Following are selected posts to the Holisticat (TM) Mailing List on the subject of raw diets for cats. There's a lot of information here, and the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utilize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu! For additional info, you may want to check out the diet archive.

Happy hunting :)

<23 Jul 1998 From Randall Re  Michelle's questions>
> > 1.  Can chicken livers be mixed with the ground beef raw or do they
>  > have to be cooked?
>  >

>  Raw, raw! Everything raw! Some purists (such as Pat McKay) say that meat
>  from different animals shouldn't be mixed, but I think that's too much
>  trouble.

Pardon my jumping in here but I'm new and just trying this raw stuff. Susan
let me know (thank you) that I need to watch out for chicken livers from
grocery stores because they are filled with antiobiotics, etc. So if I don't
have access to organic meats/fowl, then which foods from the grocery store may
I safely feed raw to my cat? At present, I am having to force feed him with a
puree.

Many thanks,
Randall & Tails

* * * * *

<29 Jul 1998 From Ann M Re safety of raw meat/greasy coat>
Hi Peggy and List:
Yep, I got there first Peg. (o;

Anyway, I have some info from Cornell and Purdue on Salmonella, E.-Coli and
Colibacillosis in the dog and cat.

>From Dr. Pete Bill, Associate Professor of Veterinary Pharmacology at
Perdue.  He quotes from "Infectious Diseases of Dogs and Cats", by Craig Green.

"This (Salmonella) was a major problem in the past because pets were fed
uncooked or unprocessed foods.  Meat and meat by-products, especially those
from contaminated horsemeat were the foods most commonly incriminated.
Isolation of Salmonella from infected animals has been most common from
swine, cattle, turkeys, and horses, in that order.  Raw or improperly cooked
cat food or dog food products prepared from these sources have a higher
prevalence of contamination than pelleted and heat-processed foods, which
are less likely to be infected because they are adequately sterilized during
preparation.  Supplementation of process foods with uncooked food scraps or
meat by-products is another common source of infection.".

Dr. Maurice White, Cornell University.

Give a list of references regarding feline infection with Salmonella etc..

MCDONOUGH PL. SIMPSON KW, diagnosing emerging bacterial infections:
salmonellosis, campylobacteriosis, clostridial toxicosis and
helicobacteriosis, sem vet med and surg. 1996;11:187-197

WALL PG ET AL. chronic carriage of multidrug resistant salmonell typhimurium
in a cat. j small animal pract 1995;36:279-281

DOW SW ET AL. clinical features of salmonellosis in cats: six cases
(1981-1986 javma 1989; 194:1464-1466

HOHENHAUS AE ET AL. concurrent lymphoma and salmonellosis in a cat. can vet
j 1990; 31:38-40

ABAAS S ET AL. cytotoxin activity on vero cells among escherichia coli
strains associated with diarrhea in cats. am j vet res 1989;50:1294-1296

I have more but they are just from vets in private practice. (o;
Gotta read all this stuff sometime.
Ann

* * * * *

<30 Jul 98 From Sandy A Re  raw food and supplements>
Hi Terri,
You asked Peggy about any problems w/ feeding only meat.  She and I have
a pretty similar philosophy so I'll jump in since she can't answer till
the morn.

We both grind the entire animal, usually a chicken, using either a manual
or electric grinder.  This way the cats don't simply eat the meat, but
the bones too.  I don't feel comfortable w/ bonemeal so I like to grind
bones instead.  I figure that's about as close to nature as I'm going to
get.

Peggy also gives her cats whole quail and cornish game hens.  Mine will
sometimes eat the game hens whole but they have to be really really
hungry.  So, I end up grinding those too, and give them chicken necks and
wings to chew on to clean the tartar off their teeth.

I used to add a few supplements (vit c, kelp, yeast etc.) but lately I've
been cutting back, big time.  I only add fish oil every once in a while.
I used to add Pitcairn's Healthy Powder (never did care for Frazier's
Vita-Mix) but don't any more b/c I suspect cats cannot utilize much that
isn't animal-based/derived.

