wrote:

<< I believe that all vet schools are founded by Hills or Science, and if the  teachers don't tell their students to use those products, they will lose the  funding. I have not confirm this. But I strongly think so.>>

OK, I have been quiet lately (and not answering most private emails  either) because I think I am developing a touch of
carpel tunnel (serves me right!), but I must comment on this.

Hills does not 'fund' vet schools.  Some corporations do fund individual research projects at various (not all) schools, and food companies may be some of those funding bodies.  And we need to wake up - much of our scientific research in medical schools is being funded by drug companies, because there is less and less money available from the NIH.  But back to food companies and vet schools.  The only clear indication of support from a food company in my nutrition class was a textbook put together by Purina.  It was very non-commercial,a nd there was absolutely NO hint thatPurina was the best food, etc etc.

Iams, and perhaps other food companies, do have 'student representatives' in the classes.  I don't really know what their function is besides being a liaison between the students and the major food companies.  I do think students get a deal on some of the major foods (including Precise, at least a few years ago).  The Iams student rep actually arranged for the comapny to sponsor a talk on holistic medicine (from me), so there is no animosity here.

So the influence is there, but is not direct and not concentrated on one company.

<<But why not many American vets wants to study nutrition on their own? I don't  know. .. It's sad.>>

American vets feel they *have* studied nutrition.  They know the problems that animals had before the food companies 'figured out' complete nutrition.  Now that animals no longer have those horrible deficiencies, they think that the diseases they see now are not food related.  This will be  another of  those 'changing paradigm' things - veterinarians are going to have to learn that animals have diseases of imbalance and excess that are yet undefined - a subtle lesson.

Susan G. Wynn, DVM

It's ok, you can come to LA; we like to share our smog w/  everyone:))  This yr it's particularly good <blecch>

For teeth cleaning, check at local "feed" stores or the  smaller independent pet food stores.  That's where I found Nona's card.  Or even at the more eclectic pet boutiqies  (so help me God, that's what they call them in LaLa land..sheesh!).  Ask around at local stores cuz sometimes the cards aren't in plain view...maybe you'll see something on Bulletin Boards at local HFS.

I think tartar can cause major bacteria to enter the bloodstream and the heart for sure is affected; dunno about other organs.  If u think Syd and Kirby's teeth aren't in tip-top shape, give them some CoQ10.  Maybe a small dose, like 10mg a day..can't hurt and can only help the heart and gums.

FWIW, Dr. Michael Wolf in his book "Your Healthy Cat", recommends daily (uh-oh) dosing of homeopathic Fragaria to prevent "the buildup of calculus" on the teeth.

Good luck w/ Syd and Kirby.  I assume they don't like necks, huh?  I've got 2 like that <sigh>

Sorry, I pasted in the wrong URL in my last post re gingivitis & Dr. Lonsdale. :-) It should have been http://www.zeta.org.au/~lonsdale/PrevDent.html

Peggy wrote:
<<I'm starting the cats on CoQ10, mainly for Hester's gingivitis. My vet  suggested 30 mg once a day, because he said even if it's too much it's  just urinated out.>>

That's what Booey has been on since April of 97 but dunno if that's a minimum or a standard dose.  Dr. Weil recommends a really large amount for humans w/ Congestive heart failure so i feel ok w. Booey's dosage.  But for ginigivitis, don't see why u couldn't give less.

I don't have any data to back up any of my hypotheses up other than casual empiricism, ok so take all my thoughts w/ a huge grain of salt.

Here's what happened w/ Tasha.  One day she was fine; the next, we found a bit of blood on her butt fur so we took her in to the vet.  To make a long story short, the vet said she needed to be stitched up a bit (no idea what caused the scratch), and other than that she was fine.  Her CBC #s were all 100% normal.  I told the vet since Tasha will have to be put under anyway, why not clean her teeth while we're at it.

So Tasha had her teeth cleaned and was ok for about 5-6 days. Then all of a sudden, she crashed - quit eating and didn't groom herself.  We took her back in and the vet gave her subqs but could find nothing wrong w/ her.  After that, things were never the same.  She would eat ok one day, then she would slow down again.  We kept taking her back to the vet who said she could find nothing wrong.  She never once even hinted that the kidneys could be affected.

This went on for about 2 weeks or so, of which Tasha spent 7 at the vet's.  Then one nite after we brought her back, she looked as if she wasn't going to last the nite.  I kick myself now for not seeing the signs but at the time, I had no idea what was going on:((  We took her to the emergency hospital and her BUN was so hi, it didn't even register.  The vet said Tasha had lost over 95% of her kidney function.  She lived about 5 weeks after that.

