Following are selected posts to the Holisticat (TM) Mailing List on the subject of feeding cats mice and rats. There's a lot of information here, and the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utilize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!

Happy hunting :)

<24 Feb 1999 From: Vick Re Live mice>

Hey everyone --

<<Phoned a couple of reptile pet stores about mice <<snip>>
Anyway, young live adults sell for $1.79 (Can. $) each at  one store, $1.99 at another. Tres expensive for every-day feeding.>>

There is a place that sells them frozen by the pound: http://www.gourmetrodent.com/ they're actually about 20 minutes from me, but I think they gave me a hard time about wanting to come by and get a small (paid-for) sample to see if the cats would eat it.... They also sell rats, chicks and rabbits frozen, too. Dunno what the look like when ya get 'em, tho..... a buncha frozen mice might make even ME queasy, and my big strong grinding man has said he will not grind whole mice :(

<<And think of the non-stop interest and excitement generated  for the cats as they hunt down their prey all over the apartment!>>

I bought the boycats a mouse about a year or so ago. Thought it would improve Sam's attitude toward other cats if he could take his frustrations out at dinner on the hoof. It was a tragic failure. I eventually had all 3 boycats together on the porch and it took them 30 minutes to traumatize and bludgeon the mouse to death :( and then no-one ate anything but the tail.... Ahhh, a sad day indeed for the once mighty hunters.

I was considering trying again, as Jez shows some promise, and since she is a girlcat, maybe her maternal instinct will kick in and she can show the traumatic trio of boys how it's done....

Bottom line, don't count on your furkids killing mice.

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

I have fed mice to my cats.  I breed mice for my reptiles and so they are readily available.   As far as diet for the mice, I use a commercially prepared one like Nutriphase and also make their meals( got recipe off the internet... email me if you want it ).. then I add dog food here and there.  I sometimes add wheat bread with milk to a pregnant mouse's diet.  Then sometimes raw fruit.  The key is variety.  They all seem healthy and active.  I don't feed live mice to my cats or my snakes... yes, the cats seem to enjoy the non-living mice as much as the live.   I was very surprised.  My dog has gotten a couple mice too.   I think regular worming would be important if you fed mice.  Unfortunately many feeder mice in petstores have worms.  I've even gone as far as to have the stools of my mice checked... all negative, but it's something to think about.

Am I nuts or what? ha. <grin>

Maggie

I actually thought I had it all written down... but I don't, but here is the website address where I got it:
http://members.aol.com/Reite/MouseGuide.html#Feed

That is just information about food -- this is their website homepage with more useful information on keeping mice:
http://members.aol.com/Reite/ReitesRodentRoadshow.html

I know there are mailing lists for mice and a newsgroups... just some other places to find information.  But -- don't say what you are breeding them for. :) If you have any further questions on keeping mice, let me know.

Maggie

I've been breeding and feeding live mice to my cats now for about a year and a half. I started just feeding them to the pregnant/nursing cat(s); but now I've got four or five converted "monsters" who kill and eat mice.

I purchase them at a local reptile store in bulk (100) for $.50 each. As the pregnant/nursing cat will happily eat a dozen (or more) mice a day, it gets expensive. I do breed them as well, but I cannot keep up with the demand.

Breeding mice is a lot of work and they stink!!

I'm experimenting with rats right now. I've tried small rats (maybe 3 months old or so), but my cats won't kill them. Only one will eat them. I have a pregnant rat now and I'm hoping they'll eat them at 1-3 weeks old. Otherwise I'm stuck with two rats that my boyfriend's girls are now attached to.

I feed the mice and rats grains and seeds that I get from a local feed store. The grain is crimped oats, the seeds are sunflower, millet, etc., etc., it's actually bird seed (with no additives). I feed the same mixture to my guinea pigs and rats. I also add Vitamin C to everyone's water, no tumors in the mice when I do that.

Feeding live mice is not for the faint of heart and many of our domestic cats have lost the instinct to kill and eat mice. They will play with them and torture them (which I don't allow). My cats know that now so when they get a mice, they know they had better kill and eat it, or loose it.

One of my cats (Kali, a DSH) killed and ate mice right off the bat; my Bombay, Wiley, gradually learned to kill and eat them, he's the only one who  will eat rats; my second American Shorthair queen, Moon, now kills and eats them; the mother of my current litter, Trompe, started when she was pregnant with her first litter. My remaining cats, two DSH and one American Shorthair (my stud cat) won't touch them.