I don't know for sure but I think it is the Iams website that says cats
can't use Niacin, and we know they can't use Beta Carotene so I worry
about either: a) causing extra stress on their system by giving them
stuff they have to work hard(er) to use, or b) at best, wasting all the
supplements they get.  I'm guessing it's the former b/c everything is
excreted by the liver and/or kidneys so why make them work harder?

I use organic veggies, meats, and grains so I figure other than something
to make up for the depleted soil from whence the grains, veggies, and
indirectly the meat come, my cats ideally shouldn't need much
supplementation.  I don't have the gumption to feed mice but do think
that would be ideal. Then I'd have even less qualms about not adding much
to my cats' diet.  I feel all their needs e.g. water, vitamins, etc.
should come from their food so that nothing needs to be added.
Sandy

* * * * *

<3 Aug 1998 From Ann M Re  Qs on tapeworm, salmonella, respiratory infection>
>
>Jeffrey Levy, D.V.M., in Williamsburg, Mass says in his Natural Diet for Cats:
>(http://www.blakkatz.com/diet.htm)
>"Some people have concerns that their cats may get salmonella poisoning
>from eating raw poultry or eggs. Cats are not susceptible to salmonella
>poisoning as people are, so it is perfectly safe to feed raw chicken and
>eggs."
>FWIW!
>-- Jean,  Saski the Strong & Amber Pittypat

Gotta disagree.  Vets from Cornell and Purdue plus vets in private practice,
state cats and dogs are prone to salmonella, E. coli and other
microorganisms in raw meat.  Cornell lists cases of this in cats.
Ann

* * * * *

<3 Aug 98 From: Jnglecats@ Re Salmonella>
In a message dated 98-08-03 13:43:47 EDT, you write:
<< Thanks for your info - now I'm concerned again! That means raw egg yolks
 are probably out ... do you treat the raw meat with grapefruit seed
 extract, then?  >>

Jean, I only occasionally treat my meat.  For the most part, I believe that
the likelihood of the cat catching salmonella or other from the poultry is
slim.  I also believe if the cats are exposed to bacteria their immune systems
learn how to fight it off.  I'm also fairly confident that I can get rid of e-
coli and salmonella if they do get it with doses of GSE and homeopathic bowel
nosodes (did this with clostridium, another nasty intestinal tract bacteria).
At the first sign of diarrhea, I'll start dosing them with GSE and
acidopholous, then move on to the nosodes if this doesn't show improvement.

I've fed raw egg yolks before mixed with the ground meat and have had no
problems.  I think it's possible that, because our cats are fed commercial
diets and not exposed to bacteria, that's why when they are exposed they have
such strong reactions.  If they grew up on raw food I feel there would be less
problem.  But few of us have that option!  Can't turn back time.
Lee, Cleo, Kiki, Kelly and the Peach

* * * * *

<29 Aug 1998 From wordlady Re Raw diet!>
Hi all
Hey, I've been feeding Saski and Amber more and more raw meat, they're
getting about half raw and half canned at the moment, and they love it! In
addition to raw chicken, cooked veggies and a bit of cooked grain, they get
1/3 of a large raw chicken wing most days and demolish the whole thing,
bone and all, as quick as a wink. I can't believe how fast it goes down.
They had a little raw chicken liver the other day and adored it.

I've been really careful with Saski but he seems to be handling it just
fine, altho he's still on a lot of hypoallergenic canned food. His stool is
okay and he doesn't seem to be straining as much, not quite as much blood
after he eliminates. He has great energy, is happy and sweet-tempered with
me so I think his tum is feeling just fine, and I don't think he can be in
toooo much pain from his heart, either. Each day he's now getting 30mg
CoQ10, 250mg taurine (soon to be upped to 500) and 1/2 of recommended daily
EFAs in the form of salmon oil, plus digestive enzymes. He still gets badly
out of breath and pants, of course, but I do sometimes think even that has
improved. Perhaps it's my imagination...