So, truth of the matter is I simply don't know what happened and neither do any of the vets who saw Tasha.  Her BUN and creat went from normal to off the charts in about 3 weeks or so.  All I know is she was fine before her surgery and teeth cleaning.  So it could be that something went wrong w/ the surgery tho upon examination, her stitches were healed perfectly, and there was no sign of infection or abscess.

Or my theory is that it has something to do w/ the combination of teeth cleaning and anesthesia.  It sounds totally off-the-wall and I can't prove it but a lot of people independently voiced this thought on the CRF list when it first started up.  At that point, I asked for people to write to me if they had noticed any connection at all between their cats suddenly not eating, and developing CRF symptoms and teeth cleaning.  I got many responses (about 25-30% of the list membership at the time) but didn't take the time to do a proper survey and write an article on it.  I doubt if John and I could publish in a vet journal anyway not being vets and all but it was something I really was interested in, and still am for that matter. I am busy writing a paper on investment clubs right now so I don't have the time or I would.

Having said all this, I would never ever dissuade anyone from having their cats' teeth cleaned b/c I know the bacteria from the tartar etc. can cause major heart problems among other things.  So it is imperative that a cat's teeth be clean.  How this is accomplished is another thing tho.  I've heard vets say that after a cat's teeth are cleaned, the bacteria can go into their system and slow 'em down for a little while.  Or another logical explanation is the one Judy provided - sore gums.

But neither of those seemed to be the case w/ Tasha and the many cats whose parents wrote to me from the CRF list.  At this point, my response is to get Bunny's teeth cleaned w/o anesthesia.  The woman uses an ultrasonic scaler, and cleans under the gums quite thoroughly.   But this isn't available to everyone.  I have to drive Bunny and Boo about 3.5 hrs RT to get this done cuz no one here does this.

Incidentally, Sharon and all, remember someone had told me about the scaler causing problems for cats?  Well I asked my dentist and she said it was a bunch of hoeey, and that the scaler cleans the teeth very well.  So when I went in for my last teeth cleaning, she used it on me, and I must say it is really good.  My teeth and gums felt really good afterwards, as did Bunny's after her cleaning (even her allo vet asked me if I had taken Bunny to a diff vet to have her teeth cleaned <g>)  Before that she had given me a lecture about how only a vet could clean teeth properly esp under the gums.  Wonder how crow tastes! <chuckle>

If u can't find a place that does anesthesia-free cleaning, and your kitty won't eat chicken necks (like Bunny), then all I can say is to make sure kitty gets subqs during the procedure and to be extra vigilant afterwards.  After all, many kitties get their teeth cleaned w/o any problems so there might be something else going on w/ cats like tasha who develop CRF.

I asked my allo boss about this, and he said that one of the more common kitty sedatives (ketamine--used before hooking them up to the gas anesthesia) is rather hard on the kidneys.  He felt that in Mahogany's case, her kidneys were probably already failing, and that the added stress from the sedative might have pushed her over the edge

I found this excerpt in an article I have on chemical restraint: Compendium for Continuing Education Restraint Methods for Radiography in Dogs and Cats Aug 1996

" The dissociogenic drugs ketamine and tiletamine induce excellent immobilization and provide superficial analgesia. Rigidity of the extremities is produced because of poor muscle relaxation. Such effects as hallucinations, confusion, agitation, and fear have been described by human patients who have received these drugs; similar effects apparently occur in animals. Ketamine or tiletamine should be used only cautiously in patients with severe liver disease. Cats eliminate at least some ketamine  unchanged in urine. This agent should therefore be used cautiously if a cat has renal disease. "

I think that part of the risk lies in accurately diagnosing renal disease too...from what I understand, up to 2/3 of the kidney function can be lost before any clinical signs are noted in the kitty.  If you are at all worried, ask your vet about any potential for kidney damage with whatever sedative combo they administer, and about using isoflurane as the gas anesthetic (there is less cardiac depression and potential for damage to the liver with this than with halothane), and ask about doing a small blood
panel before the anesthesia.  This will make the whole procedure more expensive, but I'd say it is definitely worth it.  Lemme know if you have any other questions, I'd be happy to ask.

What sort of anesthesia did the vet use to clean Tasha's teeth?  One of  the vets I worked for used Halothane, unless it was a kitten or a very  old cat.  Then he used Isoflurane.  Iso is approved for use in humans, halothane isn't.  Halothane goes into the fat and stays there for days, they don't come around as fast as with Iso.  On the other hand, all of the gases have their problems.  If Tasha was older, kidney problems could have resulted from the gas, whichever was used.  I'm just wondering why
the vet didn't think of this.  Aside from gas, the only other warning I was given when learning dentals was not to hold the scaler in one place for too long, to keep moving with it.  It seems it can burn.