Do I notice a difference in my cats from eating mice -- the perfect food? Maybe in the queen with the litter of kittens that was born January 28. They seem more vibrant than the last two litters. The queen is eating almost 100% mice (with straight muscle meat [nothing added] in addition to the mice). Only time will tell as the kittens get older. They are four weeks old today and seem much more advanced than past litters. The others probably aren't eating enough to show any difference. Wish I could feed them 100% mice, but it's too expensive.

Regarding grain. A mouse's stomach is very small so there isn't much grain there for a cat to eat. Also, in the wild, the grain that a mouse would eat is not anything like the grain recommended in the Pitcairn and Frazier diets (brown rice, oatmeal, etc.) In the wild, a mouse would eat seeds and grasses. Remember, in Egypt, the grains used then are nothing like the grains we use now.

You do need to take into account the fur, whiskers, claws, etc. of the mouse, and who knows what nutrients are contained in fur, whiskers and claws. Fiber is one thing. I use a kelp and alfalfa powder combination in my diet. Kelp and alfalfa powder contain just about every nutrient known to man so I think I'm covered in that respect. Bone can be brought in either through real bone or bone meal powder or egg shells. I use flax seed oil and either fish body oils or cod liver oil. Lastly I add Vitamin C (even though cats can make it) to help the cat deal with stress and environmental toxins.

If you purchase frozen mice, rats or rabbits, which is a good option for cat food because you can grind them into cat food, find out first how the animals were killed. There's different types of gassing, some of which may be toxic. Same deal on the day old chicks. I believe the CO2 method is safe. I like to buy mine live and give them a week or so on healthy food before feeding them. Many mass breeders of mice and rats feed them crap food, which is defeating the purpose of feeding our cats healthy food in my mind. Mice in the wild wouldn't eat dog food (which is what a lot of breeders feed their mice) or lab blocks. Look at the ingredients on a bag of mouse feed.

Also, careful who you tell what you are going to feed these mice to. For some reason, it's okay to feed them to snakes and other reptiles, but feeding them to cats is not acceptable to some people. I've had pet stores refuse to sell them to me when I told them they were going to be fed to a cat.

Michelle BLAKKATZ Cattery

Sandy writes:
<<In Celeste Yarnall's book, she mentions that a mouse is 55% dry crude  protein.  <<snip>>

I wonder where Celeste gets that tidbit of information? Sounds like what you need to feed a furnace, not a cat.

<<So how much moisture does a mouse's body have?  Anyone know? Cuz  based on that, we can figure out how much protein a kitty who eats mice  would get in his/her diet.  Course a lot of the mouse's body ain't very usable nutritionally - like the tail, fur, etc.>>

Tail & fur = fiber, probably some protein.

<< kitty doesn't eat the mouse's tummy, then not only is s/he not getting grains, but maybe not much in the way of veggies either. In that case, 90%  may not be too far off.>>

I have never seen my cats, who eat mice for food, not for games, remove the stomach (or any other part of the mouse for that matter). They eat everything!! And don't let anyone tell you that cats chew their food. Mine will often eat mice whole!! Sometimes they do manage to cut them in two pieces, but often they suck them down like a snake.

Keep in mind the domestic cats that are hunting and killing rodents and either not eating them or disecting them are probably not hungry and doing it for the fun.

I may have a way of finding out what a mouse is comprised of. I'll see what I can do.

I agree 90% protein is way too high. As the brochure from Feline Future says, and I quote loosely, "cats don't hunt for pot roasts in the wild". There's more to prey animal than protein.

Michelle

I can't put my finger on the reference in Anitra Frazier's book, but she says that squash family plants (pumpkin, cantaloupe, melon, etc.) are part of big cats' diets in the wild.  Could it be for the stool-softening effect necessary to desert cats?  I never would have believed it until I saw my cat choose fresh-roasted acorn squash over her raw food.