Amber thinks the whole idea of raw is pure heaven! I'm so lucky they're
such easy babies to feed.

I've been so enthusiastic about this new diet that I've got my sister and
my neighbour on the same bandwagon! They're going to switch over, too.

Can anyone give me a rough idea of how many cups of ground chicken one
pound would make?

Thanks, everyone, for all your information and support - without it I'd
probably never have had the courage to change over. And darling little
Amber and my very special Saski Basket would thank you if they could.
--Jean, Saski B & Amber

* * * * *

<29 Aug 98 From kashmir Re  Raw diet!>
Hi all
Jean, it's so good to know everything's going well with the kitties and
their raw!  [snip]
 Oh, and approx. 4 cups meat = 1 pound.

Take care, Kathy and the cats

* * * * *

<31 Aug 98 From: "Vick"  Re: Need some help>
Hey Michelle, everyone-

> The problem I have is vomitting.  Every time I try to raise the
> percentage of raw ground beef, one of them throws up.
<<snip>>
> Any suggestions?  Would boiled chicken mixed with some rice be better?
<<snip>>
> Sorry this is so long.  I'm just tired of cleaning up puke and dealing
> with ants.

When I first started trying to feed raw, my Manx kitty, Skippy, puked
up anything raw- no matter how small the quantity. It was frustrating
enough for me to throw in the towel entirely and just use the 'super
premium' "natural" packaged foods.

The next go 'round, I browned ground turkey or chicken as his meat
source, and added digestive enzymes and a sprinkle of slippery elm
powder. Of course this meant adding taurine, but I wasn't cleaning up
puke every day.

After a couple weeks, I just didn't cook the meat anymore. I did
everything the same, added a little extra slippery elm and digestive
enzymes and gave it a shot. He did just fine. (Of course, Sam wouldn't
eat ground meat and Max would starve to death before he ate the food,
but hey, Skippy wasn't puking!)

Starting with cooked meats worked for me. I also bought cheap chicken
and cooked it in my slow cooker for hours. When it cooled, I peeled off
the skin, and put the meat, some of the liquid, and the bones in the
blender with some veggies and a few supplements.

(And believe me when I say that I can sympathize w/ being sick of
cleaning up puke :) )
Vick, Skippy, Sam, (Mad)Max, and Jezebel

* * * * *

<30 Nov 1998 From Michelle Re  Raw Diet>
Hi Everyone -
Back after a long leave of absence. Glad this list is still operational and
very active. We cat people need to stick together. The dog people seem to be
much more aware of the problems associated with a commercial diet and
over-use of allopathic medication and vaccination. I have yet to find a cat
breeder who is going 100% holistic - there are lots of dog people, however.
Those of you who know me, yes, I'm still around and showing my beautiful
black cats.

I am going on five and a half years of feeding my cats a 100% raw homemade
diet, no vaccinations, no allopathic treatment, and knock on wood,
everyone's been really well. Had some problems with one cat, whom the
allo-vet diagnosed as having a liver shunt. I treated her via my homeopathic
vet, it was touch and go, but she recovered and is now in a wonderful pet
home with her sister and a kitten of my last litter. Guess she didn't have a
liver shunt as she wouldn't have recovered from that. Who knows what was
wrong, really doesn't matter. What matters is she's healthy and now has a
lap all her own. I placed her because I felt she'd do better on a more
one-on-one situation.

My household is down to an all time low of seven cats right now, with one
litter on the way the end of January. I show about once a week so my cats
are exposed to the "nasties" in a show hall, but even without the
"protection" of vaccinations, my cats have remained generally fine.

Generally fine means I've had my problems with URI and some skin problems,
all of which cleared up in due time -- naturally. My oldest cat is seven. To
date, I have yet (in the five+ years I've been practicing holistic medicine)
to have a cat with anything major wrong such as kidney disease, diabetes,
dental problems, etc. Hopefully this will be encouragement and incentive for
those of you on the fence about going natural. It does work, even with the
more fragile purebreds.