I have a scraper that I got through the Jeffers catalog (1-800-jeffers).  If I only get one tooth at a time, the fact is I'm getting the tartar off, and that's the big nasty here.  Standard disclaimers about the Jeffers company.

Nature’s Toothbrush

Imagine this scenario. You are at your dentist’s office for your annual dental check-up and cleaning. When he’s through with the cleaning, he gives you a sample of a new product called T/D Cookies. “Start eating these cookies after every meal to help cut down on tarter.” He says. Would you go for this? Probably not. What if you were unable to brush and massage your gums on a daily basis? Think of how your mouth would  feel. Would you rely on granola and pretzels to clean your teeth?

I find it hard to believe any dehydrated food product such as dry cat food can clean teeth. I watch how my cats eat their chunks of food and bone. They turn their heads to the side and use their premolars and molars to cut or slice the food, then they swallow it. They don’t chew for an extended period of time like an herbivore would. How in the world is a food like Hill’s T/D (tarter control formula) or the like supposed to clean teeth if it’s not thoroughly chewed? What about massaging the gums?

Cats, when eating their natural prey, cut or tear their food into manageable chunks, then swallow the chunks whole. It’s the cutting, slicing and tearing that will clean teeth, not crunching on cereal. In fact, the processed carbohydrates in dry cat food may actually be causing the food to stick to a cat’s teeth a bit like white bread.

Are we left with having to brush our cats’ teeth daily to keep their mouths healthy? I can just see my seven cats lining up at the bathroom door every morning to have their teeth brushed. Right! There is an easier way.

First, if you insist on continuing to feed dry food, feed on a schedule (preferably once a day for adults [pregnant and lactating females more frequently]) and remove any uneaten food after approximately 30 minutes.

Next, add some RAW bone such as chicken necks and backs or wings to your cats’ diets. Note.  I said RAW. Do not feed cooked bone, COOKED bone splinters. Raw bone does not. Nothing cleans a cat’s teeth better than raw bone. If your cats won’t eat bone (and some won’t right away, be persistent) try feeding large (mouse-size) chunks of meat (shredded or ground meat like that sold by Blue Ridge Foods isn’t going to do it [don’t stop feeding this meat, just add in bone]). If you’ve put your cats on a feeding schedule, they will be hungry at dinner time and less likely to turn their noses up at chicken wings or other bone. Offer the bone first, then feed your commercial food.

Catch your kittens when they are first cutting teeth and wanting to chew. That’s when gingivitis can first set in. The kitten teeth fall out and the adult teeth come into a mouth that’s already unhealthy. Let them chew on bone and learn at an early age. Help them to have a healthy mouth early on.

A chicken wing a day keeps the dentist away. Chicken wings are much cheaper than paying for dental work. Much less stress on your cat too.

 Feeding a raw homemade diet is the optimum way to keep your cats healthy inside and out.

Michelle
BLAKKATZ Cattery

Odila wrote:
<<My  12months  Birman has his gums redish  and bad breath, the vet prescribed Stomalys for 10 days . I've finished resding a post Stella's guns and want to try anything more natural, as I live in Brazil  is not easy to find the products and I don't kwow what you mean by CoQ10, for instance. Is it a suplement or what?>>

Odila, CoQ10 is short for Coenzyme Q10, also known as "ubiquinone", and it is a supplement. "It is a cofactor in the electron transport chain, the biochemical pathway from which metabolic energy is derived" - or, in my unscientific terms, it helps the body make energy available to the cells. It's used in cardiovascular disease such as angina and cardiomyopathy; it's also used to help diabetics metabolize carbohydrates better, to improve the gums in periodontal disease, as an immune stimulant, and to aid weight loss. Small dogs and cats can use from 10mg to 30mg a day.

My information is that it works best when administered with fat or oil, and there are soft gelcaps available that have the CoQ10 mixed with oil right in them. Someone's vet cardiologist (sorry, can't remember who!) recommended the CoQ10-oil mix as being best. However, it's harder to find and it's more expensive. My source is a Canadian company which probably isn't available to you...

Others on the list use powdered crystals (available on the Net at http://www.ashapharma.com). Also you can get gelcaps containing CoQ10 in a powder - but you have to be careful with those because the quality varies a lot. Dr. Jeff Feinman - http://www.homevet.net - sells some form of CoQ10 but I don't know anything about the quality. And I bet our own Yumi or
Elaine sell them? BTW, no commercial interest in any of these sites/companies.

I give CoQ10 to my Saski for his cardiomyopathy, 30mg a day, and I'm sure it's been a lifesaver. Maybe 10mg a day would be better for gum disease, though - but I don't really know! Hope this helps you and Birman, Odila.