Next point:  I did feed my cat a live mouse.  It was a horrible experience for me.  I felt guilty at the pet store, I felt cruel when I gave it to the cat, and I even identified with the poor mouse when the cat *played* with it for awhile before killing it.  In my imagination, it was like the hopeless feeling I have of being over-powered by something destructive in a relationship or the workplace.  I had to pray for forgiveness even though rationally I know that God made predators too.  I'm no wimp either, but
participating in hurting something...  And I'm a military officer!

Then the darned cat would not eat the mouse till I ground it up.  This was exceedingly, beyond description, repulsive.  I had to disinfect everything to feel like I could use the kitchen again.

Here's the only good part:  The cat ate the whole thing  --  tail, fur, and all  --  in one sitting with great gusto.  She is never that eager to eat her regular raw food.  The mouse was about twice the size of her normal meal serving, but she didn't vomit the overload.  She seemed really satisfied and turned her nose up at breakfast.  Maybe she was still full, maybe she wanted
another mouse.

There must be stuff in a mouse that she really likes.  Maybe that is the ideal protein ratio.  Maybe there are proteins from organ meats that are missing from the regular raw recipes, like brains, pancreas, lungs, etc. I'm glad you are bringing this up, because I want to do what is best for her long term health.  I'd rather buy frozen, ground up mice though.  [shudder]

I ran into this post (don't know when the initial discussion started) and I can provide the following info taken from a thesis by Heiner Klose, University of Hannover (Germany). He analyzed whole rats/mice (however without heads and intestinal tract) they used for a feeding trial.

Rats are
68.29% water
20.7% protein (or 65.26% dry matter basis)
6.71% fat (21,16)
2.89% ash (9,11)
0.066% Sodium
0.095% Potassium
0.827% Calcium

Mice
62.02% water
18.99% protein (or 50% dry matter basis)
10.46% fat (27.34)
4.29% ash (11.29)
0.09% Sodium
0.106% Potassium
1.573% Calcium

Hope this helps.
Christine

There was no smell when grinding the mouse.  And he wasn't dirty so you don't have to worry about that either.  I don't think snake owners would put up with substandard quality feeders for their very expensive pets.  I asked about the mouse's background to be sure I wasn't introducing fleas, disease, parasites...  which is laughable when I remember what gets "transmitted" with grocery store cat food.  But you know how natural raw food is the unknown and I'm afraid of the unknown like anyone else.  This mouse was reared locally for lab work and they had an over-supply that they passed on to the pet shop.  The cage smelled clean and the mouse looked healthy.  The price was $1.49 for a meal, so that is high.  I don't think the Indianapolis mouse population needs to worry.  Count yourself lucky to have someone willing to do the grinding for you!

Dawn Marie wrote:
<<There was no smell when grinding the mouse.  And he wasn't dirty so you  don't have to worry about that either.  I don't think snake owners would put  up with substandard quality feeders for their very expensive pets.  I asked  about the mouse's background to be sure I wasn't introducing fleas, disease,>>

There's always a chance of round worms from cats eating mice. I wouldn't worry much about it, or about parasites from rabbits. Cats eat both in the wild. A healthy cat will repel parasites. If they get worms, then deal with it. Otherwise, just keep feeding the healthy food.

FraDCat wrote:
<<This stuff about feeding mice is worth pursuing.  I just don't think I could  turn loose a live mouse and watch the aftermath.  Call me a wimp, but I can't  do it.  Michelle, can I send Liam & Fiona to dine w/ your cats for a week?>>

Sure. There's a resource on the web, I'll have to find it, but it seems like a very good place to buy frozen mice and rats. They have answers to all your questions, i.e., what do the mice/rats eat, how are they killed, frozen, etc. Minimum order is $75. If you guys are willing to grind mice or rats (I would get young rats, just weaned or younger, not adults), then this would be were I'd get them. I'll post the url later when I find it. Nice web page too.

I would like to go with frozen myself, to eliminate having the live buggers in my house, but that sort of defeats the purpose, don't you think? But if you have cats that won't eat whole (or live) mice, then grinding them is the way to go. Maybe you could start with the grinding, then try whole.

[snip unrelated]

Michelle

Here's the supplier I thought looked good: http://swrodents.com/

Adult Mouse:
19.8% Protein
8.8% Fat
.84%Ca
.61%Phos
2.07KCAL/gm

Frye, FL. Reptile Diseases: An Atlas of Care and Treatment, 1991. White, J. Basic Wildlife Rehabilitation, 1988