I have a Bombay (purebred, double grand champion) who was one of the sickest
kitties in the world when I got him -- he was so chronically ill!! After
five years of natural diet and homeopathic treatment, his eyes are now
crystal clear, no snots, no abscesses, and except for some remaining
vestibular disease "tipsies" he's now 100% and the love of my life.

For the person who asked about raw chicken causing problems, no, it does
not. I've had many a cat on raw chicken, and have never had a problem. Sure,
if you can afford it, organic is better, but as long as you feed human-grade
meat, you are fine. Way better than conventional cooked food. Stay away from
the meat that is deemed "not fit for human consumption" by being treated by
charcoal or the like, and of course, the stuff they sell for $.40 a pound at
greyhound tracks. Bad stuff!!

I breed American Shorthairs and have raised three (soon to be four) litters
on a homemade diet. I have avoided conventional vaccinations for these
kittens. They were most likely vaccinated by their new owners, but they were
14+ weeks old when they were sold so their immune systems were well
developed by that time.

My web page, which has been in existence for over a year now, is devoted to
natural cat care and is loaded with information. It is updated weekly.

I was recently asked to write a column for the newsletter for The National
American Shorthair Club on holistic cat care. The recent article is on
dental care which I will share with the list tonight (it's on the home
computer). Apparently it hits on target because after posting it to the
Natural Feline Husbandry list, two people asked to re-post it. It's titled,
Nature's Toothbrush.

Sorry for carrying on. I look forward to participation in the list.
Michelle

* * * * *

<3 Dec 98 From: "Mason" Re Nature's Toothbrush (Bones)>
-----Original Message-----
Aren't you afraid of whatever people get(name escapes me) from eating
undercooked chicken,I won't want my 10 cats vomiting at the same time,I
don't think I have that much slippery elm on hand.
--Donna

Well e. coli is one that people can get and is one of the most often heard
about scare bacteria.  Think about it though, cats in the wild eat all kinds
of disease ridden animals.  They have a amazingly accurate ability to pick
out a weak or diseased animal which is easier to hunt.  They eat meat from
sources which have been left out in the sun and are swarming with flies and
such.  There are tons of bacteria here.  There are tons of bacteria
everywhere.  Yet they have survived for millions of years.  These animals do
NOT have access to stoves, oven or microwaves.  In all likelihood, neither
did your grandparents and great grandparents pets.  Yet many of them lived
to ripe old ages or met their demise in non food related ways.  With any
diet you feed there is always a danger of something or another happening.
In raw foods it is very small.  Ice cream was a more likely source of
trouble among other things such as eggs.  Cats and dogs have a short
intestinal tract which doesn't give the bacteria long enough to get a hold
of them.  They also have incredibly strong digestive abilities, far faster
and stronger than that of humans.  And humans do not exactly have a horrid
weakness to bacteria.  If a person is healthy and has a good immune system
there is no reason they should not be able to handle bacteria, even the e.
coli.  Of course if you have an animal that is not healthy or has a bad
immune system you would want to think twice about this.

Cooking actually lowers the  benefits your animal is getting from the meat.
It also makes the bones extremely brittle and subjects your pet to the horror
of punching holes through the stomach lining.  Non cooked bones are soft.
The next time you are cooking chicken for yourself look at the bone and feel
it.  Try breaking it.  Most likely you can do it without much effort.  It is an
excellent source of absorbable calcium and the bone marrow is wonderful as
well.  If you feel uncomfortable with feeding a BARF diet then contact your
holistic vet and have them walk you through it.

After being told that if I fed my pets anything other than kibble I would be
doing serious harm, being an irresponsible and cruel owner, and such I needed
a LOT of handholding.  I also read a ton of books on the subject.  And if you
are not the squeamish type go find out what you have feed your pet in the
commercial kibble. Compared to some of the stuff in there, a little bacteria
is the least of your worries.  A natural kibble is better, but IMHO a raw
natural diet given to them the way God intended is the very best.

You may or may not see vomiting or loose stools at first.  I have heard people
who have had the hardest time with it and people who have made the switch
from kibble to BARF in one day no trouble.  To make it easier, if you are
using a commercial food, switch to a natural and then start mixing that with
a raw diet.  Keep in mind also that loose stools, gross though it may be,
have a function.  It is the body's way to gets all the nasty gunk our body
does not want out as quickly as possible.  It flushes the system out.  You
should NOT see diarrhea which is quite different and not normal.

When I started giving natural foods I started by giving apple puree to my dog
after he constantly was stealing apples.  I use apple slivers as a treat, although unless it is sauced the animal can't digest it.  No one can eat apples in this house without him landing on their laps.

None of my animals has ever had an adverse reaction to raw foods.  Stools are
smaller, harder and they do not smell as much.  Bad breath is all gone, and all
three had sewer breath.

Gas in my dog, which was bad enough to clear an entire stadium is gone.

My animals have soft, shiny beautiful coats.  They do not shed as much, which
is a blessing for those of us who are allergic to cats and dogs like myself.
Their teeth have gone from plaque to white.  The vet techs where I work saw
my dog and said they have never seen such white teeth on an animal.

They all have more energy, this I could have lived without. LOL  They are able to focus on training better, this goes for the kitties too which know a few tricks.  Even Tasha, my stress puker tabby is maintaining weight despite her constant state of stress and vomiting.

I also give my guys and gals a seameal supplement, which I take also.  Also carrots, apples, green beans, kale, and other vegies to them.  I do hunt so they also get venison, perch, pheasant, ruffed grouse and such.  They love this, and when I am butchering you could not beat them off with a stick to save your life.  They have their favourites, just like any kids. Cinders and Tasha get dibs on the eyeballs, tongue and heart.  The dog heads for the liver and I would not like to be the person to try and separate them. Venison is a low fat, high protein food.  Great for putting weight on a skin and bones animal.  I give it in a ground burger form.  I hope this answered some of your questions, and I know I need to work on NOT writing novels every time I post...  If you want some
web sites let  me know and I will e you some of the best privately.
Sincerely, Amanda

* * * * *

<14 Dec 1998 From wordlady Re  Raw feeders, what do you feed your cats?>
Hi all and Chris
>Do you make fresh batches daily or do you make up batches for later?
>
Forgot to mention, I grind/chop enough meat for about a month and freeze it
in small freezer Ziplock bags. I press the meat flat in the bags, they
freeze quickly that way, and I stack them on their edges - they look like
enormous flat meat cards! This works best in my freezer. Each bag contains
about enough for 2 meals for 2 cats. This way I can thaw it quickly in the
fridge every couple of days - or run cold water over it if I forget. <g>  I
freeze the bones separately so I can give them less often. If I can get
organ meats when I'm doing my freezing I'll mix it in with the food,
otherwise I do it separately and add it 2 or 3 times a week.

I cook the vegs/grains fresh every couple of days and add the supplements
when I feed.

Good luck with your raw feeding, you'll have a great time and your
kitten/cats will adore you.
--Jean, Saski Basket & Amber Sweet T'ing

* * * * *

<16 Dec 1998 From Michelle Re Raw Diets>
Hi guys!
I've been feeding raw since 1993 to my cats, I breed and show American
Shorthairs and have weaned three litters on raw.

I started with Dr. Jeffrey Levy's diet see http://www.blakkatz.com/diet.htm
It's a wonderful diet, but pretty complicated. Maybe Dr. Levy has
stream-lined it. Who knows. I don't use it anymore.

I agree that Pitcairn and Frazier have too much grain in their diets, but
keep in mind when the books were written. McKay wrote hers, then came out
with a new one pretty quickly removing grains. Feline Future is a fine diet,
but a bit hard core. I'm not sure what the owners of the site are trying to
accomplish. It isn't updated much. They sell their food, but only in Canada.
I'm not sure how long they've been feeding raw either.

Cats and dogs probably do not need carbohydrates in the form that we are
feeding them (i.e., brown rice, millet, corn, oats, etc.). Keep in mind
Pottenger's cats. He did his research for over 10 years with over 900 cats
and these cats (on the optimum diet) were fed only raw meat scraps, raw milk
and cod liver oil. No vegetables (unless the cats grazed on grass, which
they probably did as they were in outside pens) or grains. The cats on the
optimum diet survived and thrived.

Don't try to compare what we need to what cats need. Different creatures!
Grains were introduced by pet food manufacturers as fillers. If we didn't
know about grain in commercial cat food, we probably wouldn't be thinking
much about carbohydrates for our cats. I think some people are still trying
to recreate what's in the can, but in a raw diet. Think mouse.

Let's look at a mouse. It contains muscle meat, organ meat, bone, water. We
can recreate that without too much trouble. What gets difficult is what's in
the stomach and the fur, whiskers and tail. Mice, in their wild state, do
not generally eat the above grains, at least they didn't when cats were in
their true wild state themselves. They ate seeds and grasses. Modern day
mice at farms are probably eating horse grain, etc., so that puts us back to
square one. How to recreate the grains, seeds, grasses, etc. in a prey
animal's stomach? You probably can't, anymore than you can make up for the
fur, whiskers, etc. Note, mice have very small stomachs. Our cats aren't
pulling down zebras here who would have a whole pot of grass matter in their
stomachs. There can't even be a teaspoon of digested food in a mouse's
stomach. They aren't very big creatures.

Keep in mind, you are talking to someone who used to make up pots and pots
of grain and veggie mixtures for her cats. I'm surprised my food processor
is still running with the amount of sticky grain I've but through it. I have
three bags of Sojourner Farms Cat Cereal still sitting in my pantry. Guess
it will become mouse food.

I recently purchased The Ultimate Diet. I've known Kymythy for some time now
and I think she's done a lot of work researching the book.

Her diet consists of meat, bone, raw food-processed vegetables, a 50/50
mixture of kelp and alfalfa powder, Vitamin C, flax oil and cod liver oil.
Yes. She talks about raw meaty bones and probably more bone than our cats
will consume, more bone than would be in a mouse. So I cheat. I get bone in
as much as I can (wings, necks, breast bones), and when I can't, use crushed
egg shells for calcium (I run the eggs right through the processor with the
veggies, shells and all [I use organic eggs]). Kymythy breeds Newfs. They
can swallow a cat whole for God's sakes, forget chicken wings!!

Otherwise, the diet makes a lot of sense. Kelp and alfalfa combined have
just about every vitamin in them known to man (this is where you get the
fur, whiskers, stomach content [not to mention the dirt the mouse has been
rolling in]); Vitamin C is for the modern day animal with all it's stress
and exposure to toxins, etc. Flax oil is Omega 3 fatty acids. Cod Liver Oil
is Vitamins A and D. Raw grated veggies is for the contents of the prey
animal's stomach and any grasses or herbs the cat may eat on it's own.

I think that pretty much makes your mouse right there. You just need to
scale down a bit from her book to feed cats. Kymythy does have two cats whom
she feeds right along with her Newfs.

To help boost the health of my females when they are pregnant and nursing, I
supplement them with a mouse a day. I breed the mice and feed them only
organic grains. Mice aren't too fond of brown rice!! Their drinking water is
spiked with Vitamin C. If I had the means to do so, I'd probably feed all my
cats mice, but I don't have the facilities for that amount of breeding.

So, that's what I feed.

Note, I maintain a web site based on holistic cat health at
http://www.blakkatz.com.
Michelle

* * * * *

<07 Feb 1999 From Sandy A Re  pat mckay's rawfood recipe>
katseven@ wrote:
> start.  I also don't add the aloe concentrate as she recommends.  To the
> 1 cup purified water I've been adding 4 drops of GSE.  I also add some
> Unleash digestive enzymes right before serving.

Susan, if u are using GSE long-term, I'll pass along a suggestion that
was made to me - supplement w/ acidophilus just in case good bacteria
are lost along the way.  i dont' know why PMK recommends daily use of
aloe.  I do use it but when I can remember.  I don't believe in giving
anything on a daily basis b/c the body needs a rest, I feel.
>
> RAW FOOD RECIPE: http://home1.gte.net/patmckay/webdoc48.html

Does this sound okay to all of you?  As many of you might remember, I
I went and looked at that site, and the recipe looks pretty much the
same as mine, only sometimes I use a higher meat % than she recommends.

> concerned about Pete since he has been losing weight.  The only choices
> I really have are ground chicken and ground turkey + organ meats (cats
> won't eat beef), so I am thinking of beginning to alternate w/ good canned food
> to give them variety. (I thought maybe Pete was losing weight because

Those 2 should be fine.  Beef seems to be laden w/ antibiotics and
hormones or at least it seems that way here.  So I'm glad my cats don't
like it cuz I don't have to search hi and lo now for hormone-free beef.
I do recommend a grinder; mine does lamb and rabbits very easily.
Doesn't take up much space in the kitchen, btw.

Also, for fellow vegetarians - raw meat surprisingly, doesn't smell at
all.  Cooked meat does, at least to me but not raw..go figure.  So I'm,
grinding the meat myself now.  My mom would be so surprised! LOL
Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

* * * * *

<14 Mar 1999 From: Vick Re the practical side of feeding raw>
Hi all --
> I just recently joined the list and have been reading with interest

Welcome Tamar :)
 
> What type of equipment would someone need to start with?  I've heard
> mention grinding meat and bones, etc.

I use (well, my boyfriend does the hard part) a hand grinder. I actually
borrowed it from his dad, but found it online at
http://www.appliances.com/26505.html (I have item #265-08) I asked Dave
if he thought it was hard to grind and he said not really, and he thinks
I could do it myself, so I imagine you could too :) We buy 2 chickens
and it lasts 2 cats about 2 weeks. I add a little cooked veggie, some
Vitamin C and about 1000mgs of taurine to the whole thing, portion a
days' worth of food into a ziploc and freeze.

> What book(s), websites, companies with catalogs would you recommend
> for the complete neophyte who never entertained the idea of raw
> feeding until joining this list?

The books I love are weak on nutrition.... I have heard that Pat McKay's
book (Reigning Cats and Dogs) and Kymythy Schultzes' book (The Ultimate
Diet) are both very simple, user friendly books for raw diet newbies.

I know of several sites that have a raw diet posted:
http://www.felinefuture.com/library/nutrition/stdrecipe.html
http://www.blakkatz.com/mydiet.htm
http://www.fatpet.com/elvessa/natural.htm#Recipe

But what you'll likely find is they vary, and you'll want more info
about ingredients, supplements and logic applied than one site can give
you. Take the time and compare the info, buy a couple books and make an
informed decision on what's right for your cats. I don't feed grains,
but lots of people do. Some won't feed bones, others won't feed some
obscure veggie for some reason, or will for another... Read and decide
for yourself :)

> Is there a Holistic Cat website with a list of FAQs that would get a
> newbie started?

Not as of yet, but there should be, shouldn't there?

> How much time does it take per day/week to prepare kitty's meal and
> does it have to be prepared fresh daily or can it be made in batches
> and frozen?

I spend about an hour doing all the grinding and whatnot on food prep
day- including clean up. Meal time takes me longer than I'd like,
because I'm still catering to Max and Jez and everyone needs to eat in
different rooms and blah, blah, blah, but it shouldn't really take more
than a few minutes if you portion stuff and freeze it that way....

> And lastly, is this something that even the somewhat squeamish can
> handle?  I suppose it gets easier with time.

Hmmm... a few years back, I use to only buy boneless skinless meats
because I couldn't deal with handling raw meat, ate my steaks well done,
and wouldn't eat chicken unless my parents prepared it for fear of
getting salmonella from someone who wasn't as militant about doneness as
they are. Now I chop up whole chickens, dissect the organs before they
go into the mix, and use my fingers to rip apart chicken frames and
skin. I even break poultry necks in my hands cuz it's easier than
cutting them. I also eat my steaks mid rare and don't sweat the
occasional pink spot in my chicken :) You will get used to it- maybe
even find it interesting to look at all the stuff, see the striations in
the muscle, the chambers in the heart....
Hope my long-winded reply was of some help :)
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

* * * * *

<14 Mar 99 From kashmir Re  the practical side of feeding raw >
Hi all
 what kind of equipment would
>do this that would be affordable for someone on a limited budget (and

Tamar, the most complicated piece of machinery I have is my food processer,
which I use for veggies. What I do is throw in the veggies, add the eggs,
then the supplements (bone meal, etc). I dump it all into a big bowl, add
the meat and mix it with my hands. Yes, really truly, and I used to *never*
handle raw meat. I'd dearly love to have a grinder but my budget is really
tight too, so that's out for now. If you don't have a food processer, you
could probably even use a grater for the veggies (though that's a lot of
work by hand), or a blender if you have one.

>What book(s), websites, companies with catalogs would you recommend
>for the complete neophyte who never entertained the idea of raw
>feeding until joining this list? Is there a Holistic Cat website with
>a list of FAQs that would get a newbie started?

As with Vick, my fave books don't have recipes. The best book for the
beginner (my opinion) would be Diane Stein's _Natural Remedy Book for Dogs
and Cats_. It's a bit preachy in parts, but definitely informative. As for
recipes, the feline future foundation's recipe is the one I currently feed.
If you go to their site you'll see a pretty simple straightforward recipe --
it's recently been updated, and I'm still feeding the old version, which I
can pass on to you if you like.

>How much time does it take per day/week to prepare kitty's meal and
>does it have to be prepared fresh daily or can it be made in batches
>and frozen?

I double the feline future recipe, and it usually lasts about two weeks. The
prep time depends on whether I'm having fun :) If I'm enjoying myself and
being creative I can stretch it out for a couple of hours. Usually it only
takes an hour or less. It takes more time in the beginning, till you find
your groove and get a routine. I freeze in little cream cheese or sour cream
containers, which is enough for about a day or so of food, and thaw as I
need it. Someone noted not to add supplements before freezing, but I just
add everything at the same time so I don't have to do anything but take it
out of the container when I feed the cats. I get lazy and sometimes even
that's a chore :)
    Your cat has cancer, right? There are those who would caution you to
either treat the meat with GSE as we were discussing earlier, or to lightly
cook the meat before you feed Pilar because of the compromised immune system
which may not be as adept at handling raw meat. I don't cook for Kashmir and
did only briefly even when she had cancer, but it's a judgement call. Since
I don't cook for the cats I can't really give you precise instructions, but
I'd *think* you could lightly cook the meat, cool it down a little, then add
all the veggies and supplements and freeze as usual.

>And lastly, is this something that even the somewhat squeamish can
>handle?  I suppose it gets easier with time.

It really does get easier. I'm completely fanatical about cleaning up both
before and after, and more so now even than I used to be. But the actual
handling of the meat gets a lot easier. Before our raw adventures you
wouldn't catch me handling raw meat with my hands *ever*. No how, no way.
Now, as I said with fanatical cleaning after, it's no big deal. I soak all
the prep dishes immediately after using them, and then when I've got the
food made and put away I rinse the dishes and wash them properly.
    I hope this helps some. Read, read, read all you can and do your
research, and it really will get easier when you feel more confident :)
Take care,  Kathy and the cats